For Keith Willshaw...

US engagement in WW2 was in response to an attack just before a declaration
of war by Japan and another attack just after a declaration of war by
Germany.


1)If you read some history,you must know that FDR was very eager for US
engagement.
2)If you read history you must also know that that FDR promised the nation not
enter war unless attacked (a requirement of domestic politics)

A solution to satisfy two contradictionary requirements=The Pearl Harbor trap

Pearl Harbor was only one of US (Union) vaccination operations.
Short history of US (Union) is full of such operations ,like
Ft.Sumter,Maine,Pearl Harbor,9/11 you name it.

If Hitler'd won the war , Nazi version of Reichstag fire would be the official
version.period.

Reading history from the books is by no means enough,one must learn to "read"
events themselves.

Denyav wrote in message ...

Firstly part of my deleted text,

There was no Pearl Harbor warning delivered to the US and the last
people to know of one would have been the army intelligence, they
were not watching the IJN.

The diplomatic cables give no warning on any of the Japanese
attacks, only that there was a high probability someone would
be attacked.

Title: The "Magic" background of Pearl Harbor.
Publisher: [Washington] : Dept. of Defence, U.S.A. : for sale by
the Supt. of Docs., U.S. Govt. Print. Off., [1978]
Description: 5 v. in 8 : maps (on lining paper) ; 27 cm.

Pardon me,but but by repeating official stories we cannot learn much more than
what we already know.

Let us see the claim what the war warning messages contained about
Pearl Harbor is deleted, along with the actual messages themselves,
since the truth destroys the claim. Now comes the decision to delete
the transcripts of the Japanese messages, since the claimed "attack
Pearl Harbor" message does not exist the actual record needs to be
deleted as well.

More deleted text,

"It contains the cables, including decode dates, the transcripts
of bugged Japan-US phone calls and state department assessments
of the various meetings.

There is a project at Purdue University to put the above books into
electronic form with an index, I am unsure about its current status.

See also

Author: Komatsu, Keiichiro.
Title: Origins of the Pacific War and the importance of 'magic'.
Publisher: New York : St. Martin's Press, 1999.

Where as part of the work the author looks at the problems with translating
Japanese into English and what sort of effects mistranslations had."

I suggest reading the messages, they tell you lots, things like the
maps of Panama that were so good a courier was to take them to
Japan. The ships in harbour messages from the other ports, not
just Hawaii and so on.

Kimmel and/or his descendants were given chance to defend themselves and to
challenge to official version only TWICE,one Navy investigation (There were
several Navy investigations but in only one he was allowed to defend himself
aganist charges !!!) the other was Congressional and both of them came to
conclusion that Kimmel should be exhonorated.period.

Try again, the Congressional investigation found against Kimmel.
The navy investigation found for him. By the way investigations
are about deciding charges, trials are for defending charges.

1) Roberts Commission, 1941/42 found against Kimmel and Short
2) Hart Inquiry in 1944, mainly evidence collecting
3) Pearl Harbor Army Board in 1944, criticised Short, Marshall and Gerow.
4) Naval Court of Inquiry, exonerated Kimmel.
5) Clausen Investigation, 1944/45, mainly evidence gathering. (He wrote
a book on it and gives Kimmel and Short the highest rankings in the
contributors to the defeat list.)
6) Hewitt Inquiry, 1945, follow on to Naval court, Kimmel denied access,
no report published.
7) Clarke Investigation, 1944/45 investigation into claims of documents
being destroyed, found this not to be the case.
8) Joint Congressional Committee, 1945/46, Hawaiian commanders guilty
of errors of judgement, not dereliction of duty.

Kimmels defense were basically "FDR-Stimson-Marshall trio wanted it
happen and made it happen by witholding information that was known in
Washington and London.

Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen.

All "official" facts were known to panelists but they still accepted Kimmels
version.

If one entity becomes evidence collector ,DA,police,judge,jury and executioner
the evidence that they present becomes irrelevant.

