Two MOH Winners say Bush Didn't Serve

In article ,
Ed Rasimus wrote:

" I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into
the
campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst
possible way. By that I mean that yesterday, during this Presidential
campaign, and even throughout recent times, Vietnam has been discussed and
written about without an adequate statement of its full meaning."

Ahh, yes. That from he who repeatedly inserts Vietnam into the
campaign. How duplicitous.

"We do not need to divide America over who served and how. I have
personally always believed that many served in many different ways. Someone
who was deeply against the war in 1969 or 1970 may well have served their
country with equal passion and patriotism by opposing the war as by fighting
in it. Are we now, 20 years or 30 years later, to forget the difficulties of
that time, of families that were literally torn apart, of brothers who
ceased to talk to brothers, of fathers who disowned their sons, of people
who felt compelled to leave the country and forget their own future and turn
against the will of their own aspirations?"

Senator John Kerry, Jan 30, 1992

Why do I feel this strong urge to regurgitate?

From one of Kerry's accused war criminals...


Ed, can I ask when John Kerry ever said that _everybody_ serving in
Vietnam has committed atrocities and were war criminals (verifiable cite
please)?

I don't see him how saying that atrocities were going on translates to
everybody was doing them.

Or is it that partisanship compels you to play the victim when you're
not one?


--Mike

"Michael Wise" wrote in message
...

Ed, can I ask when John Kerry ever said that _everybody_ serving in
Vietnam has committed atrocities and were war criminals (verifiable cite
please)?

I don't see him how saying that atrocities were going on translates to
everybody was doing them.


Can I ask who said that Kerry said that_everybody_ serving in Vietnam had
committed atrocities and were war criminals? (Verifiable cite please?)

Kerry said that thousands had committed atrocities in Vietnam, that it was a
policy ordered from the top and known at all levels in the chain of command.

"I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others in that I
shot in free fire zones, used harassment and interdiction fire, joined in
search and destroy missions, and burned villages. All of these acts were
established policies from the top down, and the men who ordered this are war
criminals." John Kerry, Senate Foreign Relations Committee, April 1971



"I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several
months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably
discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes
committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes
committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all
levels of command." John Kerry, Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement,
April 23, 1971

In article et,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

Ed, can I ask when John Kerry ever said that _everybody_ serving in
Vietnam has committed atrocities and were war criminals (verifiable cite
please)?

I don't see him how saying that atrocities were going on translates to
everybody was doing them.


Can I ask who said that Kerry said that_everybody_ serving in Vietnam had
committed atrocities and were war criminals? (Verifiable cite please?)


Don't you think its polite to answer previous questions directed at and
ignored by you before demanding cites for subsequent questions not
directed at you??? How about we start with your weak credible evidence
posting.

Even so, I'll entertain you:


06.12.04, 22:21/Ed Rasimus
...From one of Kerry's accused war criminals

How could Ed write such a thing unless either a) he's alleging Mr. Kerry
accused him personally of being a war criminal or b) he's insinuating
that Kerry 30 years ago believed everybody in theater was a war criminal?


Since it's extremely doubtful Mr. Kerry knew Ed then or even knows him
now, b is the logical interpretation.


06.13.04, 15:22/Ed Rasimus
...It isn't Kerry's combat experience that can speak for itself...It is his
conduct during the Winter Soldier testimony, his categorization of the
military still in harm's way as criminals and guilty of atrocities


Ed did not write "most of the military," "some of the military," or even
a "few of the militart." He wrote "the" military which implies all. He
certainly seems to have a fondness for constantly repeating that John
Kerry accused Ed Rasimus of being a war criminal 30 years ago.




Kerry said that thousands had committed atrocities in Vietnam, that it was a
policy ordered from the top and known at all levels in the chain of command.


Are you talking to me or to Ed?


