How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On Monday, 7 September 2015 07:19:10 UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
Is anyone doing basic training in Duos? The DG1000 is just fine (especially with the 18m tips). The Duo would be no problem in the air, but unsprung undercarriage doesn't seem like a good idea for student landings.

Bruce, how many flights does it take to get to solo using the DG1000 ?

At my club, we have a youth camp of 3 weeks duration where we train using 2-33's. We solo our kids usually around 24-28 flights. The 2-33 is a tough ship and can handle the abuse, a great workhorse.

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 1:30:50 AM UTC+3, C-FFKQ (42) wrote:
On Monday, 7 September 2015 07:19:10 UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
Is anyone doing basic training in Duos? The DG1000 is just fine (especially with the 18m tips). The Duo would be no problem in the air, but unsprung undercarriage doesn't seem like a good idea for student landings.

Bruce, how many flights does it take to get to solo using the DG1000 ?

At my club, we have a youth camp of 3 weeks duration where we train using 2-33's. We solo our kids usually around 24-28 flights. The 2-33 is a tough ship and can handle the abuse, a great workhorse.

We sell a 40 flight "Pre-paid to solo" package (with disclaimer of course), but most younger people (up to 40ish?) do get there by 40 flights.

And then, of course, they're already rated in high performance glass. How many total flights does it take to train in a 2-33 and then convert to modern glass?

24 - 28 is way lower than our average even when we were using Blaniks, so perhaps we have different goals. I soloed on flight 31 (at age 22) and that was below average.

But then our field is not that huge (600m), surrounded by housing, and we do a lot of soaring flights when the opportunity arises during training including flying on gusty windy ridge/wave days when we don't expect a student (even a post-solo one) to be able to handle the tow or landing. We pretty much expect people to be able to do a 30+ minute flight as soon as they are solo, not just a quick circuit.

The number of flights to solo did increase a bit when we moved to Twin Astir (original retract ~38:1 model), though not as much as we expected, possibly because the average flight time got a lot longer. I don't think we observed any measurable difference going from Grobs to DG1000.

We put people in the PW5 after five or so solo flights in the DG1000.

Am Dienstag, 8. September 2015 00:30:50 UTC+2 schrieb C-FFKQ (42):
On Monday, 7 September 2015 07:19:10 UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
Is anyone doing basic training in Duos? The DG1000 is just fine (especially with the 18m tips). The Duo would be no problem in the air, but unsprung undercarriage doesn't seem like a good idea for student landings.

Bruce, how many flights does it take to get to solo using the DG1000 ?

At my club, we have a youth camp of 3 weeks duration where we train using 2-33's. We solo our kids usually around 24-28 flights. The 2-33 is a tough ship and can handle the abuse, a great workhorse.

I've been training ab-initio students in Ka7, Twin Astir, Janus B and ASK21, and I haven't seen any significant difference in how long it takes to solo.

I can't imagine how you would attract people to gliding if you offering them to train in a 2-33... It's the year 2015. ASK21 are very tough workhorses, and an repairs on glass ships are *much* easier and faster done than on wood and fabric. That's one of the main reasons clubs in Europe changed from training in Ka7 and ASK13 to ASK21 - almost maintainance free, and cheap to repair.

But I guess that states of mind are quite different on both sides on the pond: From what I learned, you can get a glider licence in the US without having thermalled once, and you can be trained by instructors who have no XC experience at all. In Europe, that would just be impossible.

We typically try to "snatch" the youngsters, starting from age 14, and we offer them training up to their first 50 or 100 km solo (well, we have to as it is mandatory). And we don't teach people to glide, but to soar. A 2h solo flight is mandatory before they move on to initial XC training.

All of this is not seen as "additional barrier", but part of the game.
And we dont threat them with 2-33 or 1-26. In modest clubs, a beginner is trained in an ASK13 and then moves on to Ka8 and Ka6, and then relatively quickly to some glass club class glider. In my club, our fleet is 2x ASK21, 2x DuoDiscus, 2x LS4 and 2x LS-18-18 for about 50 actively flying members, and days where you won't get a seat in one of these ships are extremely ra There are about 15 private ships owned by club members. We have a total of 9 instructors, all with XC experience, two of them doing 700 km through the Alps on a regular basis.

And no, we don't have the problem that our membership is declining.

So what sort of fee structure do you have at your club to support all of those aircraft? Initial buy in cost? Monthly dues? Price per tow? Price for use of each plane?

2-33: $8-10k
ASK21: $80k (???)
Duo: $100k
LS4: $40k



In my club, our fleet is 2x ASK21, 2x DuoDiscus, 2x LS4 and 2x LS-18-18 for about 50 actively flying members, and days where you won't get a seat in one of these ships are extremely ra There are about 15 private ships owned by club members. We have a total of 9 instructors, all with XC experience, two of them doing 700 km through the Alps on a regular basis.

And no, we don't have the problem that our membership is declining.

