Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve

From: (WalterM140)


The issue is that he did not fulfil his obligation.
He clearly did not.

He clearly did. www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

What kind of pathological paranoia causes people to take these
positions?


The facts do. Not one person came forward to collect Trudeau's $10,000 as
having seen Bush in Alabama.

This proves what? People have come forward saying they saw him there. If it
were me I wouldn't accept the money.


His certificate of service, while characterizing the nature of service as
being
honorable, shows he only served 5 years, 4 months and 5 days of a six year
commitment.

Kerry also took an early out. Many people do. I took teriminal leave and
permissive TDY adding up to over 4 months. Does this mean I was let out early?


What -you- need to show is that Bush did not receive favorable treatment.
But
you can't show that, because the Republican smear/cover-up campaign is is
full
swing.

Ah yes, the "vast right wing conspiracy." Can you prove factually he did
receive special treatment? I mean something beyound "he was the son of a rich
oil man" or some such drivel.


You'd think the Bush partisans would have enough sense to just let this drop.

The people who keep bringing it up are on the other side. Read the thread name.


Senator Kerry is a highly decorated WIA veteran of the Viet Nam war, who
volunteered both for the war and for hazardous duty.

No one has argued that. Funny how the Kerry supporters always bring that up any
time he is criticised about any thing includeing his voting record in the
Senate, isn't it? For every man in the field in Viet Nam there was another
dozen or so in country who wasn't. Was there service any less honourable or
important than theirs?

The best case scenario for Bush is that he just slid by and did the absolute
-minimum- possible to maintain his commitment -- which he clearly took in
order
to avoid the draft.

Walt

OK, by my volunteering for active duty I avoided the draft too as did all the
other volunteers.

Since guardsmen and reservists DID serve in Viet Nam Bush was at risk. I have
an idea take a look at the number of reservists and guardsmen killed in Viet
Nam. You will find their names on the wall in D.C. if you care to look.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

"B2431" wrote in message
...

Kerry also took an early out. Many people do. I took teriminal leave and
permissive TDY adding up to over 4 months. Does this mean I was let
out early?


" I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into
the
campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst
possible way. By that I mean that yesterday, during this Presidential
campaign, and even throughout recent times, Vietnam has been discussed and
written about without an adequate statement of its full meaning."

"We do not need to divide America over who served and how. I have
personally always believed that many served in many different ways. Someone
who was deeply against the war in 1969 or 1970 may well have served their
country with equal passion and patriotism by opposing the war as by fighting
in it. Are we now, 20 years or 30 years later, to forget the difficulties of
that time, of families that were literally torn apart, of brothers who
ceased to talk to brothers, of fathers who disowned their sons, of people
who felt compelled to leave the country and forget their own future and turn
against the will of their own aspirations?"

Senator John Kerry, Jan 30, 1992

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 18:20:22 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:



" I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into
the
campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst
possible way. By that I mean that yesterday, during this Presidential
campaign, and even throughout recent times, Vietnam has been discussed and
written about without an adequate statement of its full meaning."

Ahh, yes. That from he who repeatedly inserts Vietnam into the
campaign. How duplicitous.

"We do not need to divide America over who served and how. I have
personally always believed that many served in many different ways. Someone
who was deeply against the war in 1969 or 1970 may well have served their
country with equal passion and patriotism by opposing the war as by fighting
in it. Are we now, 20 years or 30 years later, to forget the difficulties of
that time, of families that were literally torn apart, of brothers who
ceased to talk to brothers, of fathers who disowned their sons, of people
who felt compelled to leave the country and forget their own future and turn
against the will of their own aspirations?"

Senator John Kerry, Jan 30, 1992

Why do I feel this strong urge to regurgitate?

From one of Kerry's accused war criminals...

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...

From one of Kerry's accused war criminals...


"I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others
in that I shot in free fire zones, used harassment and interdiction fire,
joined in search and destroy missions, and burned villages. All of these
acts were established policies from the top down, and the men who ordered
this are war criminals."

"I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and
say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified
to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents
but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of
officers at all levels of command."

John Kerry, April 1971

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 21:28:33 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .

