Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

Wow! Great posts. I'll need time to read it all. Thanks.

We have an auto-tow rig in Ionia that has been used on rare occasion. Recently, a clinic was done in Cadillac and it was quite successful from what I understand. A number of people got sign offs, etc. But then it died again.

Tow pilot lobby? Ha!

Send them to Moriarty so I can step down from towing. It may be fun for
time builders or youngsters but, for me, it's just plain underpaid work
which takes time away from my soaring.

On 10/5/2015 11:27 AM, Sean Fidler wrote:
Wow! Great posts. I'll need time to read it all. Thanks.

We have an auto-tow rig in Ionia that has been used on rare occasion. Recently, a clinic was done in Cadillac and it was quite successful from what I understand. A number of people got sign offs, etc. But then it died again.

My honest opinion. Aerotowing is popular because the tow pilot lobby likes flying tow planes for free, building hours, etc. We should be auto-towing more! Especially in early training. It's a safe, viable and great option and if done with great care (as aero and winch are) it could be really impactful to lowering costs and increasing the number of youth pilots being trained.

I think the public would get a kick out of seeing cars towing up gliders at airports! There is just something cool about it!

Anyway...back to work.

--
Dan, 5J

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 5:52:29 AM UTC+11, Dan Marotta wrote:
Tow pilot lobby?* Ha!



Send them to Moriarty so I can step down from towing.* It may be fun
for time builders or youngsters but, for me, it's just plain
underpaid work which takes time away from my soaring.




On 10/5/2015 11:27 AM, Sean Fidler
wrote:



Wow! Great posts. I'll need time to read it all. Thanks.

We have an auto-tow rig in Ionia that has been used on rare occasion. Recently, a clinic was done in Cadillac and it was quite successful from what I understand. A number of people got sign offs, etc. But then it died again.

My honest opinion. Aerotowing is popular because the tow pilot lobby likes flying tow planes for free, building hours, etc. We should be auto-towing more! Especially in early training. It's a safe, viable and great option and if done with great care (as aero and winch are) it could be really impactful to lowering costs and increasing the number of youth pilots being trained.

I think the public would get a kick out of seeing cars towing up gliders at airports! There is just something cool about it!

Anyway...back to work.





--

Dan, 5J

Paid tow pilots? I wish...
Oh, I forgot, this is the USA

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 12:27:24 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
Wow! Great posts. I'll need time to read it all. Thanks.

We have an auto-tow rig in Ionia that has been used on rare occasion. Recently, a clinic was done in Cadillac and it was quite successful from what I understand. A number of people got sign offs, etc. But then it died again.

My honest opinion. Aerotowing is popular because the tow pilot lobby likes flying tow planes for free, building hours, etc. We should be auto-towing more! Especially in early training. It's a safe, viable and great option and if done with great care (as aero and winch are) it could be really impactful to lowering costs and increasing the number of youth pilots being trained.

I think the public would get a kick out of seeing cars towing up gliders at airports! There is just something cool about it!

Anyway...back to work.


I'm an enthusiastic advocate of ground launching, however, at least in the U.S., tow planes provide operational flexibility that winches and auto launch do not. Towplanes can operate out of fields that are too short/narrow for ground launch operations (getting your winch line out of trees is no fun).. Try to take a winch somewhere besides the home field. It can be anything but straightforward to insure a winch for transport and operation anywhere but your home field. Getting permission for ground launching at a different field can be difficult (someone else mentioned in another thread about the lost opportunity to have glider operations to ever be accepted as normal in the U.S.). Not to mention being able to choose a launch height, aero retrieve/transport of gliders, contest towing, etc.

We do need more ground launching in the U.S., but most of our clubs and commercial ops cannot afford time and/or money to do both aerotow and ground launch other than as an occasional exercise.

