Handicap Distance Tasks

On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 9:09:49 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 2:43:57 PM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:
It's a very interesting idea. A couple of questions.

What are the implications for leeching and does the handicapping account for the fact that this likely makes it easier for lower handicap gliders to hang back a bit and use higher performance gliders as markers throughout the task.

In uniform weather this seems fine, but what about tasks where flying farther requires the higher performance gliders to face blue holes, thunderstorms, getting off convergence lines and the like.

These were questions that were asked of me when I asked some experienced pilots about it and I had no experience from which to provide an answer.

9B

Andy, I can answer those questions from some experience.

Everybody has to fly the same course, but higher performance gliders must fly further into the turnpoint cylinder than lower performance, as their radius is smaller. If one is leeching from the other, they will loose each other at each turn point (or at least, the low performance will turn first and then the high performance might leech temporarily in passing to the next turnpoint). The contests we have flown at Truckee like this are simultaneous start, or effectively so. In a perfectly flown contest by all participants, they will see each other only at the start, once between each turnpoint (though maybe not then - see below), and at the simultaneous finish.

For the most part, the weather will be similar, since the handicap difference in radius is usually only a few miles at each turnpoint. Of course it can happen that the only thermal in the area is right at the low performance or high performance turnpoint, which will favor that glider. If the difference in handicap is large, then the best course between two handicapped turnpoints might differ which again might favor one or the other. Some of this can be mitigated by choosing intelligent turnpoints to handicap (not all of them need be).

If run with a simultaneous start and open Flarm, this kind of racing is far more like real racing than traditional US sailplane racing (which is really a time trial). You start at the same time, you can see how you are doing against your fellow competitors, in between each handicapped turnpoint the difference is accounted for and you are even again. Just like real racing..

Would it be possible to use Winscore to score a task using this method currently? Is there a reason that we couldn't start trying out this method in US Sanctioned contests?

Scoring seems like a significant issue - presumably you set up a nominal distance and just score off of raw time no matter what handicapped distance was flown. I'm guessing Winscore would have trouble with variable task lengths with dynamically created waypoints for each task for each pilot, so you'd have to assume people flew their assigned task on an honor system - or do a lot of manual checking. Landouts would also would require manual work.

Unless the software that sets up the task can also read the IGC files and score the flights?

9B

At 05:43 31 January 2016, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Scoring seems like a significant issue - presumably you set up a nominal
di=
stance and just score off of raw time no matter what handicapped distance
w=
as flown. I'm guessing Winscore would have trouble with variable task
lengt=
hs with dynamically created waypoints for each task for each pilot, so
you'=
d have to assume people flew their assigned task on an honor system - or
do=
a lot of manual checking. Landouts would also would require manual work.

Unless the software that sets up the task can also read the IGC files and
s=
core the flights?=20

9B

The DHT software suite will pre-process each IGC file and insert the task
flown (which will be different for each handicap value) into the file.
SeeYou will use this task when scoring.

Come to UK this Summer and see it in action.

At 05:43 31 January 2016, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Scoring seems like a significant issue - presumably you set up a nominal
di=
stance and just score off of raw time no matter what handicapped distance
w=
as flown. I'm guessing Winscore would have trouble with variable task
lengt=
hs with dynamically created waypoints for each task for each pilot, so
you'=
d have to assume people flew their assigned task on an honor system - or
do=
a lot of manual checking. Landouts would also would require manual work.

Unless the software that sets up the task can also read the IGC files and
s=
core the flights?=20

9B

Hi Andy

Scoring is actually easy. For pilots that complete their task, it is just a
matter of comparing times. The same as a single class competition.

For land outs there is a compromise to be made. Fast gliders that land out
near the finish (radiused back) get a small disadvantage but if they land
out early get a small bonus. In DHTs less gliders land out.

The software that I created adds the individual task data into the evidence
so that it can be easily and automatically scored using See You. I see no
reason that other scoring software could not be easily modified to compare
the flight to the task read from the file.

Jim

Sounds like it's either honor system scoring or learning SeeYou Competition if you want to validate that no one cut their turnpoint(s) short, plus automate landout scoring, printing of scoresheets etc.

Winscore doesn't support this task type, so there'll be a bit of a learning curve to put one on most places in the US where scorers have been using Winscore.

I am curious, is Truckee using SeeYou for their tasks that follow this format?

9B

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 6:57:30 AM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Sounds like it's either honor system scoring or learning SeeYou Competition if you want to validate that no one cut their turnpoint(s) short, plus automate landout scoring, printing of scoresheets etc.

Winscore doesn't support this task type, so there'll be a bit of a learning curve to put one on most places in the US where scorers have been using Winscore.

I am curious, is Truckee using SeeYou for their tasks that follow this format?

