Can't buy them all, choosing between ASW19 vs LS1 vs PIK20

Or, I could turn this around and say the PIK 20A and B have only landing flaps and land like a glider should land. Not the crazy, screaming down the runway tail first touchdowns you get with spoilers only ships.

Said with tongue firmly in cheek, for all those who fly spoiler only sailplanes. :-)

Steve Leonard

Have you been making progress on the glider which gives you a third type of landing experience?: No spoilers, no large deflection flaps but only a tail chute that doesn't always deploy when you want it? :-)

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 1:33:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Or, I could turn this around and say the PIK 20A and B have only landing flaps and land like a glider should land. Not the crazy, screaming down the runway tail first touchdowns you get with spoilers only ships.

Said with tongue firmly in cheek, for all those who fly spoiler only sailplanes. :-)

Steve Leonard

Have you been making progress on the glider which gives you a third type of landing experience?: No spoilers, no large deflection flaps but only a tail chute that doesn't always deploy when you want it? :-)

Was wondering the same thing. Heard the trailer was damaged in a storm, hope the glider itself is in good shape.
Perhaps Steve would part with a glider for our potential buyer, PAGA.
Don't think there's any of the listed gliders in Steve's fleet, though.
(PAGA, I liked flying LS1F but still think the 19 is your glider)
Jim

PAGA,

You didn't specify which LS1. Seems like the discussion is about the "f" model, but don't forget the earlier versions.

I have a "c" model (that was converted to a "d" model solely by the issuance of a letter from LS saying "these gliders are now "d" models...)

I think my glider flies just fine and is easy to assemble. Unlike the "f" model, connecting the ailerons and spoilers is easily done through a hatch in the turtledeck. I think on the "f" you have to reach behind the spars to make the connections and it helps if you have eyeballs on your fingertips. Is that right?

Sure, the "f" has a single piece, front hinged canopy. It also has a "standard" horiz stabilizer with separate elevator whereas the "c" has the all-flying stabilator. I've heard people talk how twitchy that all-flying stab is, but I don't find it so. I can trim and release the stick and it will just fly on nicely without departing into the "death spiral." In a smooth thermal, it will stay circling hands free. At least long enough for me to do whatever I need both hands to do. Fold a map. remove a wrapper from a pack of nabs, etc.

So, I would suggest to look at the "c" and "d" models of the LS1, too.

Ray

Nope, I have not made any significant or noteworthy progress on the '12. Will send you links to some pictures, Jim.

As for other sailplanes, I do have a "19". Well, a Kestrel 19. Bigger cockpit, you won't likely find. Longer wings, you can find, but heavier, maybe not.

I love big deflection flaps, but am hesitant to recommend them to others. I see too many people flying them "wrong". At least, in my opinion. Too many people fly the entire approach slower "because the stall speed is lower". The plane should not be level coming over the fence with the flaps down 45 degrees. And then they claim "You can't retract the flaps if you get low". And that goes off into a whole other discussion. A B model PIK could be a perfect match for you, but not knowing you, I will make no such recommendation.

The AS-W19 is the start of the heavier generation of Std Class Glass. The LS-1 is from the lighter weight Glass Generation. The 19 will likely cost you more up front, but might be easier to sell if you want to move on. All depends on how you price and advertise it. There are lots of LS1-C/D for sale in Europe. Generally around 10K Euro. Paying too much for something generally only means your cost of operation is higher. Paying too little give higher operating cost and higher frustration levels trying to fix all the things that were wrong with what you got.

I like the lines of the LS1-c/d. I also like the lower "get in the door" cost. If you are looking only an an LS1-f or the 19, I would lean towards the 19, as I think it is slightly more capable for the same dollars invested..

Steve Leonard
Amateur Glider Collector

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 11:29:25 PM UTC+3, Steve Leonard wrote:
I love big deflection flaps, but am hesitant to recommend them to others. I see too many people flying them "wrong". At least, in my opinion. Too many people fly the entire approach slower "because the stall speed is lower". The plane should not be level coming over the fence with the flaps down 45 degrees. And then they claim "You can't retract the flaps if you get low".

Yes, that's dumb and I never understood people who claim this.

The approach speed should always be calculated from the clean stall speed, not the full flap stall speed! Then you can safely put the flaps up and down as much as you want.

You do need to remember to adjust the glider's attitude when you do it otherwise, yes, you will "sink" if you bring the flaps up. When I was regularly flying a flapped glider I practiced at altitude quickly going in and out of landing flap without a change of G loading. It's not that hard, but you do have to know to do it.

Indeed I should have said more specifically that I was considering a nice LS-1c/d
Also I am looking at a very nice DG-100G, but I have not seen it in the flesh (yet).
I went to see the ASW-19 and it is like you said, but that one needs a new coating.
As for the PIK, this is an ongoing project, so far the LS-1c/d has my full attention.

Thanks again for all the feedback here.

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 12:48:26 AM UTC-4, PAGA wrote:
Indeed I should have said more specifically that I was considering a nice LS-1c/d
Also I am looking at a very nice DG-100G, but I have not seen it in the flesh (yet).
I went to see the ASW-19 and it is like you said, but that one needs a new coating.
As for the PIK, this is an ongoing project, so far the LS-1c/d has my full attention.

Thanks again for all the feedback here.

PAGA,
I've had my LS1-c for about 21 years now. If you questions, don't hesitate to ask.

As for performance: The easiest way to get better performance out of my LS1-c is to let a better pilot fly it! I found out that works great. Cheap, too!

Ray

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 1:24:42 PM UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 12:48:26 AM UTC-4, PAGA wrote:
Indeed I should have said more specifically that I was considering a nice LS-1c/d
Also I am looking at a very nice DG-100G, but I have not seen it in the flesh (yet).
I went to see the ASW-19 and it is like you said, but that one needs a new coating.
As for the PIK, this is an ongoing project, so far the LS-1c/d has my full attention.

Thanks again for all the feedback here.


I would look at the DG101G before buying one of the others. If the gelcoat is original it will probably be Schwabelack which is unlikely to craze and shouldn't land you with a refinishing bill down the line. The wings are effectively the same as the ASW 19 as both are derived from the D-38. The 101 variant has a modern one piece canopy and conventional tailplane (unlike the earlier DG100s).

John Galloway

Yes please, could you tell me more about the DG-100G ELAN vs the DG-101?
The LS-1c is definitively at the top of my list, but I would look at another ASW.

Regards - Paga

The original gelcoat on our club's mid 80's DG-300 was completely shot by last year and we had it repainted. DG finish quality may have been somewhat variable. The glider was not pampered but neither was it abused. Any DG or LS that wasn't produced by DG Flugzeugbau will be subject to the annual fee but on the other hand Pacific Aerosport has provided my club with extremely good support for our two DG's (the 300 is subject to the fee, the 505 isn't).