For Keith Willshaw...

Which never happened since nobody knew this.
Please none of the 'they broke the codes' bull****.

The IJN didnt transmit the details of this operation,
it was hand carried and the fleet maintained radio silence

No,Sir almost everbody in Washington DC,but surely the names mentioned above as
all them were informed about attack by Col.Bratton and Thurman personaly.
On Nov.28 They officially informed Hull,Stimson and Knox about japanese fleets
target.They did not respond.
On eve of Pearl Harbor attack the same team intercepted and decipher the famous
message to Nomura.
Thurman took the message immediately to Adm.Kramer.He took the message but did
not do anything.
Thurman tried to contact Stark,Turner and Marshall,no avail, apparently nobody
in Washington DC wants to do something to prevent Pearl Harbor.
As last resort Thurman went directly to White House with a car driven by his
wife and wanted to speak with FDR directly.
But instead of FDR he was ablr to speak to Harry Hopkins.

So,Mr.Willshaw after Nov.28 Pearl Harbor attack was not surprise attack to
anybody in Washington DC,it was a very welcomed opportunity.
In other words,Washington was decided to make it happen for domestic politics.

Kimmel was fired, I really dont see him staying
silent in such a situation.

Firing is not a very heavy punishment form

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Which never happened since nobody knew this.
Please none of the 'they broke the codes' bull****.

The IJN didnt transmit the details of this operation,
it was hand carried and the fleet maintained radio silence

No,Sir almost everbody in Washington DC,but surely the names mentioned
above as
all them were informed about attack by Col.Bratton and Thurman personaly.
On Nov.28 They officially informed Hull,Stimson and Knox about japanese
fleets
target.They did not respond.


A tough trick since Japanese approval for the attack
didnt come until Dec 3rd. What happened on Nov 28th was
the decryption of the winds code message sent on Nov 19th
This spoke of breaking off diplomatic warnings.

As a result Kimmel and Short were sent a message that
began "This is to be considered a war warning"

On eve of Pearl Harbor attack the same team intercepted and decipher the
famous
message to Nomura.

Which said nothing about an attack of any sort

Thurman took the message immediately to Adm.Kramer.He took the message but
did
not do anything.
Thurman tried to contact Stark,Turner and Marshall,no avail, apparently
nobody
in Washington DC wants to do something to prevent Pearl Harbor.

So which is it ?

Did he try to contact people or do nothing ?

As last resort Thurman went directly to White House with a car driven by
his
wife and wanted to speak with FDR directly.
But instead of FDR he was ablr to speak to Harry Hopkins.


Indeed , carrying the following message

http://ibiblio.org/pha/myths/14_part.html

So,Mr.Willshaw after Nov.28 Pearl Harbor attack was not surprise attack to
anybody in Washington DC,it was a very welcomed opportunity.
In other words,Washington was decided to make it happen for domestic
politics.


Read the actual message old boy, the most warlike statement
in the thing is

"The Japanese Government regrets to have to notify hereby the
American Government that in view of the attitude of the American
Government it cannot but consider that it is impossible to reach
an agreement through further negotiations."

Hardly a blueprint of the Pearl Harbor attack plan.


Kimmel was fired, I really dont see him staying
silent in such a situation.

Firing is not a very heavy punishment form

For you I'm sure thats true.

Keith




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As a result Kimmel and Short were sent a message that
began "This is to be considered a war warning"

They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period.

So which is it ?
Did he try to contact people or do nothing

Do you think that Navy and Army units in Pasific were alerted and waiting for
Japanase to attack?

Hardly a blueprint of the Pearl Harbor attack plan.

You could only say that if officers of US military intelligence had NOT told to
their superiors cleary "Target is Pearl Harbor" but they did say exactly that
since Nov,28.
So since Nov,28 they knew the target thanks to work of a few men.
Since their superiors did not respond to their warnings one of
them,Thurman,sidestepped the line of command and personaly went all way up to
White House,with very clear warning of japanase attack with the name of the
target "Pearl Harbor".

For you I'm sure thats true.


Put the blame on Guetenberg and also countless creators of the "
Information Age".

On 08 Jun 2004 21:58:19 GMT, (Denyav) wrote:

As a result Kimmel and Short were sent a message that
began "This is to be considered a war warning"

They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period.

Which is of course rubbish - everyone thought the Phillipines would be
hit - and oh look - they were, along with many other places.

So how could PH be the only possible target.period?

Peter Kemp

Which is of course rubbish - everyone thought the Phillipines would be
hit - and oh look - they were, along with many other places.

So how could PH be the only possible target.period?


If you are decided to allow that to happen you can always find a way to ignore
or discredit your own military intelligence personels' professional judgement.

What else should be done to convict Washington that Pearl Harbor attack was
imminent?

Maybe Hirohito should have testified before US Congress and swear god that they
were about to attack Pearl Harbor?

I am sure even if Hirohito had appeared before Congress and officialy warned
US,FDR would still find a way to ignore the warning.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
As a result Kimmel and Short were sent a message that
began "This is to be considered a war warning"

They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period.