I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair.

The Thurman knew it line appears to be part of the Pearl Harbor
movie plot. Presumably the system noticed it was really Dan
Aykroyd in disguise with false ID.

See for example, http://www.epinions.com/content_68513926788

Military Intelligence Characters of this movie were based on real characters
moreover they and/or their relatives were interviewed by the the makers of the
movie.

I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these
claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the
people the pilots and nurse were based on as well? Found the message
the plot line was based on as well? Double checked the interviews were
with people present, not relatives reporting hearsay 60 years later?

Perhaps the fundamental reality that the US Army intelligence people
did not work on IJN codes will intrude at some stage.

Alternatively Hollywood movies said to be fiction can be taken as the
truth, so the US has Luke Skywalker hiding somewhere no doubt.
John Wayne won WWII almost single-handed, serving in all branches
of the US military?

It sums up the "evidence" quite well when a Hollywood entertainment
product is the source of truth.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

The diplomatic cables give no warning on any of the Japanese
attacks, only that there was a high probability someone would
be attacked.


Really? Now two quotas from "recent" law the requesting exonoration of Kimmel:
1)"Numerous investigations following the attack on Pearl Harbor have documented
that Adm.Kimmel and Lt.Gen.Short were not provided neccesary and critical
intelligence that was available, that was foretold of war with Japan,that
warned of imminent attack,and that would have alerted them to prepare for the
attack,including such essential communiques as the Pearl Harbor Bomb Plot
message of Sep.24,1941 and the message sent from IJ Foreign ministry to
Japanase Ambassador in US from Dec 6 to 7 1941,known as fourteen part message".
2)"On July 1997 Adm.Richardson USN (Ret) responded to Dorn report with his own
study which confirmed the findings of the Naval Court of Inquiry and and Army
Pearl Harbor Board of Investigations and established ,among other facts,that
the war effert in 1941 was undermined by a restrictive distrubution policy,and
the degree to which the commanders of US forces in Hawai were not alerted
about impending attack was directly attributable to the witholding of
intelligence from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short".) Roberts Commission, 1941/42
found against Kimmel and Short
2) Hart Inquiry in 1944, mainly evidence collecting
3) Pearl Harbor Army Board in 1944, criticised Short, Marshall and Gerow.
4) Naval Court of Inquiry, exonerated Kimmel.
5) Clausen Investigation, 1944/45, mainly evidence gathering. (He wrote
a book on it and gives Kimmel and Short the highest rankings in the
contributors to the defeat list.)
6) Hewitt Inquiry, 1945, follow on to Naval court, Kimmel denied access,
no report published.
7) Clarke Investigation, 1944/45 investigation into claims of documents
being destroyed, found this not to be the case.
8) Joint Congressional Committee, 1945/46, Hawaiian commanders guilty
of errors of judgement, not dereliction of duty.

In in Nr.4 of this list he was allowed to defend himself,Court exhonorated
him,BUT findings were kept secret.period.
aid to be fiction can be taken as the
truth, so the US has Luke Skywalker hiding somewhere no doubt.
John Wayne won WWII almost single-handed, serving in all branches
of the US military?

Dont underestimate Holywood,Its nations premier quasi-governmental PSYOP
organization.
For more info check out:
"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
US engagement in WW2 was in response to an attack just before a
declaration
of war by Japan and another attack just after a declaration of war by
Germany.


1)If you read some history,you must know that FDR was very eager for US
engagement.
2)If you read history you must also know that that FDR promised the nation
not
enter war unless attacked (a requirement of domestic politics)

A solution to satisfy two contradictionary requirements=The Pearl Harbor
trap

and so you head off into the land of the lunatics.


Pearl Harbor was only one of US (Union) vaccination operations.
Short history of US (Union) is full of such operations ,like
Ft.Sumter,Maine,Pearl Harbor,9/11 you name it.