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 5:59:07 PM UTC-6, WB wrote:

I'm an enthusiastic advocate of ground launching, however, at least in the U.S., tow planes provide operational flexibility that winches and auto launch do not. Towplanes can operate out of fields that are too short/narrow for ground launch operations (getting your winch line out of trees is no fun). Try to take a winch somewhere besides the home field. It can be anything but straightforward to insure a winch for transport and operation anywhere but your home field. Getting permission for ground launching at a different field can be difficult (someone else mentioned in another thread about the lost opportunity to have glider operations to ever be accepted as normal in the U.S.). Not to mention being able to choose a launch height, aero retrieve/transport of gliders, contest towing, etc.

We do need more ground launching in the U.S., but most of our clubs and commercial ops cannot afford time and/or money to do both aerotow and ground launch other than as an occasional exercise.

All of these objections to winch launch have been put to rest. If you want to see small field winch operations, use Google Earth to look at European, particularly German, glider airports. Many are as short as 1000m and surrounded by trees. Just pick club names from OLC and enter them in the GE search field.

Winch launch will never drop the rope anywhere except right in front of the winch unless the rope breaks which is getting very rare with ultra-strong ropes.

If a pilot really thinks a distant tow is necessary, then use a sustainer from a winch launch.

SSA group insurance offers winch coverage for traveling to and operating at any airfield.

From the guy who ran the Cadilac auto-tow camp last year...

"Auto-tow pointers" - Cadillac, MI camp

Gliders: ASW12, ASK21, ASW15, RS15, and some others
Tow vehicle: Late model Ford Fairmont, V8, 305 cubic inch
Tow rope: Initially, dacron 1500 ft The next year spectra 1500ft
Runway length 5200 ft (field elevation - 800 msl)
Average altitude gain 1000 to 1200 ft (occasionally 1500ft)
Get away rate for cross country: 75%

Highlights:
Six pilots auto-tow launch endorsed in one day and a 12-year annual (Thank you Stan & Carol)
Over 100 hours of XC in the 12 from auto-tow in 1 yr

Lowlights: introduced to a club with many solo pilots, not many tow pilots, and left the unit with them for a year. They never used it!

Auto-Tow unit description: 1500 ft.rope on a reel powered by a Ford starter motor 1950's vintage (exposed shaft beyond motor housing) controlled by a dead man type switch. Reel in time about 1 minute. Easily fits in trunk. The emergency release mechanism is a larger copy of Schweizer tow release mounted to a hitch with a rope to the driver. The driver has radio communication to glider. The driver is any person that is willing. The driver is instructed to accelerate smoothly until glider lifts off and then add 5mph unless told otherwise. Normally, this meant (after glider lift off) full to the floorboard (and to remember that the runway does have an end!).

Note: the glider has a window that, if looked out of, shows the whole operation. So remind the driver as you see her, or him nearing the end.

For those of you that think this technique is not proper well, ok. For those that are willing, this is a way to launch sailplane with: 1) less cost and 2) no need for a tow pilot or tow aircraft. This auto-towing technique is ideal for any "club" with a willing group of two or more. Oh yes, the safety checks were performed on all gliders used. They all had properly functioning, carefully inspected tow releases.

sidenote - one fine lady got to boast that she jerked three guys off and kept them all up at the same time

Sean (still shaking my head at the sidenote).
7T

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 7:32:02 PM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
From the guy who ran the Cadilac auto-tow camp last year...

"Auto-tow pointers" - Cadillac, MI camp

Gliders: ASW12, ASK21, ASW15, RS15, and some others
Tow vehicle: Late model Ford Fairmont, V8, 305 cubic inch
Tow rope: Initially, dacron 1500 ft The next year spectra 1500ft
Runway length 5200 ft (field elevation - 800 msl)
Average altitude gain 1000 to 1200 ft (occasionally 1500ft)
Get away rate for cross country: 75%

Highlights:
Six pilots auto-tow launch endorsed in one day and a 12-year annual (Thank you Stan & Carol)
Over 100 hours of XC in the 12 from auto-tow in 1 yr

Lowlights: introduced to a club with many solo pilots, not many tow pilots, and left the unit with them for a year. They never used it!

