Is FLARM helpful?

I think the reason that gliders for sale are not Flarm equipped is that their owners rather keep the Flarm and move it to their new ships, since once you fly with one you will never want to fly without it.

Ramy (With handful of Flarm saves in over 1000 hours with Flarm)

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 5:26:50 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
I think the reason that gliders for sale are not Flarm equipped is that their owners rather keep the Flarm and move it to their new ships, since once you fly with one you will never want to fly without it.

Ramy (With handful of Flarm saves in over 1000 hours with Flarm)

Agree 100% with Ramy. I had a portable PF in my Discus 2b, and when I sold it in early 2012, I kept the PF for my new LAK....As far as close calls, many of the folks that fly at Moriarty have had PowerFlarms since 2011 and I do believe it has been a major enhancement to safety. It has personally alerted me on several occasions over the past 5 seasons to gliders coming head on at high speed especially under cloudstreets. These alerts allowed me to alter my course and avoid any potential conflict. This past season we had an incident where two gliders came within 20-30 feet from each other and they never saw each other until the very last second. One glider had a PF and one did not....The pilot who did not have a PF went out and bought a PF immediately...

Finally, I do fly with a transponder and a PF as do many other folks at Moriarty. The use of transponders is also extremely important in our area as there is a fair amount of jet traffic passing over the area as they descend into Albuquerque. Albuquerque approach is very aware of gliders at Moriarty using 1202 on their transponders. When they "see" us they do try to route the airlines away from us and/or try to keep them above 18K as they pass west bound over the Moriarty area. Once past Moriarty they then allow them to descend into Albuquerque....This does really help minimize potential conflicts. Now, be safe out there! Thx - Renny

At 12:26 24 November 2015, Ramy wrote:
... (With handful of Flarm saves in over 1000 hours with Flarm)

Interestingly, my experience is just the opposite: in 1593 hours in
the French Alps since 2007 (only 208 hours of which were without
Flarm), I have had no relevant alert from Flarm but hundreds of
false alarms. However I have experienced several dangerous or
very dangerous events (and many more daft ones) which can only
reasonably be ascribed to Flarm - or rather the false expectations
that some pilots seem to have of it.
The most stupid of these was two gliders simultaneously overtaking
me at speed from directly behind on a ridge, one each side, at
exactly my height, and with a horizontal separation of about a
wingspan. Fortunately, I had insisted that my pupil did *not* take
evasive action from the Flarm-announced threat, pointing out that
we might just turn into the path of the (imagined) single overtaker.
(I presume that the 2 overtakers thought "they know we're coming,
so they won't do anything stupid"!)
In the 2000+ hours in the Alps before Flarm I saw no such
dangerous behaviour; nor in the 208 hours 'gap' without Flarm in
2008.
Of course, nothing can be proved. But enthusiasts for Flarm should
be aware it has its down-sides.

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 9:45:06 AM UTC-8, James Metcalfe wrote:
At 12:26 24 November 2015, Ramy wrote:
... (With handful of Flarm saves in over 1000 hours with Flarm)

Interestingly, my experience is just the opposite: in 1593 hours in
the French Alps since 2007 (only 208 hours of which were without
Flarm), I have had no relevant alert from Flarm but hundreds of
false alarms. However I have experienced several dangerous or
very dangerous events (and many more daft ones) which can only
reasonably be ascribed to Flarm - or rather the false expectations
that some pilots seem to have of it.
The most stupid of these was two gliders simultaneously overtaking
me at speed from directly behind on a ridge, one each side, at
exactly my height, and with a horizontal separation of about a
wingspan. Fortunately, I had insisted that my pupil did *not* take
evasive action from the Flarm-announced threat, pointing out that
we might just turn into the path of the (imagined) single overtaker.
(I presume that the 2 overtakers thought "they know we're coming,
so they won't do anything stupid"!)
In the 2000+ hours in the Alps before Flarm I saw no such
dangerous behaviour; nor in the 208 hours 'gap' without Flarm in
2008.
Of course, nothing can be proved. But enthusiasts for Flarm should
be aware it has its down-sides.

Really James, I suspect something is very wrong with your Flarm.

I have approximately 1000 hours with PowerFlarm and have not experienced any issues with false alarms. 6 camps and contests with as many as 65 gliders.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

At 18:03 24 November 2015, Richard wrote:
... Really James, I suspect something is very wrong with your
Flarm. ...

Interesting thought. That would mean a fault in the Flarm
algorithms, or (highly improbable) a bad but operable installation of
the Flarm firmware. And, BTW, more than one Flarm unit was used
over those years.
J.

