General Zinni on Sixty Minutes

It's amazing how so many WWII vets risked life and limb to save the French
from Totalitarianism, then scurry back to the U.S. and try to ram it down
our throats . . .

Why don't you elaborate on that statement some. Who is doing that? How many
WWII veterans have done that?

When I vote for Kerry, is that a vote for totalitarianism?

Walt

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

When I vote for Kerry, is that a vote for totalitarianism?


Totalitarianism is a bit extreme, but a vote for Kerry, or any other
liberal, is certainly a vote against freedom.

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Steven
P. McNicoll" confessed the following:


Totalitarianism is a bit extreme, but a vote for Kerry, or any other
liberal, is certainly a vote against freedom.

Exactly how is voting for ANY liberal a vote against freedom?

I anticipate an illuminating discourse...or not.

Robey

On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 19:38:45 GMT, Robey Price
wrote:

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Steven
P. McNicoll" confessed the following:


Totalitarianism is a bit extreme, but a vote for Kerry, or any other
liberal, is certainly a vote against freedom.

Exactly how is voting for ANY liberal a vote against freedom?

I anticipate an illuminating discourse...or not.

Robey

I've got to find myself on the same side of the fence (for this one
instance) as Juvat. Certainly characterizing a vote for a liberal as a
vote against freedom is ignoring the essentials of the two primary
ideologies in America.

Characteristically the liberal ideology is based on a belief that
government is the best solution to societal problems. Taken further
left we get to welfare statism, socialism and eventually at the
extreme communism. Examples of liberal approaches are things like
Social Security, Medicare, publicly funded education, etc. Often these
solutions are very effective.

Conversely the basic element of traditional convervatism is a
free-market solution, focussed on individual responsibility. Want
health care? Get insured. Want a retirement? Put something away. Don't
expect government to do it for you. These approaches can work as well.

Trends in liberal/conservative ideology is for liberals to support the
workers (unions) and conservatives to support entrepreneurs and
management. Liberals focus government spending on social programs
while conservatives tend toward strong defense ("guns vs butter").

Inevitably government programs cost money, so a liberal administration
will lead toward higher taxes, but this is usually balanced by
including some element of "redistribution of wealth"--the progressive
tax structure of the IRS, for example. This is acceptable to some
point as folks weigh the cost/benefit of dollars paid in tax against
service provided.

The conservative side of American politics, however, is split between
traditional (i.e. fiscal) conservatives and social conservatives.
Quite clearly the social conservative side of the ideology actually
can restrict freedom as much as the liberal in their desire to impose
a standard of morality no society as a whole. Good example is liberals
support gun control (loss of 2nd Amendment freedom) while social
conservatives support censorship, prayer in school, campaign finance
reform, and a high degree of homphobia--arguably losses of 1st
Amendment freedoms.

The reality of the situation is that both sides run to the extremes
for the primary season and then back to the moderate middle for
general elections. Both sides wind up compromising to build policies
that can pass the legislative process. Clinton was arguably a fairly
moderate Democrat and Bush 43 has espoused some clearly liberal
positions such as steel and plywood tariffs or federally funded
prescription drug programs.

Illuminated yet?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed:

And how, precisely, do "liberal solutions" get implemented?

At gunpoint.

A vote for "liberalism" (the modern definition; "big government solutions")
is clearly a vote for totalitarianism.

A vote for modern "conservatism" is different only in degree, not principle.
Vote for your economic freedoms to be taken away first, then your freedom of
action . . . or vice versa.

Steve Swartz


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 19:38:45 GMT, Robey Price
wrote:

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Steven
P. McNicoll" confessed the following:


Totalitarianism is a bit extreme, but a vote for Kerry, or any other
liberal, is certainly a vote against freedom.

Exactly how is voting for ANY liberal a vote against freedom?

I anticipate an illuminating discourse...or not.

Robey

I've got to find myself on the same side of the fence (for this one
instance) as Juvat. Certainly characterizing a vote for a liberal as a
vote against freedom is ignoring the essentials of the two primary
ideologies in America.