9B

In Truckee in the past we have done these as an out and return typically because of the difficulty in task setting. We have scored them by hand, looking at the flight logs in SeeYou for turnpoint achievement and violations. Also our scoring system is very simple: with a simultaneous start, the first glider back is first, etc. Real racing. 4 races run per year for at least the last 10. One of them is always a 3 lap circuit of 4 turnpoints, with one handicapped so that the gliders are even each lap. Most of the gliders have Flarm, and nobody puts them in stealth.

We are attempting to use Jim White's software this year to set more complex tasks, and will score them with SeeYou.

The Truckee FAI competition, while not tasked this way specifically, is generally flown this way by most participants. Usually everyone starts within a few minutes of gate open, the faster gliders/pilots go further into the AAT while the slower ones graze the cylinder, in order to make minimum times.. Handicaps applied at the end by Winscore. I think it would be more fun doing with handicap distances.

I will further propose sacrilege: regional class competition should also be flown this way. I believe you would get more participation, because a well flown ASW20 would have a chance against an ASG29 or V3.

The problem is that the USA uses proprietary scoring software (and proprietary tasks and scoring rules which requires it).

The scoring system for this new task has been handed to us on a silver platter. But again, becuase here in the US we have are own unique EVERYTHING, we can't use this great new task easily.

It's fascinating to watch how many of us, here in the USA, can't see the forest for the trees...

We simply need to stop trying to be different and join the rest of the planet in common soaring rules (and scoring software).

Problem solved! Oh if I could see the grinding teeth and clinched fists all over the land...

But back to US clubs and clubs having fun independently of silly, proprietary, US rules and US scoring software.

Drum roll............................................

Simply use SeeYou!

Ta-da! Close curtain!

Morning tasking chores-
A) Call the task
B) Everyone gets various handicap radiuses to "level" the task! (Another thought is a second later of calculation based on pilot experience...)
C) Go race and have fun!
D) Drop the traces into SeeYou and BOOM, see who won!

A1) Or better yet, start together on a starting line (Grand Prix style) and he/she who returns first is the big winner! Second home, second place...and so on. No need for scoring at all! Just go to the pub and buy he winner a well deserved pint!

All this fun even while racing (set course) gliders of various handicaps (99% of us!).

This would be a fantastic SSA task for regionals. It really makes a lot of sense (custom, relative assigned) and really gives everyone a fair chance of truly competing level against each other (vs wide area tasks) and having fun. It is also very simple, easy to build and easy to manage. Again, congrats to the developers of this innovative task! I am going to try it in the spring with my gang in MI.

Sean Fidler

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 9:54:29 AM UTC-6, smfidler wrote:
The problem is that the USA uses proprietary scoring software (and proprietary tasks and scoring rules which requires it).

The scoring system for this new task has been handed to us on a silver platter. But again, becuase here in the US we have are own unique EVERYTHING, we can't use this great new task easily.

It's fascinating to watch how many of us, here in the USA, can't see the forest for the trees...

We simply need to stop trying to be different and join the rest of the planet in common soaring rules (and scoring software).

Problem solved! Oh if I could see the grinding teeth and clinched fists all over the land...

But back to US clubs and clubs having fun independently of silly, proprietary, US rules and US scoring software.

Drum roll............................................

Simply use SeeYou!

Ta-da! Close curtain!

Morning tasking chores-
A) Call the task
B) Everyone gets various handicap radiuses to "level" the task! (Another thought is a second later of calculation based on pilot experience...)
C) Go race and have fun!
D) Drop the traces into SeeYou and BOOM, see who won!

A1) Or better yet, start together on a starting line (Grand Prix style) and he/she who returns first is the big winner! Second home, second place....and so on. No need for scoring at all! Just go to the pub and buy he winner a well deserved pint!

All this fun even while racing (set course) gliders of various handicaps (99% of us!).

This would be a fantastic SSA task for regionals. It really makes a lot of sense (custom, relative assigned) and really gives everyone a fair chance of truly competing level against each other (vs wide area tasks) and having fun. It is also very simple, easy to build and easy to manage. Again, congrats to the developers of this innovative task! I am going to try it in the spring with my gang in MI.

Sean Fidler

At the Chicago Glider Club we started an internal discussion how this task idea can be used for our NISC (Northern IL Soaring Contest). Since we allow anyone from 4 local clubs to participate on any given day during the season, I see some problems with Jim White's ideas:
- A computer-generated task sheet has to be produced for each handicap level after a set of turnpoints has been selected (not possible for different launch sites on the same day). Even at our club, we would have to do some computer prep work, the task cannot easily be changed later on (i.e. in the air)
- Loggers that allow for a task load have to be used, some here use non-certified hand-held loggers.
- Pilots have to properly declare their specific tasks in their loggers. That takes familiarity and experience that some pilots don't have and don't want to acquire.