Auto-Tow unit description: 1500 ft.rope on a reel powered by a Ford starter motor 1950's vintage (exposed shaft beyond motor housing) controlled by a dead man type switch. Reel in time about 1 minute. Easily fits in trunk. The emergency release mechanism is a larger copy of Schweizer tow release mounted to a hitch with a rope to the driver. The driver has radio communication to glider. The driver is any person that is willing. The driver is instructed to accelerate smoothly until glider lifts off and then add 5mph unless told otherwise. Normally, this meant (after glider lift off) full to the floorboard (and to remember that the runway does have an end!).

Note: the glider has a window that, if looked out of, shows the whole operation. So remind the driver as you see her, or him nearing the end.

For those of you that think this technique is not proper well, ok. For those that are willing, this is a way to launch sailplane with: 1) less cost and 2) no need for a tow pilot or tow aircraft. This auto-towing technique is ideal for any "club" with a willing group of two or more. Oh yes, the safety checks were performed on all gliders used. They all had properly functioning, carefully inspected tow releases.

sidenote - one fine lady got to boast that she jerked three guys off and kept them all up at the same time

Sean (still shaking my head at the sidenote).
7T

The former Enstone GC in the UK used autotow for several years. Parafil was used as it could be dragged along the tarmac without appreciable wear. Parafil is not pulley friendly (they tried). It was easily spliced.
Case study, http://linearcomposites.net/media/pa...e_study_13.pdf

The club moved on to winches before we wore out the parafil. 1500ft plus launches were done on a 500m length using an XJ-6 Jaguar with 275hp. We just pulled it back to the launch point at 65mph. Near tangled though we did snag a couple of things in the tall grass on the north side of the runway.

That engine replaced the 150hp Bedford diesel in one of the ex-ATC winches. Another winch was refitted with the motor and transmission from a stolen Rolls Royce that was burned on the airfield one night.

I don't think the third ex-ATC winch was ever put into service before the club folded.

Maybe some lurker knows the fate of those winches.

Frank Whiteley

The former Enstone GC in the UK used autotow for several years.
Parafil
wa=
s used as it could be dragged along the tarmac without
appreciable wear.
P=
arafil is not pulley friendly (they tried). It was easily spliced.
Case study,
http://linearcomposites.net/media/pa...e_study_13.pdf

The club moved on to winches before we wore out the parafil.
1500ft plus
l=
aunches were done on a 500m length using an XJ-6 Jaguar with
275hp. We
jus=
t pulled it back to the launch point at 65mph. Near tangled
though we did
=
snag a couple of things in the tall grass on the north side of the
runway.

That engine replaced the 150hp Bedford diesel in one of the ex-
ATC
winches.=
Another winch was refitted with the motor and transmission from
a stolen
=
Rolls Royce that was burned on the airfield one night.

I don't think the third ex-ATC winch was ever put into service
before the
c=
lub folded.

Maybe some lurker knows the fate of those winches.

Frank Whiteley

I learned to fly at Enstone in the late 70s but my recollections of
parafil are very different. Once the outer sheath had been worn
through on retrieves the cable broke on about 1 in 5 launches.
Since we were using scrapper cars we mounted the cable
attatchment in the middle of the roof. This solved the problem of
lifting the weight off the rear wheels when towing.
We also built a special which used a Ford Transit pickup with a mid
mounted 4.2litre Jaguar engine. We retained the original axle which
gave us very good acceleration but a top speed of about 60mph.

I now fly at Lasham which used to use Autotow. We now use
modern winches which give better and safer launches to 1700-
2000ft on a normal day. The cost of buying, maintaining and
running costs of autotow were much higher than the winch in the
UK. Gasoline about $7.50 a gallon here. Winch runs on LPG.

