Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

One reason winch or auto tows are not more popular is that you are released over the airpark. In an aero tow you can be towed to the lift before releasing. Yes, I know usually on soft days there is a thermal just as one turns downwind to base, but that is not the best place to thermal.

One reason winch or auto tows are not more popular is that you are released
over the airpark. In an aero tow you can be towed to the lift before
releasing. Yes, I know usually on soft days there is a thermal just as one
turns downwind to base, but that is not the best place to thermal.

Hmmm...

I suspect this "truth" is more a statement of "the way aerotows normally are"
than "the realities of usable lift distribution." Reality as a self-fulfilling
prophecy, maybe?

In any event, BTDT insofar as brain-picking for "local knowledge" and
"locations of house thermals," but my experience throughout launch sites
(mostly aerotow) in the intermountain west (mostly Colorado and New Mexico)
has me concluding I can't think of one locale where it's *necessary* to "tow
over there" in order to find usable lift. Sure, some plains sites along the
east slope of the Colorado Rockies tend to start later than a tow into nearby
uplands, but my observation has been very few of the locals routinely take
advantage of that fact when time of launch is considered as a function of
release point. IOW, many tows "go to the hills" just because they can, and not
because it's necessary. Every single one of my launch sites has had convective
lift with easy reach of "above pattern height" releases, for ships of the
ubiquitous 2-33-35:1 performance range.

As for auto towing (exposed to that before winching, I was), popularity (or
lack thereof) has to do - so I reckon - with lack of familiarity; neither auto
towing or winching have been "popular" ("common" is probably a better
descriptor) in the U.S. because whatever critical mass may once have existed
disappeared when "cheap towplanes" became the norm after WW-II. Where they
exist(ed), my experience has been both were "hugely popular."

Bob W.

When I started ground launching, I was told that the glider taking off
often kicks off a thermal is there was a bubble of warm air that the
glider passed through. Because of that, on my ground launch safaris, I
always made a U-turn after release and flew back down the runway. I got
away every time from about 700'. Maybe I was just lucky...

On 10/9/2015 4:30 PM, BobW wrote:
One reason winch or auto tows are not more popular is that you are
released
over the airpark. In an aero tow you can be towed to the lift before
releasing. Yes, I know usually on soft days there is a thermal just
as one
turns downwind to base, but that is not the best place to thermal.

Hmmm...

I suspect this "truth" is more a statement of "the way aerotows
normally are" than "the realities of usable lift distribution."
Reality as a self-fulfilling prophecy, maybe?

In any event, BTDT insofar as brain-picking for "local knowledge" and
"locations of house thermals," but my experience throughout launch
sites (mostly aerotow) in the intermountain west (mostly Colorado and
New Mexico) has me concluding I can't think of one locale where it's
*necessary* to "tow over there" in order to find usable lift. Sure,
some plains sites along the east slope of the Colorado Rockies tend to
start later than a tow into nearby uplands, but my observation has
been very few of the locals routinely take advantage of that fact when
time of launch is considered as a function of release point. IOW, many
tows "go to the hills" just because they can, and not because it's
necessary. Every single one of my launch sites has had convective lift
with easy reach of "above pattern height" releases, for ships of the
ubiquitous 2-33-35:1 performance range.

As for auto towing (exposed to that before winching, I was),
popularity (or lack thereof) has to do - so I reckon - with lack of
familiarity; neither auto towing or winching have been "popular"
("common" is probably a better descriptor) in the U.S. because
whatever critical mass may once have existed disappeared when "cheap
towplanes" became the norm after WW-II. Where they exist(ed), my
experience has been both were "hugely popular."

Bob W.

--
Dan, 5J

On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 10:05:15 AM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
One reason winch or auto tows are not more popular is that you are released over the airpark. In an aero tow you can be towed to the lift before releasing. Yes, I know usually on soft days there is a thermal just as one turns downwind to base, but that is not the best place to thermal.

If you can get 2000' - 2500' over the airport, there's no need for a distant tow. If you disagree, get a turbo.

If you can find a thermal, why aero tow? If you can't, there probably aren't any so why aero tow?

On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 5:59:49 PM UTC-5,
If you can get 2000' - 2500' over the airport, there's no need for a distant tow. If you disagree, get a turbo.

If you can find a thermal, why aero tow? If you can't, there probably aren't any so why aero tow?

Well, if your glider field is only 2400' long, with a highway at one end and a road at the other, you pretty much have to aero tow. We would love to have a winch at SLSA, but our field is just too short, and we have 2 nice Pawnees and a nice 180 Supercub, and our tows are cheap - so THAT is why we don't use a winch (trust me, we have looked at it and done the math...).

But for clubs that have access to a nice long airport, I agree that a modern winch is definitely the way to go!

Kirk
66

kirk.stant wrote 2015/10/10 at 01:54:

Well, if your glider field is only 2400' long, with a highway at one
end and a road at the other, you pretty much have to aero tow. We
would love to have a winch at SLSA, but our field is just too short,
and we have 2 nice Pawnees and a nice 180 Supercub, and our tows are
cheap - so THAT is why we don't use a winch (trust me, we have
looked at it and done the math...).

