Tow Tracker

On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 05:08:50 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
There's no need for take off and landing times of the tug.

Unless you're at a club which charges aerotow fees based on the time the tug is airborne.

Well I didn't mention it, but I also logged tach time.

On 3/7/2016 10:13 PM, Surge wrote:
On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 05:08:50 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
There's no need for take off and landing times of the tug.
Unless you're at a club which charges aerotow fees based on the time the tug is airborne.

--
Dan, 5J

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 11:13:11 PM UTC-6, Surge wrote:
On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 05:08:50 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
There's no need for take off and landing times of the tug.

Unless you're at a club which charges aerotow fees based on the time the tug is airborne.

I'm not sure I fully understand the logic in charging by time instead of altitude - unless your glider pilots are in the habit of hanging on to a tow? Seems to put the glider pilot at the mercy of the weather and tow pilot skill...

Our club charges by altitude, and solve the problem of bookkeeping by making the glider pilot himself responsible for filling in his release altitude. If he forgets, a standard 3000' fee is charged - usually a pretty good deterrent! We do have to log pilot and times, and are looking for a more high-tech solution than clipboard and pencil - but I'm not holding my breath ;^)

Kirk
66

Another flaw with charging by time is those towpilots that want to "build time" or take longer to get back after the glider gets off, or keep on climbing even after the glider released, etc. No system will be perfect.

At my club, glider pilot fills out a ticket. Has his name, address (for billing), date, glider type, speed, and planned release altitude. Towpilot is handed the ticket, puts his initial on it, tow number for the day, and starting tach time. If the glider pilot gets off early, he still gets to pay to his desired height, unless the towpilot changes the ticket. If he gets off late, and the towpilot does not change the ticket, he got some free altitude. And we bill in 1000 foot increments.

Yes, we still use hand signals for take up slack and go. We have far more non-towpilots than we have towpilots, so to try and have all contribute equally to running the club, we have more people scheduled on line duty than we have scheduled towpilots each day. So, we have someone on ground ops at the front and back of the tow rope. We think our system works pretty good. Although, I did just have a day's worth of tickets from November show up with the ones from our last day of flying in February...

Steve Leonard
Kansas Soaring Association

On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 20:56:51 UTC+2, Steve Leonard wrote:
Another flaw with charging by time is those towpilots that want to "build time" or take longer to get back after the glider gets off, or keep on climbing even after the glider released, etc. No system will be perfect.

Going a bit OT now but:
Billing on time (Hobbs or stop watch) isn't perfect but it's the closest way to bill according to the operating cost of a tug. The more engine time on the tug the higher the fuel cost and the shorter the inspection/maintenance intervals.

We don't have problems with tug pilots trying to "build time" and in any case time based fees are a great deterrent to people dawdling. If the glider pilot get's a massive aerotow charge he will make sure that the tug pilot doesn't decide to do any short cross country flights at his expense again. With a height based fee structure a 2000 foot tow could take 5 minutes or 30 minutes depending on the tug pilot and in the end the club would carry the cost.

Time based also means that the glider pilot can release any time he has a thermal so quite often a 4 to 5 minute aerotow is all that is required and costs the glider pilot about $14 USD. Most tows are around 8 minutes long (~2000 feet AGL) and cost about $23 USD (and I'm at one of the more expensive clubs in South Africa).

Surge it looks like its time for me to immigrate to south africa, here in the Southeast US I am paying around $40 for a 2k tow. Any top dressing (crop dusting) jobs down your way? If so I'll be packing my bags and shipping the old 1-26 your way.
Dan

There are definitely top dressing jobs going.

On 2016-03-09 13:13, wrote:
Surge it looks like its time for me to immigrate to south africa, here in the Southeast US I am paying around $40 for a 2k tow. Any top dressing (crop dusting) jobs down your way? If so I'll be packing my bags and shipping the old 1-26 your way.
Dan


--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

Surely if you charge by altitude (or rather- height) the lighter gliders
will be
subsidising the heavier, probably 2 seat gliders? You may wish to do that.
But
time seems fairer to me.

