For Keith Willshaw...

Denyav wrote in message ...

Firstly part of my deleted text,

There was no Pearl Harbor warning delivered to the US and the last
people to know of one would have been the army intelligence, they
were not watching the IJN.

The diplomatic cables give no warning on any of the Japanese
attacks, only that there was a high probability someone would
be attacked.

Really? Now two quotas from "recent" law the requesting exonoration of Kimmel:

There was no "law" there was effectively a petition. One that was
turned down. Do not worry the fact the moon was in the third house
is also proof of the conspiracy, FDR wearing his green socks the
secret sign and so on.

It is really quite simple, look below and know people are fitting the
evidence after the event. There was no "attack the US" message,
let alone attack a specific location, the 14 part message was not a
declaration of war, and the British and Dutch did not even receive
that message, let alone a declaration of war.

1)"Numerous investigations following the attack on Pearl Harbor have documented
that Adm.Kimmel and Lt.Gen.Short were not provided neccesary and critical
intelligence that was available, that was foretold of war with Japan,that
warned of imminent attack,and that would have alerted them to prepare for the
attack,including such essential communiques as the Pearl Harbor Bomb Plot
message of Sep.24,1941 and the message sent from IJ Foreign ministry to
Japanase Ambassador in US from Dec 6 to 7 1941,known as fourteen part message".

Congratulations on noting that after the event people could fit the pre
attack messages into the proven chain of events.

Now go back and note the key part of the 14 part message was about
having no point in further negotiations, not a declaration of war. The
timing of the note was an important factor, it fitted with first light in the
Midway/Guam area, and early morning in the Philippines.

Note by the way the grid message, the one that wanted the location as
well as the number of ships in harbour, was named bomb plot after the
attack, not before. In any case a bomb plot is the diagram of the fall
of the bombs, an after the attack report.

Simply put the US "knew" it could not immediately go to war to defend
European colonies in Asia. The Japanese military government "knew"
the best time for the US to declare war was at the start of fighting. The
Japanese had to make the decision. There were no resources needed
by the Japanese from the Philippines.

2)"On July 1997 Adm.Richardson USN (Ret) responded to Dorn report with his own
study which confirmed the findings of the Naval Court of Inquiry and and Army
Pearl Harbor Board of Investigations and established ,among other facts,that
the war effert in 1941 was undermined by a restrictive distrubution policy,and
the degree to which the commanders of US forces in Hawai were not alerted
about impending attack was directly attributable to the witholding of
intelligence from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short".

Congratulations in noting the US discovered it had short changed its
field commanders. That is completely separate to the US knowing
when and where attacks would occur, plus there is still the problem of
whether the commanders would do anything. The USN had known
for years the IJN warplan was to await the USN in the eastern
Pacific, not come for the USN.

I see the claims about what investigations did what have been deleted,
like all the other claims, once the documents are produced the claims
have to be deleted.

Deleted text,

"Try again, the Congressional investigation found against Kimmel.
The navy investigation found for him. By the way investigations
are about deciding charges, trials are for defending charges."

1) Roberts Commission, 1941/42 found against Kimmel and Short
2) Hart Inquiry in 1944, mainly evidence collecting
3) Pearl Harbor Army Board in 1944, criticised Short, Marshall and Gerow.
4) Naval Court of Inquiry, exonerated Kimmel.
5) Clausen Investigation, 1944/45, mainly evidence gathering. (He wrote
a book on it and gives Kimmel and Short the highest rankings in the
contributors to the defeat list.)
6) Hewitt Inquiry, 1945, follow on to Naval court, Kimmel denied access,
no report published.
7) Clarke Investigation, 1944/45 investigation into claims of documents
being destroyed, found this not to be the case.
8) Joint Congressional Committee, 1945/46, Hawaiian commanders guilty
of errors of judgement, not dereliction of duty.

In in Nr.4 of this list he was allowed to defend himself,Court exhonorated
him,BUT findings were kept secret.period.

This is quite funny, if the findings were kept secret period how would
anyone know Kimmel had been exonerated?

Deleted text,

"Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen."

On claims the inquiries were rigged,

"I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair."

On using Pearl Harbor the movie as a source,

"I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these
claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the
people the pilots and nurse were based on as well? Found the message
the plot line was based on as well? Double checked the interviews were
with people present, not relatives reporting hearsay 60 years later?

Perhaps the fundamental reality that the US Army intelligence people
did not work on IJN codes will intrude at some stage.

Alternatively Hollywood movies said "

aid to be fiction can be taken as the
truth, so the US has Luke Skywalker hiding somewhere no doubt.
John Wayne won WWII almost single-handed, serving in all branches
of the US military?

"It sums up the "evidence" quite well when a Hollywood entertainment
product is the source of truth."

Dont underestimate Holywood,Its nations premier quasi-governmental PSYOP
organization.

This is good, presumably the "Pearl Harbor" movie talk of code
breaking is therefore psyops and needs to be ignored. Then again
given the movie is the advanced "proof" of code breaking maybe not.

Hollywood promotes US disinformation, except when the claim is
liked, then it is the truth, spoken by a fictional character in a movie
claimed to be fictional is no barrier. Just ignore the actual history.

For more info check out:
"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders.

On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack
of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up.
The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies,
and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money
and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich
at your expense.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

For more info check out:
"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders.

On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack
of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up.
The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies,
and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money
and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich
at your expense.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

I see,"deny everything" and "stick to official version",seem to be only ways to
find the truths.

It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001 or
2004?.

Game is the same but audience is very different now,thats the reason why the
credibility of US today is better than,well,used car salesman .




