JWGC USA update

No, I strongly disagree. My facts are highly accurate (despite being typed from a car and from memory). 5/6 whatever. It's 50% IGC assigned tasks vs 5% (actually, I think it was 3% to be exact) assigned tasks in the USA. No Mats, no Hats whatsoever were run in Australia. I'm not sure how my point could be any more substantiated than that, sir. ;-)

I believe that flying the same rules (and therefore the same strategy and tactics), at all US contests, as the rest of the gliding competition world uses (safely and without issue or without mass exodus from the sport because "it is too hard") is important to the USA on many levels. We are embarrassing ourselves when "some" try to argue that our watered down US rules are not having a significant impact on our US team pilots ability to compete effectively at FAI Gliding World Championships which are all run under IGC rules (the world standard). At the same time, the grand US rules "experiment" is not improving our participation numbers or satisfaction or enjoyment. For many, it is in fact quite irritating to be isolated from the rest of the world.... Even our own private US ranking system is entirely different from the rest of the soaring worlds FAI pilot ranking. US pilots results from US contests are not even added to that list anymore... Even more isolation.

The general trend for US rules is continuing to move steadily towards more and more watering down of the tasking with the impossible goal of eliminating land outs or mass land outs. OLC "contests" are being seriously discussed, etc, etc, etc.

There is no reason we can't have fun at US contests (just as the rest of the world does...) while flying IGC rules. This is a general misconception that has led us down a resource intensive path (US rules) that has limited, neutral or negative value to our sport here in the USA. Our numbers are not increasing. "Hey, the tasking is easier now, I'm signing up" but wouldn't do so until this happened...said nobody ever. "Our pilot satisfaction is not demonstrably higher (with many it is lower). Yet we spend tremendous effort and endlessly debate and continuously modify our own unique US gliding competition rules on an annual basis. No rules are perfect. I know everyone means well, but is all this effort really worth the actual measured results? What is the goal for having our own US rules again? Why do we do all this again? Under what circumstances will we stop being the only country on earth up with its own gliding competition rules? Especially vs. the obvious benefits (time, resources, priorities, etc) of being on the same rules page with the rest of the worlds competition soaring community?

Who within the SSA has the power to force all of us US (and Candian) contest pilots to have to fly entirely different rules? Who are the cheerleaders? Who were the architects? Why do we allow this given the current return on investment?

I'll take the IGC rules and put the manpower we spend managing them to other uses which (in my opinion) are far more in need of attention for US soaring. It's like the flat tax. Get rid of the IRS. Simplify. We have a number of great guys on this "problem." who would (in my humble opinion) be far better utilized working on growth or junior soaring or increasing our US clubs cross country skills and culture, etc, etc, etc.

I am happy to get into the finer details but the broad, general policy of wrestling with our own unique US rules (completely isolating us from the rest of the soaring competition world) vs. simply utilizing IGC rules is something that HAS NEVER made any sense to me, whatsoever. I'm continuously baffled by it. Is it just me? No...

I look forward to some honest answers to the questions above...

Sean

Sean:

Again. (And again, and again, and again): No country uses IGC rules. IGC rules, verbatim, are only applicable for world championships. Start right at entry is by nomination from National Aero Clubs. So how are you going to do entries for US nationals if you "use IGC rules?" Ask the NAC to decide who gets in to Nephi? And go on from there. Stewards, international jury, site selection, so forth. You simply cannot use these, verbatim, for national and regional contests. Every country creates a set of national rules, adapting IGC rules more or less.

Again. And again and again and again: The choice of assigned tasks vs. turn area tasks vs. MATs is completely up to the competition director. IGC rules have fixed proportions of tasks -- resulting in assigned tasks in thunderstorms because we used up the allowed fraction of turn area tasks. US rules do not have any fixed proportions. THIS IS ENTIRELY UP TO THE CD, not the rules. If you want assigned tasks, talk to your CD. Talk to your fellow pilots at nationals and convince them that's what they really want to do.

The clamor for "use IGC rules" would be much reduced if anyone bothered to actually read the rules before clamoring.

