Does How a (Sailplane) Pilot Thinks, Matter?

Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment.

A rather simplistic view, but I've observed (and experienced) the same
since I started flying some 43+ years ago.

Having said that, I've already heard the "good for the masses" appeal in
the statement that one should think about the mess he leaves behind.
That's an individual concern, not mine. I care only about staying alive
and I hope and believe that I have the skill and mainly good sense to
recognize when something is a bad idea FOR ME. If I survive, there's no
"mess" to be concerned with.

I agree with the poster who stated that a pattern of low saves indicates
a problem with judgment. One has to really descend far below the
working band to be executing a low save so I would think he's on final
glide and misjudged it. Low saves out on course may get you home if
done safely, but they surely don't make a lot of points.

Dan

On 4/1/2016 9:34 AM, BobW wrote:
Thought I'd start a new thread, kinda-sorta forked off one "festering"
in "The Boy Who Flew With Condors" thread (which I re-watched last
night for the first time in decades; cool!)...

On the card is a Grudge Match between two (irreconcilable?) schools of
thought. Will there be a WINNAH?!?

In one corner of the thought ring we have "Sensible Caution," while in
the other corner we have "Dangerously (some will say,
"Irresponsibly"!) Encouraging Personal Limits Expansion." The topic
itself is LOW SAVES - are they Killers or are they a Usefully
Necessary XC Skill?

Offering expert commentary and analysis so far have been conflicted
dustah pilot, Mr. Agcatflyr, who can't seem to decide whether to live
in the frozen wastes of North Dakotah or the flesh-eating swamps of
southern Alabammer, and, the scion of the great Flubber fortune!
Gentlemen - please continue your thoughtful and thought-provoking
analyses!!!

But seriously, kids, this philosophic aspect of "safe flight" has
intrigued me since before I began taking flight lessons. How safe is
"safe enough?" Is life-continuing safety rigidly definable through
numbers? Is there a "best way" to go about inculcating safety into and
throughout the licensed pilot family?

Let's keep the discussion focused by considering ONLY the topic of
"low altitude saves," sooner or later something every XC-considering
sailplane pilot - having the slightest of imaginations - will
consider, and (by definition) will soon actually have to DO, once
undertaking XC, whether such XC occurs pre-planned or not.

For better or worse, the FAA is of little numerical help on this
front. More to the point, the first two shared-between-glider-n-power
GA fields I found myself glider-based at had 200' DIFFERENT
"recommended pattern altitudes": 1000' agl and 800' agl. Having
obtained my license at the 1000' agl pattern field, encountering the
800' agl pattern field as a low-time, newbie, stranger, lacking the
comforting mental embrace of a personally-knowledgeable,
mutually-trusting-instructor, was conumdric: should I fly at the 800'
agl pattern field using the "When in Rome" philosophy of life, thereby
also definitionally and arbitrarily throwing away 20% of my entrained
"pattern safety altitude?" Or should I defy those crazed madmen flying
from the new-to-me field and fly "as safely as I'd been sensibly taught?"

For better or worse, I opted for the "When in Rome" approach,
reasoning it reduced the theoretical chances of a "descending onto
someone else" mid-air, while shifting to me 100% of the responsibility
for not killing myself by augering in due to a "dangerously thin
ground clearance" margin. (I've always felt that way about augering
in! Long before Nancy Reagan took credit for the catchphrase, "Just
say no!" I'd appropriated that same philosophy regarding killing
myself in a sailplane. )

So who's right? Which school of thought is "better"? Let's the contest
begin!!!

Bob W.

P.S. To jumpstart the discussion, know upfront that my "personal
safety philosophies" embrace portions of both schools of thought, and
- so I think - in a non-conflicting manner. And - so far - I've had
only one known-to-me instance when a fellow pilot took serious issue
with my flying...and his back-seater later privately told me he
disagreed with the PIC's take. It seems "absolute agreement" on the
safety front is tough to find among reasonable people!