The basic idea is quite convincing and should be tested in the US environment. I like the concept of flying to narrowly defined turnpoints and the fact that it is not a min. time task. We do already limit start height (4,500') and start and finish radii.
Question to Jim White: do you allow for water ballast and how do you account for those flying ballasted in the final score.
Herb

At 16:59 31 January 2016, wrote:
On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 9:54:29 AM UTC-6, smfidler wrote:
The problem is that the USA uses proprietary scoring software (and
propri=
etary tasks and scoring rules which requires it). =20
=20
The scoring system for this new task has been handed to us on a silver
pl=
atter. But again, becuase here in the US we have are own unique
EVERYTHING=
, we can't use this great new task easily.
=20
It's fascinating to watch how many of us, here in the USA, can't see
the
=
forest for the trees...
=20
We simply need to stop trying to be different and join the rest of the
pl=
anet in common soaring rules (and scoring software).
=20
Problem solved! Oh if I could see the grinding teeth and clinched
fists
=
all over the land...
=20
But back to US clubs and clubs having fun independently of silly,
proprie=
tary, US rules and US scoring software. =20
=20
Drum roll............................................
=20
Simply use SeeYou! =20
=20
Ta-da! Close curtain!
=20
Morning tasking chores-
A) Call the task
B) Everyone gets various handicap radiuses to "level" the task!
(Another=
thought is a second later of calculation based on pilot experience...)
C) Go race and have fun! =20
D) Drop the traces into SeeYou and BOOM, see who won! =20
=20
A1) Or better yet, start together on a starting line (Grand Prix style)
a=
nd he/she who returns first is the big winner! Second home, second
place..=
..and so on. No need for scoring at all! Just go to the pub and buy he
win=
ner a well deserved pint!
=20
All this fun even while racing (set course) gliders of various
handicaps
=
(99% of us!). =20
=20
This would be a fantastic SSA task for regionals. It really makes a
lot
=
of sense (custom, relative assigned) and really gives everyone a fair
chanc=
e of truly competing level against each other (vs wide area tasks) and
havi=
ng fun. It is also very simple, easy to build and easy to manage.
Again,
=
congrats to the developers of this innovative task! I am going to try it
i=
n the spring with my gang in MI.
=20
Sean Fidler

At the Chicago Glider Club we started an internal discussion how this
task
=
idea can be used for our NISC (Northern IL Soaring Contest). Since we
allow=
anyone from 4 local clubs to participate on any given day during the
seaso=
n, I see some problems with Jim White's ideas:
- A computer-generated task sheet has to be produced for each handicap
leve=
l after a set of turnpoints has been selected (not possible for different
l=
aunch sites on the same day). Even at our club, we would have to do some
co=
mputer prep work, the task cannot easily be changed later on (i.e. in the
a=
ir)
- Loggers that allow for a task load have to be used, some here use
non-cer=
tified hand-held loggers.
- Pilots have to properly declare their specific tasks in their loggers.
T=
hat takes familiarity and experience that some pilots don't have and
don't
=
want to acquire.

The basic idea is quite convincing and should be tested in the US
environme=
nt. I like the concept of flying to narrowly defined turnpoints and the
fac=
t that it is not a min. time task. We do already limit start height
(4,500'=
) and start and finish radii.
Question to Jim White: do you allow for water ballast and how do you
accoun=
t for those flying ballasted in the final score.
Herb

Herb, we do not make any changes for ballasted glider as they are allowed
in all our comps using standard handicaps (except club class where ballast
is prohibited for another reason)

I'd very much support this being tried at a US Regionals, or even local races.

I'm still wondering about tactical implications. If the task lengths are set by handicap and each turn is just a few miles further for higher performance ships I'd think the higher performance ships would be passing the lower performance ships on each leg, continuing on past the lower performance turn a couple of miles then turning and running them down again on the next leg so that the lower performance ships are almost perpetually markers and they don't get to turn the tables because right around the time the higher performance guys pass them they have to turn onto the next leg. Even if the course isn't out and return it wouldn't take much deviation to put the lower performance guys in the crosshairs after a turn.

If the purpose is to handicap the task length so that everybody flies the same task duration then I'd think if you start just a bit behind a lower performance glider you'd pass them up on every leg - assuming equal piloting. People do this a little bit in US AT and MAT tasking by going a little deeper in the 1mi cylinder than a target pilot in front of you. This would set that up by design and well-aligned with glider performance so executing the tactic would be even easier.

Not that it's a big deal, just that some of us Americans hate the using markers style of flying.

Maybe I just need to see how the geometry works out in practice.

Andy
9B