Characteristically the liberal ideology is based on a belief that
government is the best solution to societal problems. Taken further
left we get to welfare statism, socialism and eventually at the
extreme communism. Examples of liberal approaches are things like
Social Security, Medicare, publicly funded education, etc. Often these
solutions are very effective.

Conversely the basic element of traditional convervatism is a
free-market solution, focussed on individual responsibility. Want
health care? Get insured. Want a retirement? Put something away. Don't
expect government to do it for you. These approaches can work as well.

Trends in liberal/conservative ideology is for liberals to support the
workers (unions) and conservatives to support entrepreneurs and
management. Liberals focus government spending on social programs
while conservatives tend toward strong defense ("guns vs butter").

Inevitably government programs cost money, so a liberal administration
will lead toward higher taxes, but this is usually balanced by
including some element of "redistribution of wealth"--the progressive
tax structure of the IRS, for example. This is acceptable to some
point as folks weigh the cost/benefit of dollars paid in tax against
service provided.

The conservative side of American politics, however, is split between
traditional (i.e. fiscal) conservatives and social conservatives.
Quite clearly the social conservative side of the ideology actually
can restrict freedom as much as the liberal in their desire to impose
a standard of morality no society as a whole. Good example is liberals
support gun control (loss of 2nd Amendment freedom) while social
conservatives support censorship, prayer in school, campaign finance
reform, and a high degree of homphobia--arguably losses of 1st
Amendment freedoms.

The reality of the situation is that both sides run to the extremes
for the primary season and then back to the moderate middle for
general elections. Both sides wind up compromising to build policies
that can pass the legislative process. Clinton was arguably a fairly
moderate Democrat and Bush 43 has espoused some clearly liberal
positions such as steel and plywood tariffs or federally funded
prescription drug programs.

Illuminated yet?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:40:23 -0400, "Leslie Swartz"
wrote:

Ed:

And how, precisely, do "liberal solutions" get implemented?

At gunpoint.

Hardly. We elect representatives who propose alternatives, then amend
and compromise and finally create a marginally effective bureaucracy
that does nothing for most of us, but garners votes from the unwashed
masses for reelection.

Seriously, I don't think Social Security, Medicare or public education
were implemented at gunpoint. They met the demands of "we the
people"--even when misguided.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Subject: General Zinni on Sixty Minutes
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 6/5/04 3:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time

Seriously, I don't think Social Security, Medicare or public education
were implemented at gunpoint. They met the demands of "we the
people"--even when misguided.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)

Social Security, Medicare and public education misguided? So much for
compassionate conservatism.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Ed:

I know you know better. Try "opting out" of the various social safety net
programs in order to live by the Constitution. See how long it takes for
the men with the guns to show up. You could probably stay out of prison for
a year; maybe 18 months tops.

Like I said- I *know* you know better; you have posted your bona fides
here several times.

Steve Swartz




"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:40:23 -0400, "Leslie Swartz"
wrote:

Ed:

And how, precisely, do "liberal solutions" get implemented?

At gunpoint.

Hardly. We elect representatives who propose alternatives, then amend
and compromise and finally create a marginally effective bureaucracy
that does nothing for most of us, but garners votes from the unwashed
masses for reelection.

Seriously, I don't think Social Security, Medicare or public education
were implemented at gunpoint. They met the demands of "we the
people"--even when misguided.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote:

Seriously, I don't think Social Security, Medicare or public education
were implemented at gunpoint.

Ed? None of that is a value to me. *None* of it.

And when I don't pay for it, what do you think the state's next
move is?


Billy

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...

Hardly. We elect representatives who propose alternatives, then amend
and compromise and finally create a marginally effective bureaucracy
that does nothing for most of us, but garners votes from the unwashed
masses for reelection.

Seriously, I don't think Social Security, Medicare or public education
were implemented at gunpoint. They met the demands of "we the
people"--even when misguided.


Decline to participate in those programs and eventually someone from your
government will be pointing a gun at you.