"I committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others in that I
shot in free fire zones, used harassment and interdiction fire, joined in
search and destroy missions, and burned villages. All of these acts were
established policies from the top down, and the men who ordered this are war
criminals." John Kerry, Senate Foreign Relations Committee, April 1971


I don't see anything overtly unbelievable in that statement made 30+
years ago. Such statements probably hold true in most wars on either
side since the dawn of man.


"I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several
months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably
discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes
committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes
committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all
levels of command." John Kerry, Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement,
April 23, 1971

see above response


--Mike

"Michael Wise" wrote in message
...

Don't you think its polite to answer previous questions directed at and
ignored by you before demanding cites for subsequent questions not
directed at you??? How about we start with your weak credible evidence
posting.


What the hell are you talking about?



Even so, I'll entertain you:


06.12.04, 22:21/Ed Rasimus
...From one of Kerry's accused war criminals

How could Ed write such a thing unless either a) he's alleging Mr. Kerry
accused him personally of being a war criminal or b) he's insinuating
that Kerry 30 years ago believed everybody in theater was a war criminal?


I'll take that to be an admission that nobody said that Kerry said
that_everybody_ serving in Vietnam had committed atrocities and were war
criminals.



Are you talking to me or to Ed?


I responded to your message, my statement follows quoted material written by
you, it should be obvious I'm talking to you.

The facts do. Not one person came forward to collect Trudeau's $10,000 as
having seen Bush in Alabama.

This proves what? People have come forward saying they saw him there. If it
were me I wouldn't accept the money.

Nobody gets to COLLECT the money. Trudeau was giving it to a charity
of his choice.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

Nobody gets to COLLECT the money. Trudeau was giving it to a charity
of his choice.

You wouldn't donate $10,000 to the USO if all you had to do was contact Gary
Trudeau with a valid story?

Walt

Nobody gets to COLLECT the money. Trudeau was giving it to a charity
of his choice.

That's true....the contest rules were that if someone presented credible and
valid evidence of Bush's military service, the money would be donated in his
name to the USO. Here's the rule and, if you don't believe me, I've also
included the link so you can see for yourself:

"Q: Is there some sort of hitch?
A: Well, yes, but it's a hitch for a good cause. The winner won't actually
receive the reward for himself; instead we'll be donating $10,000 in his name to
the USO. That way everyone's a winner, including GBT's tax accountant"

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/bush_guard.html

He only gave it to the USO after unsuccessfully waiting for months for somebody
to come forward with some credible evidence. When nobody did, he turned the
money over to the USO even though there was no winner.

George Z.

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

That's true....the contest rules were that if someone presented credible
and valid evidence of Bush's military service, the money would be
donated in his name to the USO. Here's the rule and, if you don't believe
me, I've also included the link so you can see for yourself:

"Q: Is there some sort of hitch?
A: Well, yes, but it's a hitch for a good cause. The winner won't actually
receive the reward for himself; instead we'll be donating $10,000 in his
name to the USO. That way everyone's a winner, including GBT's tax
accountant"

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/bush_guard.html


That site states; "That's right, we're offering $10,000 cash! Yours to
either spend or invest in job creation. All you have to do is definitively
prove that George W. Bush fulfilled his duty to country."



He only gave it to the USO after unsuccessfully waiting for months for
somebody to come forward with some credible evidence. When
nobody did, he turned the money over to the USO even though there
was no winner.


But someone did come forward with some credible evidence. Did Trudeau make
the donation in the name of John Calhoun or did he renege on his promise?


http://makeashorterlink.com/?F22924488


Former Guardsman: Bush served with me in Alabama

By the Associated Press

A retired Alabama Air National Guard officer said Friday that he remembers
George Bush showing up for duty in Alabama in 1972, reading safety magazines
and flight manuals in an office as he performed his weekend obligations.
"I saw him each drill period," retired Lt. Col. John "Bill" Calhoun said in
a telephone interview with The Associated Press from Daytona Beach, Fla.,
where he is preparing to watch this weekend's big NASCAR race.

