Libelle 201 query

A fantastic result, Frank!
Great photo, quite appropriate. Don't sleep with the Libelle every night, make time to watch "Zulu Romeo" again to look for CT.
Oops, sorry I didn't remember the right Gilbert.
Jim

Originally Posted by JS

A fantastic result, Frank!
Great photo, quite appropriate. Don't sleep with the Libelle every night, make time to watch "Zulu Romeo" again to look for CT.
Oops, sorry I didn't remember the right Gilbert.
Jim

Nick, the belly release works, as it is used as part of the trailer restraint system.
She is fitted for water, but the bags are removed. The last owner made some new ones, but didn't fit them, as he wasn't happy with the result. I have them now, but will not be installing. I don't like the idea of winch launch failure, and a hurried landing with full wings. It comes with an old radio that is functional, Flarm, and some sort of GPS nav system I haven't even looked at yet. The instruments are old but adequate for now. My club has 4 parachutes which rarely see the light of day, as almost nobody flys the singles. I will use one of those for a while.
I will definitely have another look at ZR again and see if I can spot her!

Sounds good.

As far as the water is concerned, Libelles only hold 50 litres anyway so it wouldn't be too much of an issue in the event of a launch failure. In my memory water in the Libelle didn't really make an enormous difference with performance, but it did make it feel a little less like a cork in the ocean in turbulent conditions.

As far as the Balaklava parachutes are concerned, I had custody of one of them over the summer, as Eric borrowed mine for the Junior Worlds.

Nick

On Friday, 5 February 2016 12:13:05 UTC+10:30, Ommadawn wrote:
JS;919246 Wrote:
A fantastic result, Frank!
Great photo, quite appropriate. Don't sleep with the Libelle every
night, make time to watch "Zulu Romeo" again to look for CT.
Oops, sorry I didn't remember the right Gilbert.
Jim

Nick, the belly release works, as it is used as part of the trailer
restraint system.
She is fitted for water, but the bags are removed. The last owner made
some new ones, but didn't fit them, as he wasn't happy with the result.
I have them now, but will not be installing. I don't like the idea of
winch launch failure, and a hurried landing with full wings. It comes
with an old radio that is functional, Flarm, and some sort of GPS nav
system I haven't even looked at yet. The instruments are old but
adequate for now. My club has 4 parachutes which rarely see the light of
day, as almost nobody flys the singles. I will use one of those for a
while.
I will definitely have another look at ZR again and see if I can spot
her!


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+



--
Ommadawn

I fitted some larger water ballast bags in a 201B. It does go better, but somehow feels less lovely than a Libelle normally does... Felt more like other gliders!
Jim

On Thu, 04 Feb 2016 21:51:16 +0000, Ommadawn wrote:

She is fitted for water, but the bags are removed. The last owner made
some new ones, but didn't fit them, as he wasn't happy with the result.

Another go-faster trick you might consider is fitting turbulators. This
used to add a point to the UK handicap (89 - 90) though the latest
handicap list seems to have dropped the '+turbulator' handicap. Anyway,
its a full span zigzag mylar turbulator on the under surface just ahead
of the undercambered region. Has no effect at lower speeds, but stops
flow separation in the undercambered area at high speed - at least that's
what I was told. It was on my Libelle when I bought her and certainly
high speed cruise around 70-80 kts shows less height loss than I expected.

If you're interested, talk to Glasfaser, who can supply the tape and/or
fitting instructions.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Originally Posted by Martin Gregorie[_5_]

On Thu, 04 Feb 2016 21:51:16 +0000, Ommadawn wrote:

She is fitted for water, but the bags are removed. The last owner made
some new ones, but didn't fit them, as he wasn't happy with the result.

Another go-faster trick you might consider is fitting turbulators. This
used to add a point to the UK handicap (89 - 90) though the latest
handicap list seems to have dropped the '+turbulator' handicap. Anyway,
its a full span zigzag mylar turbulator on the under surface just ahead
of the undercambered region. Has no effect at lower speeds, but stops
flow separation in the undercambered area at high speed - at least that's
what I was told. It was on my Libelle when I bought her and certainly
high speed cruise around 70-80 kts shows less height loss than I expected.

If you're interested, talk to Glasfaser, who can supply the tape and/or
fitting instructions.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Hi Martin,
That sounds almost too good to be true. Quite a simple mod for tangible gains.
I assembled the bird today and had a good look at her. Everyone was pleased with the choice. I'm a little short of achieving the skill level to fly her just yet, but will work on that. I'm still bashing around in the single Astir. Landings need attention. I have only been back flying since late August, and solo again since mid November. No need to rush.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 11:22:12 +0000, Ommadawn wrote:

'Martin Gregorie[_5_ Wrote:
;919283']On Thu, 04 Feb 2016 21:51:16 +0000, Ommadawn wrote:
-
She is fitted for water, but the bags are removed. The last owner made
some new ones, but didn't fit them, as he wasn't happy with the result.
-
Another go-faster trick you might consider is fitting turbulators. This

used to add a point to the UK handicap (89 - 90) though the latest
handicap list seems to have dropped the '+turbulator' handicap. Anyway,

its a full span zigzag mylar turbulator on the under surface just ahead

of the undercambered region. Has no effect at lower speeds, but stops
flow separation in the undercambered area at high speed - at least
that's what I was told. It was on my Libelle when I bought her and
certainly high speed cruise around 70-80 kts shows less height loss
than I expected.

If you're interested, talk to Glasfaser, who can supply the tape and/or

fitting instructions.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |

Hi Martin,
That sounds almost too good to be true. Quite a simple mod for tangible
gains.
I assembled the bird today and had a good look at her. Everyone was
pleased with the choice. I'm a little short of achieving the skill
level to fly her just yet, but will work on that. I'm still bashing
around in the single Astir. Landings need attention. I have only been
back flying since late August, and solo again since mid November. No
need to rush.

