Is FLARM helpful?

On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 3:26:42 PM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Tuesday, 1 December 2015 10:18:11 UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

Continuing the argument, Nephi has conducted a well attended no accident contest (yes, I know it is OLC but try to explain that to a jury) for the last two years, setting tasks and posting the results and requiring Flarm. For the 2016 Nationals in Nephi the SSA has mandated Flarm, but intentional and with forethought, decreased the safety and situational awareness provided by the available and mandated technology.

As one of the organizes for the 2016 Nephi Nationals I would like to set the record straight.

1) There have been 3 years of OLC events in Nephi and in 2014 there was also a SSA sanctioned regional competition.

2) We, the organizers, submitted a waiver request to the SSA competition and rules committee to have Power Flarm Mandatory. This is the actual request that was submittted

PowerFlarm mandatory

Request - Make PowerFlarm (PF) mandatory for all gliders flying within the contest. As far as PF mode is concerned we would leave it in open or standard mode.

Reasoning - Safety. The last 3 years PF has been mandatory at the Nephi based OLC/XC camps with very positive feedback. Also many of the gliders that flew in the 2014 Region 9 contest utilized PF in standard mode with positive comments. The second aspect of safety pertains to the TCAS functionality provided by PF.

Response from the waiver request - Waiver is granted. It was the decision of the Rules Committee that for 2016 National contests, any Flarm use shall be in stealth mode

There was more in the response but I believe it is best for that to come out in meeting minutes published by them.

Hmm, I wonder what will happen when I show up with an ADS-B out. My new glider is equipped with a certified ADS-B out unit, probably first such installation in a glider in US. I will see all transponder traffic including gliders miles ahead and so will everyone else around me who has PowerFlarm installed. There will be plenty of transponder equipped gliders at Nephi. Will RC ban me from contests? Stealth mode will not be worth much then. Time to move on with times or maybe RC will ask me to get the ADS-B out of my glider, hmm can you imagine that...

On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 2:27:36 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:.

Hmm, I wonder what will happen when I show up with an ADS-B out. My new glider is equipped with a certified ADS-B out unit, probably first such installation in a glider in US. I will see all transponder traffic including gliders miles ahead and so will everyone else around me who has PowerFlarm installed. There will be plenty of transponder equipped gliders at Nephi. Will RC ban me from contests? Stealth mode will not be worth much then. Time to move on with times or maybe RC will ask me to get the ADS-B out of my glider, hmm can you imagine that...

Well, that puts two flies in the ointment. One is that you can't, by FAR, turn off your ADS-B Out if it is part of your transponder - 1090ES Out. If you have one installed, the FAA requires it to be on. The second is that anyone else flying at Nephi with a transponder installed is required by FAR to turn it on. If I understand the specs for ADS-R (by which transponder returns are uploaded to ADS-B aircraft), you will have a 30-mile radius of targets provided to you. Need to check that.

I will be interested to see what the resolution of the traffic information is. I can't wait so see your installation.

Congrats on being the first I know of to get this done.

9B

On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 11:15:46 PM UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 2:27:36 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:.

Hmm, I wonder what will happen when I show up with an ADS-B out. My new glider is equipped with a certified ADS-B out unit, probably first such installation in a glider in US. I will see all transponder traffic including gliders miles ahead and so will everyone else around me who has PowerFlarm installed. There will be plenty of transponder equipped gliders at Nephi. Will RC ban me from contests? Stealth mode will not be worth much then. Time to move on with times or maybe RC will ask me to get the ADS-B out of my glider, hmm can you imagine that...

Well, that puts two flies in the ointment. One is that you can't, by FAR, turn off your ADS-B Out if it is part of your transponder - 1090ES Out. If you have one installed, the FAA requires it to be on. The second is that anyone else flying at Nephi with a transponder installed is required by FAR to turn it on. If I understand the specs for ADS-R (by which transponder returns are uploaded to ADS-B aircraft), you will have a 30-mile radius of targets provided to you. Need to check that.

I will be interested to see what the resolution of the traffic information is. I can't wait so see your installation.

Congrats on being the first I know of to get this done.

9B

I am expecting the delivery of my Phoenix Motorglider in January. It will be equipped with a Dynon Skyview system, including ADS-B IN and 1090ES ADS-B OUT. I am installing an extra battery so the system will be fully operational during soaring flight. This system will let me see not only other ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft, but also ALL other Mode C and Mode S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible by ATC (assuming I am in range of a ADS-B ground station). Virtually every other Phoenix that has been delivered in the US in the last year or so has this avionics setup.