John Cochrane

IGC rules have fixed proportions of tasks
No, they don't. They recommend but do not require no more than 2/3rds of one task type.
6.1) TASK TYPES The following task types are available for use during the
Championships. A single task type should not be used for more than 67% of the
Championship Days in each class.
Preliminary Remarks b) In this Annex the words "must", "shall", and "may not" indicate mandatory
requirements; "should" indicates a recommendation; "may" indicates what is
permitted; and "will" indicates what is going to happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GMkuPiIZ2k

I am not familiar with the US rules, but I do know the IGC rules quite well and they're not the bogeymen they're made out to be. Nor are they perfect - still quite a few step functions left. I would like to see them gone, like Bruce Hoult suggested.

On Wednesday, December 16, 2015 at 2:50:34 PM UTC+11, John Cochrane wrote:
Sean:

Again. (And again, and again, and again): No country uses IGC rules. IGC rules, verbatim, are only applicable for world championships. Start right at entry is by nomination from National Aero Clubs. So how are you going to do entries for US nationals if you "use IGC rules?" Ask the NAC to decide who gets in to Nephi? And go on from there. Stewards, international jury, site selection, so forth. You simply cannot use these, verbatim, for national and regional contests. Every country creates a set of national rules, adapting IGC rules more or less.

Again. And again and again and again: The choice of assigned tasks vs. turn area tasks vs. MATs is completely up to the competition director. IGC rules have fixed proportions of tasks -- resulting in assigned tasks in thunderstorms because we used up the allowed fraction of turn area tasks. US rules do not have any fixed proportions. THIS IS ENTIRELY UP TO THE CD, not the rules. If you want assigned tasks, talk to your CD. Talk to your fellow pilots at nationals and convince them that's what they really want to do.

The clamor for "use IGC rules" would be much reduced if anyone bothered to actually read the rules before clamoring.

John Cochrane

Common John! ;-)

Saying the rules committee has nothing to do with the tasks run at US contests is like saying that the Federal Reserve has nothing to do with inflation, output or employment. Common! Who are you trying to kid?

You guys came up with these experimental task types (only in the USA, even Canada doesn't use HATs). Saying the RC has nothing to do with tasking is just really, really funny when you think about it. Thanks for the chuckle. The purpose of the experiment was to provide CDs a means of providing more more flexibility (lower difficulty) for contest pilots in order to reduce land-outs in unpredictable weather, right? But in reality land-outs have not really decreased all that much. Task challenge and for some overall contest enjoyment has been reduced.

Blame it on the CDs? No. I certainly do not. Talk to the CDs? I do and they have responded to encouragement in some cases. I am thankful for this, but it's only been at nationals really. I'll run the numbers soon. I suspect it was only a 2% increase at best.

Other counties seem to, somehow, run a significant number of assigned tasks at regional level, junior level contests and even junior training camps (and of course roughly 50% at nationals (weather permitting) becuase they are loved by many pilots and simple to manage for beginners. They don't have an enormously higher land out rate. The US runs only 1-2 assigned tasks a year NATIONWIDE at regionals, if we are lucky! A handful more at nationals.. Again, land-out rates are roughly the same.

Many US pilots (and Candian) are no longer excited about US regionals becuase of the silly tasks that are often called. A significant number have entirely stopped planning to attend regionals. Now "we" are even seriously studying the introduction of an OLC task. This will probably further hamper assigned tasks.

I like the idea of the IGC setting a reasonable task ratio standard at the Worlds. Most countries seem to adopt those basic standards in their contests. The US RC needs to inject at least some guidance protecting assigned tasks or we will have none soon.

Look at the turnout for the FAI Sailplane Grand Prix USA (July 2016). We could have had almost 50 entrants if more than 20 were allowed to enter. Some people, perhaps more than you think, still want to to race.

It's incredible how resistant many in SSA leadership roles are to this idea..

Cheerio,

Sean

Even Canada , really

Very interesting to read your thought and concerns regarding tasks.

US looks completely different from Europe. Here(in Europe) do we mainly (almost only) fly the Assigned Speed Task (AST, speed over given distance) and the Assigned Area Task(AAT, distance over given time in defined areas, recalculated to speed) defined by the IGC Sporting Code. Different pilots has different preferences regarding the two tasks, but if the CD calls out to many AAT will definitely the AST-guys complain loud. I guess that the long term is the ratio between AST:AAT close to 1:1. In a single competition is it more AST if the weather is good and homogeneous and more AAT in unstable conditions with predicted showers. Never or seldom does the CD calls for AAT to reduce the out landings in the big competitions, maybe in the smaller ones. There is a long tradition in Europe to fly AST, and when we fly AAT do we want the areas to be reasonable small (5-15km). To some extent do we actually fly to little AAT at the top level to be prepared for the WGC, the opposite as you describe for the US pilots.