"He was very aggressive about doing his duty there. He never complained
about it. ... He was very dedicated to what he was doing in the Guard. He
showed up on time and he left at the end of the day."

Calhoun, whose name was supplied to the AP by a Republican close to Bush, is
the first member of the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group to recall Bush
distinctly at the Alabama base in the period of 1972-1973. He was the unit's
flight safety officer.

The 69-year-old president of an Atlanta insulation company said Bush showed
up for work at Dannelly Air National Guard Base for drills on at least six
occasions. Bush and Calhoun had both been trained as fighter pilots, and
Calhoun said the two would swap "war stories" and even eat lunch together on
base.

Calhoun is named in 187th unit rosters obtained by the AP as serving under
the deputy commander of operations plans. Bush was in Alabama on non-flying
status.

"He sat in my office most of the time - he would read," Calhoun said. "He
had your training manuals from your aircraft he was flying. He'd study those
some. He'd read safety magazines, which is a common thing for pilots."

Democrats have asked for proof that Bush, then a 1st lieutenant with the
Texas Air National Guard, turned up for duty in Alabama, where Bush had
asked to be assigned while he worked on the U.S. Senate campaign of family
friend Winton "Red" Blount.

Pay and medical records released by the White House this week failed to
quash allegations that Bush shirked his Guard responsibilities. (Related
story: Bush's driving records disclosed)

The 187th's former commander, retired Brig. Gen. William Turnipseed, has
said he doesn't remember Bush ever turning up on base, and more than a dozen
members of the 800-person unit, including its commander, told The Associated
Press this week they have no recollection of Bush. Critics have made much of
the fact that the White House has failed to produce anyone who could
remember seeing Bush there.

Calhoun said he contacted Texas GOP leaders with his story in 2000 when the
issue was raised just before the November general election.

"I got on the phone and got information and called Austin, Texas, and talked
to the Republican campaign. They said I was talking to the campaign
manager," he said. "I told him my story and said I would be glad to provide
information to that effect. At that time they said ... The story is not
true. And we don't think it's got enough weight to stay out as a story.' And
they said, 'But if it does we'll call you back.' And I never heard from them
again."

Last week as the issue raged again, Calhoun sent an e-mail to the White
House offering to tell his story. "I got a response back, one of those
automatic responses," he said. It wasn't until his wife contacted Georgia
GOP officials that Calhoun's name surfaced.

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Friday that the White House
was not making any effort to try to locate people who might have served with
Bush. He also accused reporters of trying to raise new lines of questioning,
beyond whether Bush served in Alabama.

Critics have suggested that Bush used his family connections to get the safe
Guard assignment ahead of thousands of others. But Calhoun said Bush never
mentioned his congressman father while they sat together at Dannelly.

"I knew he was working in the senatorial campaign, and I asked him if he was
going to be a politician," said Calhoun, who is a staunch Republican. "And
he said, 'I don't know. Probably.'"

Calhoun has not made any donations to Bush this election season or during
the 2000 season, according to campaign finance records.

In article t,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:


He only gave it to the USO after unsuccessfully waiting for months for
somebody to come forward with some credible evidence. When
nobody did, he turned the money over to the USO even though there
was no winner.


But someone did come forward with some credible evidence. Did Trudeau make
the donation in the name of John Calhoun or did he renege on his promise?


http://makeashorterlink.com/?F22924488


Former Guardsman: Bush served with me in Alabama


So a single person who boasts of being a "staunch Republican" and whose
name was given to the press by "a Republican close to Bush" and who
claims to have witnessed all these appearances which nobody else can
recall constitutes credible evidence on your planet?


--Mike

"Michael Wise" wrote in message
...

So a single person who boasts of being a "staunch Republican"


What boast?



and whose
name was given to the press by "a Republican close to Bush" and who
claims to have witnessed all these appearances which nobody else can
recall constitutes credible evidence on your planet?


Yes, on my planet, Earth, this man is a credible witness. Not so on your
planet?