I believe the UK generally does Height, while France in my experience does

Hobbs time.

At 18:21 08 March 2016, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 11:13:11 PM UTC-6, Surge wrote:
On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 05:08:50 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
There's no need for take off and landing times of the tug.
=20
Unless you're at a club which charges aerotow fees based on the time
the
=
tug is airborne.

I'm not sure I fully understand the logic in charging by time instead of
al=
titude - unless your glider pilots are in the habit of hanging on to a
tow?=
Seems to put the glider pilot at the mercy of the weather and tow pilot
sk=
ill...

Our club charges by altitude, and solve the problem of bookkeeping by
makin=
g the glider pilot himself responsible for filling in his release
altitude.=
If he forgets, a standard 3000' fee is charged - usually a pretty good
de=
terrent! We do have to log pilot and times, and are looking for a more
high=
-tech solution than clipboard and pencil - but I'm not holding my breath
;=
^)

Kirk
66

On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 2:15:06 PM UTC-5, Steve Thompson wrote:
Surely if you charge by altitude (or rather- height) the lighter gliders
will be
subsidising the heavier, probably 2 seat gliders? You may wish to do that.
But
time seems fairer to me.

I believe the UK generally does Height, while France in my experience does

Hobbs time.

At 18:21 08 March 2016, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 11:13:11 PM UTC-6, Surge wrote:
On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 05:08:50 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
There's no need for take off and landing times of the tug.
=20
Unless you're at a club which charges aerotow fees based on the time
the
=
tug is airborne.

I'm not sure I fully understand the logic in charging by time instead of
al=
titude - unless your glider pilots are in the habit of hanging on to a
tow?=
Seems to put the glider pilot at the mercy of the weather and tow pilot
sk=
ill...

Our club charges by altitude, and solve the problem of bookkeeping by
makin=
g the glider pilot himself responsible for filling in his release
altitude.=
If he forgets, a standard 3000' fee is charged - usually a pretty good
de=
terrent! We do have to log pilot and times, and are looking for a more
high=
-tech solution than clipboard and pencil - but I'm not holding my breath
;=
^)

Kirk
66


We bill both ways (although one is far more common in practice),
and I suspect we're like a lot. We bill normal tows by altitude
but cross country retrieval is billed by Hobbs time.

Matt

On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 12:43:36 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 2:15:06 PM UTC-5, Steve Thompson wrote:
Surely if you charge by altitude (or rather- height) the lighter gliders
will be
subsidising the heavier, probably 2 seat gliders? You may wish to do that.
But
time seems fairer to me.

I believe the UK generally does Height, while France in my experience does

Hobbs time.

At 18:21 08 March 2016, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 11:13:11 PM UTC-6, Surge wrote:
On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 05:08:50 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
There's no need for take off and landing times of the tug.
=20
Unless you're at a club which charges aerotow fees based on the time
the
=
tug is airborne.

I'm not sure I fully understand the logic in charging by time instead of
al=
titude - unless your glider pilots are in the habit of hanging on to a
tow?=
Seems to put the glider pilot at the mercy of the weather and tow pilot
sk=
ill...

Our club charges by altitude, and solve the problem of bookkeeping by
makin=
g the glider pilot himself responsible for filling in his release
altitude.=
If he forgets, a standard 3000' fee is charged - usually a pretty good
de=
terrent! We do have to log pilot and times, and are looking for a more
high=
-tech solution than clipboard and pencil - but I'm not holding my breath
;=
^)

Kirk
66


We bill both ways (although one is far more common in practice),
and I suspect we're like a lot. We bill normal tows by altitude
but cross country retrieval is billed by Hobbs time.

Matt


Maybe you cold sign all of the towplanes/tow pilots up as Uber drivers, then Uber would do the billing for you automatically - based on time and distance.

[just kidding]

9B