--
Dan, 5J

Before you pass judgement on someone else's low save comfort level, we also have to ascertain how many times he opted not to try a low save because, in his judgement, it wasn't worth it or safe enough to try. Let's be careful not to assume he always goes for the low thermal just because it worked previously. The real story is more likely a lot more dynamic than that.

Few of us pilots have absolute limits set. We have safe margins that we plan to adhere to that we have to modify based on realtime data and expected outcomes. I couldn't count the times I've made the best plans possible only to have to throw them out the window when weather changed or my personal comfort level dictated I take a different course of action that would keep me/us safe.

In the end, if we want to be 100% safe, we'd have to never takeoff in the first place. Your comfort level and experience dictates your personal safety margins. For most, that means sticking with the numbers arbitrarily agreed upon by the community. For others - Bob Hoover comes to mind - they are comfortable and just as safe with their lower margins because they have considered all of the mitigating factors.

Of course, there are a minority of Darwin-affirming chuckleheads out there that skew the statistics and make us all look bad.

Paul A.
Jupiter, FL

Snip...

Of course, there are a minority of Darwin-affirming chuckleheads out there
that skew the statistics and make us all look bad.

Paul A. Jupiter, FL


"What Paul A. said." No matter what else you do as a pilot, do try to avoid
induction into the Chucklehead Hall of Fame.

Thanks to the all for today's thoughtful replies. It'd be really nifty if
others pondering sharing their thoughts did so, too, even if they violently
disagree (though it'd be additionally nifty if we can keep the disagreements
civil! [For the record, when used in the manner above, in my book
"chucklehead" is quite civil. ]).

Of greater importance - thinks I - than "merely" WHAT a person's opinions are,
is WHY they are. So by all means, share that part, too! Because it's the "why"
bits that tend to drive formation, growth and development of the "what" bits.
By way of example (to indulge in a bit of ad-hominem humor), while I may or
may not care IF someone thinks I'm an idiot, I'm always genuinely curious WHY
they may think that way!

Considering "low saves," I began my "XC career" with a "hard-deck-based"
numerical guideline volunteered to me by my fight instructor. Over the years,
influenced both by increasing experience and "situational awareness," I
"en-fuzzed the number," coming to rely instead on a daily collage of factors
(e.g. terrain, currency, physical/mental state, local weather, etc.). Funnily
enough, I've found my instructor's number amazingly applicable to most
situations; once or twice I thought it FAR more aggressive than the situation
warranted (and flew accordingly, of course); and a few other times I've
intentionally scratched below "my instructor's hard deck." (Whether I climbed
out or landed isn't importance in the context of "safety," but kinda-sorta
related, I've found every time I've "gotten stuck down low" it takes a solid
30 minutes to dig myself out of the hole, no matter the minimum height agl. I
began tracking that once I began wondering just how costly-in-time it was!)

On the off chance lurkers may be reading and pondering on thoughts expressed
in this thread (and being thoughtful about soaring is almost always a good
thing!), in addition to the (Most Excellent!) links posted by T8 in the "Boy
Who Flew With Condors" thread, I'll offer one; it's dated on the personal
front, but has withstood the test of time on the soaring front.

http://soarboulder.org/index.php?opt...1&I temid=190

Bob W.

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 10:48:59 PM UTC-4, BobW wrote:

Of greater importance - thinks I - than "merely" WHAT a person's opinions are,
is WHY they are. So by all means, share that part, too! Because it's the "why"
bits that tend to drive formation, growth and development of the "what" bits.

snip

Great thread! Two thoughts:
1. First, with regards to "why" vs. "what", with every passing decade we learn more and more about how human brains work, and many of the discoveries reveal that what we have always THOUGHT just ain't so. For example, several studies (no, this isn't an April Fool joke!) have shown that risk-taking behavior is strongly affected by physiology. For example, you're more likely to take the risks of a low save if you happen to prefer spicy foods! (See http://www.nbcnews.com/health/your-l...udy-6C10851877) Maybe the 'chuckleheads' are unfortunately addicted to jalapenos . . . and just can't help it. And you simply can't 'un-teach' an individual's fundamental neurology.