1) They didnt

2) It clearly wasnt since bothWake and the Phillipines
were attacked as expected

So which is it ?
Did he try to contact people or do nothing

Do you think that Navy and Army units in Pasific were alerted and waiting
for
Japanase to attack?


Alerted yes
Ready no

Thats why Kimmel and Short were fired.
Halsey on the other hand had a full CAP up,
all his scouts out and had told Kimmel that
if he saw as much as a Sampan he'd sink it.

Hardly a blueprint of the Pearl Harbor attack plan.

You could only say that if officers of US military intelligence had NOT
told to
their superiors cleary "Target is Pearl Harbor" but they did say exactly
that
since Nov,28.

They send a message to Pearl Harbor on Nov 28th which began
"This is to be considered a war warning"

This message instructed the commanders at Pearl
to prepare for war, they failed to do so and were
fired.

So since Nov,28 they knew the target thanks to work of a few men.

Cite please, the Japanese navy didnt get final
approval until Nov 3

Since their superiors did not respond to their warnings one of
them,Thurman,sidestepped the line of command and personaly went all way up
to
White House,with very clear warning of japanase attack with the name of
the
target "Pearl Harbor".


No he didnt, he went to the White House with the 14th
part of the Japanese message which contained no
atatck plans at all, not even a declaration of war in fact.

For you I'm sure thats true.


Put the blame on Guetenberg and also countless creators of the "
Information Age".

No just liars.

Keith




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1) They didnt


This is the whole point .according to the Government they did not,according to
the Intelligence officers they did and they did it repeately.
On eve of Pearl Harbor attact,even during a secret White House meeting they
discussed their Pearl Harbor specific information.
But of course White House denies even this meeting!.

Thats why Kimmel and Short were fired.
Halsey on the other hand had a full CAP up,
all his scouts out and had told Kimmel that
if he saw as much as a Sampan he'd sink it.

This message instructed the commanders at Pearl
to prepare for war, they failed to do so and were
fired.

They needed scapegoats to cover their acts otherwise you might be forced to
think the unthinkable,namely the bringing FDR and Marshall to the Justice for
treason.
As far as I know even US Congress found Kimmel at no fault and accepted
revisionistic version of events,but its ,like saying now "Spain had nothing to
with Maine",namely too late .
The luring Japanase to attack Pearl Harbor,in other words "Pearl Harbor trap"
worked well.
I couple of Military intelligence officers could have ruined eveything but they
were not allowed to do so.

No he didnt, he went to the White House with the 14th
part of the Japanese message which contained no
atatck plans at all, not even a declaration of war in fact.

Yeah right!.

No just liars.

Iraqi WMDs for example?

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
1) They didnt


This is the whole point .according to the Government they did
not,according to
the Intelligence officers they did and they did it repeately.
On eve of Pearl Harbor attact,even during a secret White House meeting
they
discussed their Pearl Harbor specific information.
But of course White House denies even this meeting!.


A sekrit meeting with no evidence of course

LOL

Thats why Kimmel and Short were fired.
Halsey on the other hand had a full CAP up,
all his scouts out and had told Kimmel that
if he saw as much as a Sampan he'd sink it.

This message instructed the commanders at Pearl
to prepare for war, they failed to do so and were
fired.

They needed scapegoats to cover their acts otherwise you might be forced
to
think the unthinkable,namely the bringing FDR and Marshall to the Justice
for
treason.
As far as I know even US Congress found Kimmel at no fault and accepted
revisionistic version of events,but its ,like saying now "Spain had
nothing to
with Maine",namely too late .

Incorrect, the findings of the 3 congressional investigations
are a matter of record.


The luring Japanase to attack Pearl Harbor,in other words "Pearl Harbor
trap"
worked well.
I couple of Military intelligence officers could have ruined eveything but
they
were not allowed to do so.

No he didnt, he went to the White House with the 14th
part of the Japanese message which contained no
atatck plans at all, not even a declaration of war in fact.

Yeah right!.

No just liars.

Iraqi WMDs for example?



Nice attempt to change the subject but you've
just proved how difficult cover up's really are.

Keith




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Incorrect, the findings of the 3 congressional investigations
are a matter of record.


As no US president would sign these findings of Congress.(Even if I were the
President I would not sign it.period.
If you officially accept the fact that FDR and Washington establishment
allowed the slaughtering of Americans in Pearl Harbor for the sake of long term
national interests,every action of US establisment become suspicious.
And more importantly no US Administration and agency would be able to conduct
"vaccination" operations involving the deaths of US citizens in the future even
if they were in long term interests of US.
Nice attempt to change the subject but you've
just proved how difficult cover up's really are.

WMD issue is not the first lie of our "Great Leaders" to the public and it wont
be the last either.
But in information age lies do not last for forever.

This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a buggy news server.

Denyav wrote in message ...
As a result Kimmel and Short were sent a message that
began "This is to be considered a war warning"

They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period.