Yes, you'll find that landings do require attention because its
relatively weak brakes mean that a Libelle will float further and have
more of a tendency to balloon than most other gliders. For this reason
you'll see a lot of not fully held-off landings done with them: going for
a two point fully held-off landing is almost guaranteed to balloon until
you're fully up to speed with it.

Your early efforts to avoid ballooning a landing will probably result in
a main wheel landing with a tiny bounce. This is normal. FWIW there is
one other Libelle on my field. Its pilot almost always lands this
way, is an instructor, and has at least 5 years more years on type than I
have. I've worked on two-pointing mine 'just because I could' and can now
do that most times, but I've had mine for 10 years and have only managed
mostly two-pointing it for the last 4 years or so.

BTW, its useful get up to speed with slipped approaches. Libelles slip
beautifully with full brakes out and this gives a nice steep and
controllable approach when you need it.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Originally Posted by Martin Gregorie[_5_]

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 11:22:12 +0000, Ommadawn wrote:

'Martin Gregorie[_5_ Wrote:
;919283']On Thu, 04 Feb 2016 21:51:16 +0000, Ommadawn wrote:
-
She is fitted for water, but the bags are removed. The last owner made
some new ones, but didn't fit them, as he wasn't happy with the result.
-
Another go-faster trick you might consider is fitting turbulators. This

used to add a point to the UK handicap (89 - 90) though the latest
handicap list seems to have dropped the '+turbulator' handicap. Anyway,

its a full span zigzag mylar turbulator on the under surface just ahead

of the undercambered region. Has no effect at lower speeds, but stops
flow separation in the undercambered area at high speed - at least
that's what I was told. It was on my Libelle when I bought her and
certainly high speed cruise around 70-80 kts shows less height loss
than I expected.

If you're interested, talk to Glasfaser, who can supply the tape and/or

fitting instructions.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |

Hi Martin,
That sounds almost too good to be true. Quite a simple mod for tangible
gains.
I assembled the bird today and had a good look at her. Everyone was
pleased with the choice. I'm a little short of achieving the skill
level to fly her just yet, but will work on that. I'm still bashing
around in the single Astir. Landings need attention. I have only been
back flying since late August, and solo again since mid November. No
need to rush.

Yes, you'll find that landings do require attention because its
relatively weak brakes mean that a Libelle will float further and have
more of a tendency to balloon than most other gliders. For this reason
you'll see a lot of not fully held-off landings done with them: going for
a two point fully held-off landing is almost guaranteed to balloon until
you're fully up to speed with it.

Your early efforts to avoid ballooning a landing will probably result in
a main wheel landing with a tiny bounce. This is normal. FWIW there is
one other Libelle on my field. Its pilot almost always lands this
way, is an instructor, and has at least 5 years more years on type than I
have. I've worked on two-pointing mine 'just because I could' and can now
do that most times, but I've had mine for 10 years and have only managed
mostly two-pointing it for the last 4 years or so.

BTW, its useful get up to speed with slipped approaches. Libelles slip
beautifully with full brakes out and this gives a nice steep and
controllable approach when you need it.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Hi Martin,
I enquired of the previous owner, who fitted the winglets mod about 5 years ago. He told me that although there didn't seem to be any tangible performance gains, the handling was another issue. Apparently the winglets improve very low speed handling, giving a noticeable improvement in roll response just ahead of stall. The other noticeable change was a definite resistance to side slipping. I imagine this would be a natural thing to expect when adding 'fins' to a wingtip. The long moment arm of the wings would mean that even a small vertical area that far out would resist yawing somewhat.
It will be interesting to see what he means. In any case she will remain in the hangar until I have flown the wings off the club's Astir.

On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 07:52:54 +0000, Ommadawn wrote:

I enquired of the previous owner, who fitted the winglets mod about 5
years ago. He told me that although there didn't seem to be any tangible
performance gains, the handling was another issue. Apparently the
winglets improve very low speed handling, giving a noticeable
improvement in roll response just ahead of stall.

Fair comment. As far as I can tell winglets help at the low speed end of
the performance curve while undersurface turbulators and wing root
fairings improve the high speed performance.

The fairings would be nice because the airflow round the root of early
glass was often horrible and in some cases the wing planform made it even
worse. I thought about fitting fairings, but they are quite large and
would increase the root chord and/or the fuselage width (depending on how
you fit them and where you split them for wing removal), so it seemed
likely that using them would also mean a new trailer. Thats because mine
is a box trailer that was apparently designed on the principle of "pile
all the bits in as small an area as possible, draw a line around that
with a 50mm margin and that's the size of the trailer".


A link you may find interesting and that explains the above is:
http://www.betsybyars.com/guy/soarin.../72-modif.html

I was also looking for another Will Schueman article - the one about how
he diagnosed the low speed airflow problems on his modified ASW-12 and
how he fixed them, but I can't find a link to it. I have a local copy,
but wanted to quote the URL of an online copy. Frank, if nobody comes up
with a link but you'd like to see the article, e-mail me (address is at
end of this post and I'll send you a copy.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Looks good Frank. The undercarriage looks different to usual.

Out of curiosity, what instrumentation came with it? Is the water ballast serviceable?

You got the right Gilbert Jim

Nick.


On Friday, 5 February 2016 02:32:06 UTC+10:30, JS wrote:
A fantastic result, Frank!
Great photo, quite appropriate. Don't sleep with the Libelle every night, make time to watch "Zulu Romeo" again to look for CT.
Oops, sorry I didn't remember the right Gilbert.
Jim