At 12:43 06 October 2015, Nigel Pocock wrote:

The former Enstone GC in the UK used autotow for several years.
Parafil
wa=
s used as it could be dragged along the tarmac without
appreciable wear.
P=
arafil is not pulley friendly (they tried). It was easily spliced.
Case study,
http://linearcomposites.net/media/pa...e_study_13.pdf

The club moved on to winches before we wore out the parafil.
1500ft plus
l=
aunches were done on a 500m length using an XJ-6 Jaguar with
275hp. We
jus=
t pulled it back to the launch point at 65mph. Near tangled
though we did
=
snag a couple of things in the tall grass on the north side of the
runway.

That engine replaced the 150hp Bedford diesel in one of the ex-
ATC
winches.=
Another winch was refitted with the motor and transmission from
a stolen
=
Rolls Royce that was burned on the airfield one night.

I don't think the third ex-ATC winch was ever put into service
before the
c=
lub folded.

Maybe some lurker knows the fate of those winches.

Frank Whiteley

I learned to fly at Enstone in the late 70s but my recollections of
parafil are very different. Once the outer sheath had been worn
through on retrieves the cable broke on about 1 in 5 launches.
Since we were using scrapper cars we mounted the cable
attatchment in the middle of the roof. This solved the problem of
lifting the weight off the rear wheels when towing.
We also built a special which used a Ford Transit pickup with a mid
mounted 4.2litre Jaguar engine. We retained the original axle which
gave us very good acceleration but a top speed of about 60mph.

I now fly at Lasham which used to use Autotow. We now use
modern winches which give better and safer launches to 1700-
2000ft on a normal day. The cost of buying, maintaining and
running costs of autotow were much higher than the winch in the
UK. Gasoline about $7.50 a gallon here. Winch runs on LPG.

For info.
The RR engine powered winch is at north wales gliding club, we are
putting it back in service as our chevy powered winch destroyed its
gearbox last sunday with wave all over the site so the pw6 pilot the only
launch of the day managed to get a nice wave flight, so the RR will get
another lease of life starting this week end with a bit of luck.
KF.

On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 6:45:08 AM UTC-6, Nigel Pocock wrote:
The former Enstone GC in the UK used autotow for several years.
Parafil
wa=
s used as it could be dragged along the tarmac without
appreciable wear.
P=
arafil is not pulley friendly (they tried). It was easily spliced.
Case study,
http://linearcomposites.net/media/pa...e_study_13.pdf

The club moved on to winches before we wore out the parafil.
1500ft plus
l=
aunches were done on a 500m length using an XJ-6 Jaguar with
275hp. We
jus=
t pulled it back to the launch point at 65mph. Near tangled
though we did
=
snag a couple of things in the tall grass on the north side of the
runway.

That engine replaced the 150hp Bedford diesel in one of the ex-
ATC
winches.=
Another winch was refitted with the motor and transmission from
a stolen
=
Rolls Royce that was burned on the airfield one night.

I don't think the third ex-ATC winch was ever put into service
before the
c=
lub folded.

Maybe some lurker knows the fate of those winches.

Frank Whiteley

I learned to fly at Enstone in the late 70s but my recollections of
parafil are very different. Once the outer sheath had been worn
through on retrieves the cable broke on about 1 in 5 launches.
Since we were using scrapper cars we mounted the cable
attatchment in the middle of the roof. This solved the problem of
lifting the weight off the rear wheels when towing.
We also built a special which used a Ford Transit pickup with a mid
mounted 4.2litre Jaguar engine. We retained the original axle which
gave us very good acceleration but a top speed of about 60mph.

I now fly at Lasham which used to use Autotow. We now use
modern winches which give better and safer launches to 1700-
2000ft on a normal day. The cost of buying, maintaining and
running costs of autotow were much higher than the winch in the
UK. Gasoline about $7.50 a gallon here. Winch runs on LPG.


Interesting. I can only recall 2-3 repairs. We knotted the dacron in a protective rubber bumper. We did move in winches within a year, so I really only had a single season with the parafil. Enjoyed the Jag though.

Frank Whiteley