Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 1:42:36 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 8:14:37 AM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
...Dave Nadler's Antares 20e is for sale and is ready to go...

I certainly considered it. The Antares 20E is my dream machine.
Dave was of the opinion that it's not suitable for a low-time pilot,
I guess because of the need to handle the possibility of the motor
not starting and the motor pylon failing to retract. Also, because
of the increased complexity of a self launcher in general.

To repeat what I said to Ben:

The Antares is a VERY easy machine to fly, with failure modes
(especially sink with pylon out and motor stopped) more benign
than anything except FES (but Antares has fewer controls!).

Ben informed me he has 50 hours experience, with
no experience in high performance or with flaps.
Please no offense, but you're discussing the merits of various
models, with a guy just received driver's permit,
in the Ferrari showroom.

50 hours is IMHO no where near enough to be considering motorized
gliders and certainly not self-launchers. FIRST get a 100 or 200
hours of experience in high-performance, including XC and a few
out-landings, THEN get the self-launch training and endorsement.

A seriously motivated person can do this quickly by booking continuous
training courses at any number of advanced operations (available
certainly in Europe, Oz, not in USA this time of year). Certainly
I know folks that have gone from zero to complex gliders including
self-launch quickly and safely this way. Flying with most clubs
it will be VERY hard to quickly get up to the level of experience
needed to be safe in advanced machines (even in the few USA clubs
with the appropriate equipment and instructors). No disrespect
to Ben's club either, and I'd love to see it work, but truly...

Hope this helps clear some of the fog,
and Ben hope you have a blast learning,
Best Regards, Dave

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 11:24:13 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 1:42:36 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 8:14:37 AM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
...Dave Nadler's Antares 20e is for sale and is ready to go...

I certainly considered it. The Antares 20E is my dream machine.
Dave was of the opinion that it's not suitable for a low-time pilot,
I guess because of the need to handle the possibility of the motor
not starting and the motor pylon failing to retract. Also, because
of the increased complexity of a self launcher in general.

To repeat what I said to Ben:

The Antares is a VERY easy machine to fly, with failure modes
(especially sink with pylon out and motor stopped) more benign
than anything except FES (but Antares has fewer controls!).

Ben informed me he has 50 hours experience, with
no experience in high performance or with flaps.
Please no offense, but you're discussing the merits of various
models, with a guy just received driver's permit,
in the Ferrari showroom.

50 hours is IMHO no where near enough to be considering motorized
gliders and certainly not self-launchers. FIRST get a 100 or 200
hours of experience in high-performance, including XC and a few
out-landings, THEN get the self-launch training and endorsement.

A seriously motivated person can do this quickly by booking continuous
training courses at any number of advanced operations (available
certainly in Europe, Oz, not in USA this time of year). Certainly
I know folks that have gone from zero to complex gliders including
self-launch quickly and safely this way. Flying with most clubs
it will be VERY hard to quickly get up to the level of experience
needed to be safe in advanced machines (even in the few USA clubs
with the appropriate equipment and instructors). No disrespect
to Ben's club either, and I'd love to see it work, but truly...

Hope this helps clear some of the fog,
and Ben hope you have a blast learning,
Best Regards, Dave

Dave, I agree that most motorized gliders are not suitable for a new pilot, but if you're saying that glider with a FES sustainer (non-self-launching) isn't appropriate for a new pilot, I'm afraid I disagree. The FES system could not be simpler to operate. If it fails to run in flight, it adds no additional pilot workload the way a pylon mounted motor would. It does not make the aircraft more difficult to fly, or add any meaningful amount of risk.. In fact, by avoiding outlandings, I think it will reduce the risk I'm exposing myself to by flying sailplanes.

If you're simply objecting to me buying a high performance sailplane with 50 hours of experience, then please read my previous posts. By the time I take delivery of one of these high performance gliders, I will have accumulated a decent amount of experience in my club's high performance gliders. If I'm qualified to fly my club's high performance gliders, I don't see why I wouldn't be qualified to fly my own high performance glider, FES or not.

I just bought an Antares 20E awesome ship very easy to fly! 10-12 sec extend retract time. SIMPLE engine control full forward with power lever and 10-12 seconds later you are climbing. Launch to 2000' about 12-15% of battery power. Recharges with automatic shutdown in the trailer!

On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 8:10:48 PM UTC-5, Tom (2N0) wrote:
I just bought an Antares 20E awesome ship very easy to fly!
10-12 sec extend retract time. SIMPLE engine control full forward
with power lever and 10-12 seconds later you are climbing.
Launch to 2000' about 12-15% of battery power.
Recharges with automatic shutdown in the trailer!

Yup. Mine's still for sale, at a bargain price:
http://wingsandwheels.com/class/index.php?id=685
http://youtu.be/uEOSUOLq29Q