From one of Kerry's accused war criminals...


"I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others
in that I shot in free fire zones, used harassment and interdiction fire,
joined in search and destroy missions, and burned villages. All of these
acts were established policies from the top down, and the men who ordered
this are war criminals."

"I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and
say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified
to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents
but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of
officers at all levels of command."

John Kerry, April 1971


Yeah, ain't war a bitch.

And, wasn't it amazing how many of those "honorably discharged and
....highly decorated..." assholes turned out to be wannabes and
neverweres.

Just last month in Nashville, I met with seven hundred combat aviators
from that conflict who wouldn't urinate on Kerry if he were aflame.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

From: Ed Rasimus

snip

Just last month in Nashville, I met with seven hundred combat aviators
from that conflict who wouldn't urinate on Kerry if he were aflame.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


Isn't burning politicians a violation of EPA?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Just last month in Nashville, I met with seven hundred combat aviators
from that conflict who wouldn't urinate on Kerry if he were aflame.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Well is drinking Turpentine first allowed?


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

In article ,
Ed Rasimus wrote:

From one of Kerry's accused war criminals...


"I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others
in that I shot in free fire zones, used harassment and interdiction fire,
joined in search and destroy missions, and burned villages. All of these
acts were established policies from the top down, and the men who ordered
this are war criminals."

"I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and
say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified
to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents
but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of
officers at all levels of command."

John Kerry, April 1971


Yeah, ain't war a bitch.

And, wasn't it amazing how many of those "honorably discharged and
...highly decorated..." assholes turned out to be wannabes and
neverweres.

Just last month in Nashville, I met with seven hundred combat aviators
from that conflict who wouldn't urinate on Kerry if he were aflame.


One interesting thing I've noted is that Vietnam vets who fought
hand-to-hand combat seem to overwhelmingly be far less retroactively
gung-ho on the war than those who flew fixed wing far above. Why do you
suppose that is?


--Mike

Michael Wise wrote:
In article ,
Ed Rasimus wrote:

From one of Kerry's accused war criminals...


"I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others
in that I shot in free fire zones, used harassment and interdiction fire,
joined in search and destroy missions, and burned villages. All of these
acts were established policies from the top down, and the men who ordered
this are war criminals."

"I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and
say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified
to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents
but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of
officers at all levels of command."

John Kerry, April 1971


Yeah, ain't war a bitch.

And, wasn't it amazing how many of those "honorably discharged and
...highly decorated..." assholes turned out to be wannabes and
neverweres.

Just last month in Nashville, I met with seven hundred combat aviators
from that conflict who wouldn't urinate on Kerry if he were aflame.


One interesting thing I've noted is that Vietnam vets who fought
hand-to-hand combat seem to overwhelmingly be far less retroactively
gung-ho on the war than those who flew fixed wing far above. Why do you
suppose that is?

Maybe because they were fighting different kinds of wars. They each had their
own peculiar and different kinds of hell, but generally speaking, the one aloft
was a whole lot cleaner and smelled a whole lot better than the one on the
ground.

George Z.


--Mike

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 05:27:27 GMT, Michael Wise wrote:

One interesting thing I've noted is that Vietnam vets who fought
hand-to-hand combat seem to overwhelmingly be far less retroactively
gung-ho on the war than those who flew fixed wing far above. Why do you
suppose that is?


There could be a number of reasons. First, the number who today claim
"hand-to-hand combat" seems unfortunately to be drastically inflated
by thousands of poseurs claiming to be something they were not. See
Burkitt's "Stolen Valor" for some astonishing tales.

Of those who served on the ground, the proportion of career to draftee
and officer to lower-rank enlisted could change the perception of
events. Of ground vets from Vietnam, I have seldom encountered any
that went so far as John Kerry in their condemnation of their fellow
warriors. I know of none that have called their service traitorous,
their actions and those of their comrades criminal, or their service
dishonorable. Maybe I don't travel in the right circles.

As for those who flew "far above", you might want to consider the
sustained loss rates of the Rolling Thunder participants in comparison
to those "hand-to-hand" combats. Or, maybe check the proportion of
POWs between the ground and air combatants.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8