The war warnings did not mention Pearl Harbor as the target,

The War warning sent to Pearl on 26 November, to the Army,

"Negotiations with Japanese appear to be terminated to all practical
purposes with only the barest possibilities that the Japanese
Government might come back and offer to continue. Japanese future
action unpredictable but hostile action possible at any moment. If
hostilities cannot, repeat can not, be avoided the U. S. desires that
Japan commit the first overt act. This policy should not, repeat not,
be construed as restricting you to a course of action at might jeopardize
your defense. Prior to Japanese hostile action you are directed to
undertake such reconnaissance and other measures as you deem
necessary but these measures should be carried out so as not, repeat
not, to alarm the civil population or disclose intent. Report measures
taken. Should hostilities occur, you will carry out task signed in Rainbow
Five as far as they pertain to Japan. Limit dissemination of this highly
secret information to minimum essential officers. "

To the navy,

"Consider this dispatch a war warning. The negotiations with Japan in
an effort to stabilize conditions in the Pacific have ended. Japan is
expected to make aggressive move within the next few days. An
amphibious expedition against either the Philippines, Thai, or Kra
Peninsula or possibly Borneo is indicated by the number and equipment
of Japanese troops and the organization of their naval task forces. You
will execute a defensive deployment in preparation for carrying out the
tasks assigned in WPL-46 only. Guam, Samoa and Continental Districts
have been directed to take appropriate measures against sabotage. A
similar warning is being sent by the War Department. Inform naval district
and Army authorities. British to be informed by Spenavo."

The navy received a copy of the army message on 28 November.

Strategy and Command, the first two years by Louis Morton, (US Army
in WWII, War in the Pacific series)

page 119,

"In view of the seriousness of the situation, the Army and Navy chiefs
felt that commanders in the Pacific should be warned immediately.
Already, the Navy had sent out word on the 24th-to be passed on to
the Army commanders-that prospects for an agreement with Japan
were slight and that Japanese troop movements indicated that "a
surprise aggressive movement in any direction, including attack on
Philippines or Guam" was a possibility. [37] Now, on the 27th,
Stimson asked General Gerow whether the Army should not send a
warning. Gerow showed him the Navy message of the 24th, but this
failed to satisfy Stimson who observed that the President wanted a
warning message sent to the Philippines. As a result, a fresh warning,
considered a "final alert," was sent to Hawaii, the Philippines, Panama,
and San Francisco. The commander of each of these garrisons was
told of the status of the negotiations with Japan, the imminence of
hostilities, and the desirability of having Japan commit the "first overt
act." Each was instructed to "undertake such reconnaissance and other
measures" as he thought necessary and to carry out the tasks assigned
in the war plan if hostilities occurred. With the exception of MacArthur,
each of the commanders was also warned not to alarm the civilian
population or to "disclose intent." At the same time G-2 of the War
Department sent an additional and briefer message to Hawaii and
Panama, but not to the Philippines, warning against subversive activities."

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/70-7_04.htm

has the text on line, in this case on page 117. Strange as it might seem
the army basically sent the same message to all its Pacific commands.

So which is it ?
Did he try to contact people or do nothing

Do you think that Navy and Army units in Pasific were alerted and waiting for
Japanase to attack?

The units were alerted but history showed not to the extent they
needed to be.

Hardly a blueprint of the Pearl Harbor attack plan.

You could only say that if officers of US military intelligence had NOT told to
their superiors cleary "Target is Pearl Harbor" but they did say exactly that
since Nov,28.

There was no Pearl Harbor warning delivered to the US and the last
people to know of one would have been the army intelligence, they
were not watching the IJN.

The diplomatic cables give no warning on any of the Japanese
attacks, only that there was a high probability someone would
be attacked.

Title: The "Magic" background of Pearl Harbor.
Publisher: [Washington] : Dept. of Defence, U.S.A. : for sale by
the Supt. of Docs., U.S. Govt. Print. Off., [1978]
Description: 5 v. in 8 : maps (on lining paper) ; 27 cm.

It contains the cables, including decode dates, the transcripts
of bugged Japan-US phone calls and state department assessments
of the various meetings.

There is a project at Purdue University to put the above books into
electronic form with an index, I am unsure about its current status.

See also

Author: Komatsu, Keiichiro.
Title: Origins of the Pacific War and the importance of 'magic'.
Publisher: New York : St. Martin's Press, 1999.

Where as part of the work the author looks at the problems with translating
Japanese into English and what sort of effects mistranslations had.

So since Nov,28 they knew the target thanks to work of a few men.

No, the US intelligence system never predicted the attack on Pearl.
Some in US Army intelligence did pick up the "things are automatically
going to happen" message and then predicted the Japanese would
begin the war on the first Sunday after the deadline, that is 30 November
1941. This did not help the credibility of later predictions.

Since their superiors did not respond to their warnings one of
them,Thurman,sidestepped the line of command and personaly went all way up to
White House,with very clear warning of japanase attack with the name of the
target "Pearl Harbor".

Which work of fiction states this?

The Thurman knew it line appears to be part of the Pearl Harbor
movie plot. Presumably the system noticed it was really Dan
Aykroyd in disguise with false ID.

See for example, http://www.epinions.com/content_68513926788

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email