2. Second, on the question of what is a proper 'safe' altitude for the XC pilot, the answer, I believe (based on 50+ years of soaring experience, including 35 as a CFI) is the famous "IT DEPENDS". Over an airport in the pattern? Over unlandable terrain? Over a large, flat, open field? In a 1-26? In an ASG-29? No wind or strong gusty wind? I strongly believe that teaching 'standard' numbers for such situations is a cop-out by instructors who're reverting to the simple teaching of rote (the lowest level of learning).

Jim, good point there. I have also agreed with the concept of teaching situational awareness and decision making over set and fast "numerology". I have found that using numerical guidelines is fine as a starting point in training but once a student has the basics of airmanship it is time to move on. I desire a student to be relatively comfortable without reference to an altimeter or an airspeed indicator.
This is not a popular or at least stated opinion amounst the cfi pools today but its not a radical stance and in fact, its a teaching methodology that prepares pilots for unexpected occurances. If you read any of Derrick Piggots training books you will see the same tact being expressed. Its an emphasis on what I would call "intuative airmanship". Old timers and detractors call it seat pants flying. I consider it essential stick n rudder skills.
Dan

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 5:26:50 AM UTC-6, Jim Kellett wrote:
On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 10:48:59 PM UTC-4, BobW wrote:

Of greater importance - thinks I - than "merely" WHAT a person's opinions are,
is WHY they are. So by all means, share that part, too! Because it's the "why"
bits that tend to drive formation, growth and development of the "what" bits.

snip

Great thread! Two thoughts:
1. First, with regards to "why" vs. "what", with every passing decade we learn more and more about how human brains work, and many of the discoveries reveal that what we have always THOUGHT just ain't so. For example, several studies (no, this isn't an April Fool joke!) have shown that risk-taking behavior is strongly affected by physiology. For example, you're more likely to take the risks of a low save if you happen to prefer spicy foods! (See http://www.nbcnews.com/health/your-l...udy-6C10851877) Maybe the 'chuckleheads' are unfortunately addicted to jalapenos . . . and just can't help it. And you simply can't 'un-teach' an individual's fundamental neurology.

2. Second, on the question of what is a proper 'safe' altitude for the XC pilot, the answer, I believe (based on 50+ years of soaring experience, including 35 as a CFI) is the famous "IT DEPENDS". Over an airport in the pattern? Over unlandable terrain? Over a large, flat, open field? In a 1-26? In an ASG-29? No wind or strong gusty wind? I strongly believe that teaching 'standard' numbers for such situations is a cop-out by instructors who're reverting to the simple teaching of rote (the lowest level of learning)..

What Jim says in 1. Discoveries regarding the brain are still happening. This study, published in June 2015, expands the knowledge of physiology related to the brain and body. Interesting that it was overlooked for so many years. Though the study relates to the physiology, it certainly opens the door to behavioral effects also in the sense of overall well-being, personal vulnerability, and attitude as part of the body's feedback loops.
http://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-r...nervous-system

I like spicy peppers and try and grow them annually. They do trigger physiological effects.

I've made some low saves from 400ft, but only where I've had the option to land, once rounding the turnpoint at the same time and field hopping on the sea breeze (UK) until I climbed out again. I believe I understand the risks. I've also bailed on low save attempts, especially after about 30 minutes where I felt the conditions and expended effort might lead to 'the mistake'. By conditions, I mean heat and undetected change in winds. 30 minutes seems to be my personal limit.

As part of the scoring team, I recall an early GPS trace (1993-1994) from a UK national's pilot thermalling at 250-450 agl for 35 minutes and getting away to complete the task, in an ASH-25. You can see where he did this by looking up Daventry, UK. It was just ESE of Bourough Hill. Plenty of landable fields, if they'd been harvested. IIRC, the contests in both years were held after the harvest was well underway.

Frank Whiteley