If Hitler'd won the war , Nazi version of Reichstag fire would be the
official
version.period.

Reading history from the books is by no means enough,one must learn to
"read"
events themselves.

Or to put another way, paranoid dip****s like yourself learn to "read"
anything that matches your delusions into being "truth".

What an "interesting" world you must inhabit, where your totally unsupported
opinion = "truth".

The other name for that condition is "insanity".

Subject: For Keith Willshaw...
From: (Denyav)
Date: 6/10/2004 9:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

US engagement in WW2 was in response to an attack just before a declaration
of war by Japan and another attack just after a declaration of war by
Germany.


1)If you read some history,you must know that FDR was very eager for US
engagement.
2)If you read history you must also know that that FDR promised the nation
not
enter war unless attacked (a requirement of domestic politics)

A solution to satisfy two contradictionary requirements=The Pearl Harbor trap

Pearl Harbor was only one of US (Union) vaccination operations.
Short history of US (Union) is full of such operations ,like
Ft.Sumter,Maine,Pearl Harbor,9/11 you name it.

If Hitler'd won the war , Nazi version of Reichstag fire would be the
official
version.period.etter yet,haave been there.

Reading history from the books is by no means enough,one must learn to "read"
events themselves.

Or better yet,have been there.

Or better yet,have been there.


Right.

and so you head off into the land of the lunatics.


Do you really think that you can supress the truth for forever by resorting to
Ad Hominem attacks?Or to put another way, paranoid dip****s like yourself
learn to "read"
anything that matches your delusions into being "truth".

What an "interesting" world you must inhabit, where your totally unsupported
opinion = "truth".

The other name for that condition is "insanity".

Your nervousness is understandable and fully justified.

From: (Denyav)


The diplomatic cables give no warning on any of the Japanese
attacks, only that there was a high probability someone would
be attacked.


Really? Now two quotas from "recent" law the requesting exonoration of
Kimmel:

What "law?" When was it passed? Which president signed it into"law?"

To simplify it for you: a bill passed by Congress doesn't become law until it
is signed by the President.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

To simplify it for you: a bill passed by Congress doesn't become law until it
is signed by the President.


As George Z. clarified,executive Branch refused and still refuses to sign it
and will NEVER sign it (even if the president wants to sign it),which is alone
an indicator that much more than exonoration of two individuals are in the
line.

In article ,
on 08 Jun 2004 03:51:31 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

Which never happened since nobody knew this.
Please none of the 'they broke the codes' bull****.

The IJN didnt transmit the details of this operation,
it was hand carried and the fleet maintained radio silence

No,Sir almost everbody in Washington DC,but surely the names mentioned above as
all them were informed about attack by Col.Bratton and Thurman personaly.
On Nov.28 They officially informed Hull,Stimson and Knox about japanese fleets
target.They did not respond.

How could they do this when they didn't know that the Japanese Carriers were
at sea ?

On eve of Pearl Harbor attack the same team intercepted and decipher the famous
message to Nomura.

Which, if you have read it you would know, has no reference to any target at
all.

Thurman took the message immediately to Adm.Kramer.He took the message but did
not do anything.

What would he do with a message implying that Japan was breaking off
negotiations ?

Thurman tried to contact Stark,Turner and Marshall,no avail, apparently nobody
in Washington DC wants to do something to prevent Pearl Harbor.

Wait, didn't you just say Thurman didn't do anything with the message ?

As last resort Thurman went directly to White House with a car driven by his
wife and wanted to speak with FDR directly.
But instead of FDR he was ablr to speak to Harry Hopkins.

So,Mr.Willshaw after Nov.28 Pearl Harbor attack was not surprise attack to
anybody in Washington DC,it was a very welcomed opportunity.
In other words,Washington was decided to make it happen for domestic politics.

Kimmel was fired, I really dont see him staying
silent in such a situation.

Firing is not a very heavy punishment form

Have you actually READ any of the messages ?


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.