But for clubs that have access to a nice long airport, I agree that
a modern winch is definitely the way to go!

if it's this location:

,1389m/data=!3m1!1e3

= then you could - if according to local laws / rules, which I don't
know - perhaps place the "launching runway" (I don't know the correct
term in english) a bit more in the east, where your grass strip is
longer, so you could start respectively winch from a point more in
south. The distance between plane and winch would grow to about 2,900
ft., if Google does measure it correct. That's not worse than at our place:

,1102m/data=!3m1!1e3

About 2,600 ft. distance between winch and starting point, and the
options of emergency land-outs are not really better than yours, if
I estimate this right from the google map's view.

We almost only use a winch to launch our gliders ... winch has 2 drums,
7 mm steel cable, a 330 hp Turbo Diesel engine with torque converter and
fixed transmission. Max. release height is up to 1,500 ft. (wood: K8,
K6) or about 1,100-1,200 ft. (glass ships), depending on wind speed,
winch driver's and pilot's skill :-)

Given a good day, XC distances flown from our field are up to 1,000 km -
given a bad day, just training pattern.

regards
Werner

On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 2:19:37 PM UTC-5, Werner Schmidt wrote:

if it's this location:

,1389m/data=!3m1!1e3

= then you could - if according to local laws / rules, which I don't
know - perhaps place the "launching runway" (I don't know the correct
term in english) a bit more in the east, where your grass strip is
longer, so you could start respectively winch from a point more in
south. The distance between plane and winch would grow to about 2,900
ft., if Google does measure it correct. That's not worse than at our place:

,1102m/data=!3m1!1e3

About 2,600 ft. distance between winch and starting point, and the
options of emergency land-outs are not really better than yours, if
I estimate this right from the google map's view.

We almost only use a winch to launch our gliders ... winch has 2 drums,
7 mm steel cable, a 330 hp Turbo Diesel engine with torque converter and
fixed transmission. Max. release height is up to 1,500 ft. (wood: K8,
K6) or about 1,100-1,200 ft. (glass ships), depending on wind speed,
winch driver's and pilot's skill :-)

Given a good day, XC distances flown from our field are up to 1,000 km -
given a bad day, just training pattern.

regards
Werner

Werner,

You found us! Yes, we could use 2600 of the current runway for taking off (the threshold is displaced for landing over the road, that doesn't apply for takeoffs). We have looked at that - and so far the consensus it that it just isn't worth the effort.

We have talked about trying to get a winch demo at our field to find out it we should look more carefully at a winch - but as we already have 2 nice Pawnees, there is not much interest.

As an aside, one of the disadvantages of using aero tow is that everybody gets used to 3000' tows and can't thermal down low! Even on booming days I'll tow them through the house thermal at 2000' but they will grimly hang on then release in sink, spot on 3000' agl. Arrggghh!

But I will bring up your point at our next club meeting (tomorrow) - maybe we can get some interest going. I for one would love to have a winch option!

(But I do love towing with the Pawnee... ;^)

Cheers,

Kirk

Didn't somebody have a winch down near St.Louis? I doubt you'll find a Demo winch in the midwest. Cross Country up in Faribault might come to you but it will cost a mint. What you might do is form a group to go and do some site visits and clinics. You might ask them to simulate your field length. No matter what you discover you won't change the minds of the "experts" but you will learn a lot and you'll be suprised at some of those who do convert. Our club started a project about 2 years ago and we will be taking delivery of our winch in a month or so. Our runway is about 3000ft long.
It can be done...
-Doug

I did my first 100+ flights as a private pilot on auto two. In Hobbs we used a 2000 ft wire, on 8000 ft of paved runway. In Odessa we used a 1200 ft poly rope on a 5000 ft paved runway. On the short rope we could get a launch of 800-900 feet in a 1-26. It was fun, and cheap! The best thing ( other than the price) was the fact that you had to get good at scratching around in whatever you could find. Those "scratching" skills have come in handy a few times for sure!

If you have a long paved runway, 5000 ft or more, auto tow is a great way to fly.


John

kirk.stant wrote 2015/10/12 at 22:21:

You found us!

wasn't too hard :-)

We have talked about trying to get a winch demo at our field to find
out it we should look more carefully at a winch - but as we already
have 2 nice Pawnees, there is not much interest.

Fuel still too cheap? ;-)

(But I do love towing with the Pawnee... ;^)

Oh, I understand, however i'm not flying powered planes :-)

As an aside, one of the disadvantages of using aero tow is that
everybody gets used to 3000' tows and can't thermal down low! Even on
booming days I'll tow them through the house thermal at 2000' but
they will grimly hang on then release in sink, spot on 3000' agl.
Arrggghh!

Yeah. Arrggghh. I like the winch; it's more of a sport and it's training
your skills. And I also like to sit on the winch and launch my fellow
pilots!

But I will bring up your point at our next club meeting (tomorrow) -
maybe we can get some interest going.

Ah, and now, how did it work out?

Regards
Werner