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 11:16:35 AM UTC-8, James Metcalfe wrote:
At 18:03 24 November 2015, Richard wrote:
... Really James, I suspect something is very wrong with your
Flarm. ...

Interesting thought. That would mean a fault in the Flarm
algorithms, or (highly improbable) a bad but operable installation of
the Flarm firmware. And, BTW, more than one Flarm unit was used
over those years.
J.

Since you've owned several I guess it's safe to say there's more benefit than downside.

I'd be hard pressed to say I've ever had a false alarm - I guess it depends on how you define such a thing. If you mean an alarm when there were no other gliders in the air I would definitely look at whether you need to replace the hardware or firmware. If you mean you got an alarm for a glider in the area that you didn't think was an immediate threat you might consider 'competition mode' which sets the collision parameters tighter before issuing an alarm. We all have our comfort zone, but I'd be dubious about reports of alarms where that projected flight paths of the gliders involved weren't crossing within the radius of error that the algorithm assumes. As you may recall, Flarm projects curving flight paths, so you don't need to be on a straight-line converging path to generate an alarm. In a busy thermal you'll get lots of alarms, but the flying is so dynamic that the threats can come and go with regularity. It's not so much a false alarm in that case, but a transient conflict and probably not super-helpful, but technology has its limits in the analog world.

If the OP is considering whether to equip with Flarm I'd say if you intend to fly with other gliders, get one and if the other gliders don't all have them already, organize a group purchase.

I've had lots of useful alarms. I'd wager at least one prevented me from taking the silk elevator home.

9B

One thing to point out is that James is likely referring to the European Flarm while most of us referring to Powerflarm which I understand is superior especially in the user interface side (butterfly display etc) and as such I believe better visually distinguishing between alerts and collision alarm..

Ramy

Am Dienstag, 24. November 2015 23:59:45 UTC+1 schrieb Ramy:
One thing to point out is that James is likely referring to the European Flarm while most of us referring to Powerflarm which I understand is superior especially in the user interface side (butterfly display etc) and as such I believe better visually distinguishing between alerts and collision alarm.

Ramy

I have about 1600 hours flying with the European Flarm in the French and Swiss Alps, and I have had more than one occasion where the Flarm warning solved a very hairy situation. I also have had many false alarms, but I can live with that - I'd always take a false positive over a false negative.
On the technical side, I take good care that my antenna coverage is acceptable in any direction (which requires more than one antenna on a carbon fuselage).

Bert
Ventus cM TW

At 22:59 24 November 2015, Ramy wrote:
One thing to point out is that James is likely referring to the
European
Flarm while most of us referring to Powerflarm which I
understand is
superior especially in the user interface side (butterfly display
etc) and as such
I believe better visually distinguishing between alerts and collision
alarm
Ramy

Indeed, I have not come across a Powerflarm unit, and don't know
what the differences are. But I don't feel that there is any
ambiguity in 'European' Flarm indications.
J.

At 21:44 24 November 2015, Andy Blackburn wrote:
... Since you've owned several I guess it's safe to say there's
more benefit
than downside. ...

Sorry to disappoint: I haven't owned any. These were 3 different
units in 2 club-owned two-seaters, flown in the French Alps
where Flarm was mandated by all the clubs in the area.

On balance Flarm *may* indeed be beneficial. But the purpose
of my post was to point out that there *are* significant
downsides. Pilots should be aware of these and avoid indulging
in gratuitously risky practices, under the illusion that Flarm will
protect them. They should also avoid making vigorous evasive
manoeuvres in response to Flarm alone: it is imperative to see
the threat before making anything other than a gentle
manoeuvre, perhaps a small wing-waggle to aid conspicuity.
This applies not only to threats from behind / blind spots. I am
sure that vigorous manoeuvres (unexpected by the other pilot,
who could see that the situation was under control) will result in
collisions - or perhaps already have ("such a shame ... and they
both had Flarm")

Finally I should say that my initial expectation of Flarm (and
BTW I love the technology!) was that it would significantly
reduce effective lookout - I'm afraid that's just my view of
human nature. That may or may not have happened - how could
I tell? However, as soon as I flew with Flarm, I was shocked to
discover what crazy manoeuvres other pilots were making,
which I had not experienced before, and which disappeared
when I next flew without Flarm.

... I guess it depends on how you define [false alarm] ...

No, I didn't mean warnings given about empty space! I meant
collision warnings about a glider opposite me in the thermal, or
established in another, distant, thermal, or 500+ feet above or
below, etc. In other words, when no collision risk existed or
developed, regardless of how 'competitive' I felt.

J.