As ADS-B OUT becomes more and more economical (Dynon has announced a 2020 compliant ADS-B OUT GPS source for under $600), it is only a question of time before the FAA will mandate that all aircraft, including gliders, UAVs, Balloons, etc.. be equipped with ADS-B OUT beacons. That will make this stealth mode argument totally moot.

On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 9:15:46 PM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:
If I understand the specs for ADS-R (by which transponder returns are uploaded to ADS-B aircraft), you will have a 30-mile radius of targets provided to you. Need to check that.


Correction: Here are the details of TIS-B services for aircraft with ADS-B Out and an ADS-B ground station in range - which is pretty much everywhere in the continental US once you're above a couple thousand feet. I believe aircraft with ADS-B In, but not properly-configured ADS-B Out, will be able to receive TIS-B traffic information including traffic with UAT and 1090ES ADS-B Out as well as transponder-equipped radar targets, so long as they are in range of a ground station that is broadcasting to any aircraft that does have properly configured ASD-B Out to request TIS-B services - which is to say you can "listen in" on TIS-B traffic rebroadcasts meant for another aircraft - it'll just be traffic in a 15 nm radius around them, not you.

I think that means that if you are flying near Andrzej you'll see everything he sees - but I need to check what Flarm will put on the dataport and whether there is anything special about TIS-B traffic packets that would cause them not to be passed along by Flarm.

I thought it would be another year or two before these installations started showing up.

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/library/...Smart_ADSB.pdf

Relevant passage:
Traffic Information Service-Broadcast (TIS-B): This air traffic advisory service provides
the altitude, ground track, speed and distance of aircraft flying in radar contact with controllers and within a 15-nautical-mile (nm) radius, up to 3,500 feet above or below the receiving aircraft's position. It can be received on both UAT and 1090 MHz. A general aviation aircraft equipped with ADS-B In can also receive position data directly from other aircraft broadcasting on the same ADS-B Out frequency. In addition, TIS-B enables pilots to see aircraft equipped with transponders flying nearby even if those aircraft are not equipped with ADS-B Out.

I find it interesting that the FAA has selected 15 nautical miles as the appropriate range for TIS-B aircraft target situational awareness yet on this forum, there are folks who want to argue that 2 km is all that is needed. Providing that 15 NM range comes at a square law cost in terms of data signaling requirements; that number would not have been the choice if it were not deemed to be needed and useful.

As has been pointed out, the fact that a glider pilot perceived some sort of competition related anti-leeching benefit from intentionally reducing their detection range would be one hell of a tough sell in a US court if the worst were to happen. And then there's the question of what might be the insurance response be in that situation? It seems to me that even if you happen to believe the leeching nonsense, you should not want to have anyone in the organization setting themselves up for increased liability. Seems like race organizers are rationally compelled to specifically disallow stealth so that nobody is permitted to use it for perceived advantage.

We, as an organization have set a 500' margin to airspace above and 30 minute margin to official sunset time -- conservative safety standards for sure.. It is incongruous that we might condone intentionally dialing back PowerFlarm to 2km range and obscuring Aircraft identification information when the instrument is capable of better.

On Wednesday, December 2, 2015 at 4:02:23 PM UTC-5, Steve Koerner wrote:
I find it interesting that the FAA has selected 15 nautical miles as the appropriate range for TIS-B aircraft target situational awareness yet on this forum, there are folks who want to argue that 2 km is all that is needed.. Providing that 15 NM range comes at a square law cost in terms of data signaling requirements; that number would not have been the choice if it were not deemed to be needed and useful.

As has been pointed out, the fact that a glider pilot perceived some sort of competition related anti-leeching benefit from intentionally reducing their detection range would be one hell of a tough sell in a US court if the worst were to happen. And then there's the question of what might be the insurance response be in that situation? It seems to me that even if you happen to believe the leeching nonsense, you should not want to have anyone in the organization setting themselves up for increased liability. Seems like race organizers are rationally compelled to specifically disallow stealth so that nobody is permitted to use it for perceived advantage.

We, as an organization have set a 500' margin to airspace above and 30 minute margin to official sunset time -- conservative safety standards for sure. It is incongruous that we might condone intentionally dialing back PowerFlarm to 2km range and obscuring Aircraft identification information when the instrument is capable of better.

This is a great point Steve.

The reason I installed ADS-B out/in is because I want to be around for my family. I like flying in contests but if it means degrading my safety I will rather go for a soaring vacation instead.