If you want to be a member, you need to buy a share worth $400. If you want to leave, the club will buy it back at the same price. (I take 1 CHF = 1 US$).
Annual membership fee is $500-600.
Cost per hour is $20-40. However, you can buy 30h block for $700, or unlimited hours for $1400.
Tows are expensive because (1) we pay the fuel with $10/gal or more, and (2) we have to get from 400m MSL to 2000m MSL in order to connect with thermals. At $5-6/min, a tow is typically $100. Early students pay $30-40 for their 600m AGL tows. We can't operate a winch on our field (700 m rwy, gliders, SEP, helicopters, commercial parachuting operation, high-power lines parallel to the runway).
Each member is required to supervise operations for 1 or 2 days per season (that is, making sure that things run well on the ground). That does not include instruction. Each member is also required to participate 1 weekend per winter in glider maintainance (it typicall takes a team of 4 for 1.5 days to do annual maintainance of one glider).
Instructors don't do ground service or maintainance (well, they are at least not required to...), but they spent 5-10 days per season instructing. Instruction is for free.
We sell introductory rides (something like $200 for 1 hour); that and the tows is what brings in the biggest part of the funds.

Bert
Ventus cM TW

Am Dienstag, 8. September 2015 14:38:38 UTC+2 schrieb :
So what sort of fee structure do you have at your club to support all of those aircraft? Initial buy in cost? Monthly dues? Price per tow? Price for use of each plane?

2-33: $8-10k
ASK21: $80k (???)
Duo: $100k
LS4: $40k

We need to inspire our Jr glider pilots to go beyond a "pattern license." Most of them never actually experience "true soaring!" This is our fault. At current, the goal we set for these pilots is achieving a "glider license" which actually includes zero cross country skills, training or experience. The goal should be (for all clubs, all instructors and all commercial operations) to get all new glider pilots (especially Jrs) comfortable, confident and p
PROFICIENT with flying cross country. Sure, some are not going to achieve this goal. So what?

Clubs, in my opinion, are almost exclusively focused on rides and basic training (no cross country). In fact, most U.S. Soaring Clubs have almost zero interest in inspiring or developing cross country skills for their students. In order to improve on our present course, U.S. clubs must be re-tooled and refocused on a new goal (less trainers, more cross country able gliders for members to train in and rent). When a new student comes along, the conversation should not be how do we get you your glider license, it should be how do we build you into a cross country soaring pilot capable of competing in your first soaring contest! The license itself should not be the goal, the first 100km solo cross country should be the goal!

Train how you fight, fight how you train. This is such a fantastic quote, perhaps the best I have ever learned. In other words, we are getting exactly what we are asking for in U.S. soaring circles today. We are getting pattern pilots who do not stick with or progress further in the sport. It is no surprise that pilots move on when the sport (for them) is limited to flying around the home airport. Most new glider pilots in the U.S., unsurprisingly, eventually get bored and go do something else. We wonder why we are failing (in terms of growth and development) and why all the effort we are putting into basic training at our clubs is producing fewer pilots who stick with a sport which is, to them, essentially pattern sleigh rides.

Glider clubs build their "business" on whipping new students (members) thru this primary training cycle. They are happy as pigs in mud when the gliders are flying locally and generally have no concerns that no cross country is being conducted. In fact, many clubs actively discourage cross country ("in club ships"). Heaven forbid a "club" glider is not on the ground for the next revenue producing rental time!

We need to fundemetally chance our priorities, mindset and strategy. We need to change almost everything about our current way of thinking about glider training. Clubs, instructors and especially the SSA's goals and strategy. We are a marketing disaster that should be taught in graduate schools actually. On so many levels...

Again, Great Britain just hosted its nearly 70 strong youth gliding national championship. They have this kind of attendance year after year! Meanwhile, the USA does not even have a single Jr soaring event and the USA has only a handful of youth pilots who are capable of contest or real cross country soaring. In short, WE SUCK! Can anyone tell me when the last Jr contest was held in the USA? The USA is SIX TIMES the size of the UK. So don't tell me geography. We should have 6 regional youth events of equal size (NE, SE, S, NC, NW, SW) in the USA just to be equal to Britian. Don't tell me we can't. We have not even tried.

The first step is holding on US Jr Nationals with 20 pilots in 2016. An achievable goal.

The second step is "changing the guard" and getting some new leadership capable of truly inspiring our youth pilots to go further and motivate them to take the sport of soaring to its full potential. This is at every club and within the SSA. Does your club leadership have a cross country development strategy? Does your club even care about cross country or is cross country entirely outside of their focus? Does your club have statistics on cross country utilization? A strategy? Youth? Adult? What percentage of newly licensed pilots achieve a cross country badge in the first 1-2 years after being licensed? Is your club a success or a failure?

Unfortunately, right now, cross country training is far beyond the capabilities and comfort zones of most clubs and instructors. We have to begin digging out of this hole someday. Why not start now?

Or, just stay the course? Keep bumbling along into oblivion.

Will 2016 be any different that 2015? I wonder...