There is a long winter ahead
/Per, G7

Per Carlin,

That is very interesting indeed. Clearly may European pilots arriv at the various world championships quite battle hardened and well prepared. No question there.

Thanks for sharing.

Sean

On Wednesday, December 16, 2015 at 12:31:58 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:


Blame it on the CDs? No. I certainly do not. Talk to the CDs? I do and they have responded to encouragement in some cases. I am thankful for this, but it's only been at nationals really. I'll run the numbers soon. I suspect it was only a 2% increase at best.


Cheerio,

Sean

A suggestion from the last guy to call an Assigned Task at a US contest...

Why not advertise Region 6 as a "mostly AT" contest this year (that is your region,right?). Couldn't hurt to have some real data on whether that effects participation, pilot satisfaction, etc.


Erik Mann
P3

OK...Ill bite.

I actually already have! Check out this AMAZING website. www.sgp.aero/usa2016 - The FIRST EVER FAI Sailplane Grand Prix USA 2016 to be held next July 24th -31st. It has been sold out for many months now...

Numerous top ranked FAI pilots will be traveling to the USA next summer (more internation pilots than have been to the USA, for a non world championship event, in a VERY long time I imagine...). Pilots from Australia, Germany, Britain, etc. Over 10 of these international competitors (not including Canada) have applied to fly our FAI Sailplane Grand Prix USA. Unfortunatly, per the FAI SGP rules, only 5 international competitors will be accepted (of 20 total pilots in the contest). Wow. Imagine that. Top international pilots signing up for a US contest in Ionia, MI! An assigned task only contest clearly creating STRONG demand for top international pilots to travel to Ionia, MI USA and fly an assigned task only contest. An assinged task only event (in the USA!) which was sold out and significantly overbooked OVER A YEAR BEFOR THE CONTEST BEGINS! Hmmm. I wonder why that could be?

We also have almost 25 US and Canadian pilots in the que. They are in the process of being widdled down to the max of 15 based on SSA rankings (becuase the SSA stoped maintaining the FAI information...sigh)

Clearly, there is strong demand for ASSIGNED TASKS in the USA. Perhaps even more demand would exist if SGP USA was hosted by a more exotic location.

Personally I would rather do a grand prix match race with one other glider friend in Ionia than go to a regional contest that will only run timed, wide area TAT "weather skill" tasks. Hell, I would rather practice an assigned task by myself (something I do all the time) or try a state record flight than go to a TAT, MAT only contest. In all my contests over the last 5 years, I think I have only done 5-6 assinged tasks. I am SICK of timed, area tasks. I am probably not alone..............

I hear you. Many cry (like children at times) about assigned tasks (even though we very rarely run them at all). Some phycisally cower when assigned tasks are even "hinted at" even if the weather forecast is enormously good.. Its amazing how fearful many seem to be. Just because many protest against or threaten not to attend a contests if assigned tasks are possible does not make them justified in their strong resistance. I think assigned task (rather than just going to the best weather) make pilots better cross country pilots. I think they gave great value to newer cross country pilots. I think flying only to the best weather makes a pilot quite weak at certain areas. Assigned tasks are very rewarding and yes, sometimes, difficult. You might even land out once in awhile. So what. There is a reason they do 50% ASTs at major contests wordwide. I think an "assigned tasks lives matter" T shirt is coming! ;-)

I believe that we should strive to have at least 20% assigned tasks in the USA, not 3%. Still a small fraction (20% vs. 50%) of general international levels, but nearly 7x more than are run in the US today. There is good value, as a country, to remaining proficient in assigned tasks. We cannot purely focus on broad weather strategy, computer management task. And it is a total misconception that this value is only for the US team pilots who have to go to world championships where 50% of the task are likely to be AST.

Im really getting tired of this conversation. But I think its a important one.

The USA runs 3% NOT TIMED TASKS and 97% timed tasks. Say that 10 times for me. This is undisputed data and is not proportional to the desires of all US glider pilots, despite what the pollsters are trying to sell us.

Sean

OK, back on topic...... ;-)

I say, "Congrats to the Junior pilots, team members, suppliers, helpers, etc., job well done".

I will also be looking for some of the "war stories" of flights.