There was no "law" there was effectively a petition. One that was
turned down. Do not worry the fact the moon was in the third house
is also proof of the conspiracy, FDR wearing his green socks the
secret sign and so on.

I dont know if FDR were wearing green socks but if the President had signed it
before 9/11,it could be understood by some as a radical policy change.

This is quite funny, if the findings were kept secret period how would
anyone know Kimmel had been exonerated?

I dont know what Kimmel said in Court but he said during an interview in 1958:

"My belief is that Gen.Short and I were not given information available in
Washington and were not informed of the impending attack because it was feared
that the action in Hawai might deter Japanese from making the attack.Our
President has repeatedly assured the American people that the US would not
enter the war unless we were attacked .The Japanase attack on the fleet would
put the US in the war with the full support of American Public"


Sounds like he was telling the story of 9/11/2001 in 1958 !.

From: (Denyav)
snip

It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001 or
2004?.



Oh, now I understand. You repeat the same thing many times and it becomes fact.
How stupid of me to not notice sooner.

I didn't realize Lincoln had caused the 30 or 40 years of build up to the
secession and the told The Confederates they should shoot first and Sumter was
a nice target. http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/FinalO...rder_intro.htm

Wow, I think you are right. The Navy blew up their own boat in Havana Harbour
in 1898 because the Spanish wouldn't cooperate and do it for them.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq71-1.htm

I guess this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the Kimmel's interviews were the
truth. [editor's note: this is getting deep] It would never occur to me that
Kimmel was trying to simply improve his image in the history books.

Amazing how the trend you present proves beyond any question Bush talked
Clinton into not collecting Bin Ladin when he had a chance so tha Bush could
have his war. [editor's note: forget saving your shoes, save your watch]

Now, denyev, you have proved your point [editor's note: the shovel broke] when
and where will the next trumped up attack occur?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I didn't realize Lincoln had caused the 30 or 40 years of build up to the
secession and the told The Confederates they should shoot first and Sumter
was
a nice target. http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/FinalO...rder_intro.htm

Read "Truth of war conspiracy of 1861" by Johnstone.
BTW Author of this book based his case solely on official records published by
US War department.

Wow, I think you are right. The Navy blew up their own boat in Havana Harbour
in 1898 because the Spanish wouldn't cooperate and do it for them.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq71-1.htm

So whats your point?
In 1898 new empire was in need of colonies so motto was:
"Evil Spanians destroyed Maine,REMEMBER MAINE,teach evil Spanians a lesson"

Rest is history
(Of course Spanians nothing to do with Maine sinking)

Kimmel was trying to simply improve his image in the history books.

For FDR&Co much more than improving their standing in history books was in
stake.

Now, denyev, you have proved your point [editor's note: the shovel broke]
when
and where will the next trumped up attack occur?

Unfortunately,unlike previous three cases,this time it looks like that
politicians and military failed to capitalize on success of PSYOP at the start.
If whole operation crumles it does not matter if you execute a PSYOP
succesfully or not.Morever if whole operation fails the planners of such PSYOPs
are usually first to go.
Let me clarify this, for example if US had lost Spanish -American war,the
masterminds of Maine incident would be the first ones to go,not Generals or
Admirals who lost actual battles.

BTW I hope some recent high profile resignations helps you to understand what I
mean.

On 13 Jun 2004 03:47:48 GMT, (Denyav) wrote:

I didn't realize Lincoln had caused the 30 or 40 years of build up to the
secession and the told The Confederates they should shoot first and Sumter
was
a nice target. http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/FinalO...rder_intro.htm

Read "Truth of war conspiracy of 1861" by Johnstone.
BTW Author of this book based his case solely on official records published by
US War department.

Care to provide the ISBN? No sign of such a book on Amazon.

Peter Kemp

Care to provide the ISBN? No sign of such a book on Amazon.

Original book by H.W.Johnstone was published in 1921.
I heard they they were going to reprint it,but I don know if its reprinted.
If not, only way to find this book is either to buy an used old one or find it
in a library.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
For more info check out:
"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances
Saunders.

On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack
of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up.
The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies,
and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money
and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich
at your expense.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

I see,"deny everything" and "stick to official version",seem to be only
ways to
find the truths.

It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001
or
2004?.


Again, listing dates does not equal proving conspiracy.

Again, listing dates does not equal proving conspiracy.

If you did not understand 1861,you cannot understand 1941.
If you did not know what happened in 1898,you cannot understand what happened
in 2001.

Its an 150 years old tradition of US government.

In article ,
on 12 Jun 2004 08:11:33 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

For more info check out:
"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders.

On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack
of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up.
The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies,
and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money
and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich
at your expense.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

I see,"deny everything" and "stick to official version",seem to be only ways to
find the truths.

It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001 or
2004?.

Game is the same but audience is very different now,thats the reason why the
credibility of US today is better than,well,used car salesman .




There was no "law" there was effectively a petition. One that was
turned down. Do not worry the fact the moon was in the third house
is also proof of the conspiracy, FDR wearing his green socks the
secret sign and so on.

I dont know if FDR were wearing green socks but if the President had signed it
before 9/11,it could be understood by some as a radical policy change.

Try that again, in English or as close as you can get. It didn't make any
sense at all my friend.


This is quite funny, if the findings were kept secret period how would
anyone know Kimmel had been exonerated?

I dont know what Kimmel said in Court but he said during an interview in 1958:

"My belief is that Gen.Short and I were not given information available in
Washington and were not informed of the impending attack because it was feared
that the action in Hawai might deter Japanese from making the attack.Our
President has repeatedly assured the American people that the US would not
enter the war unless we were attacked .The Japanase attack on the fleet would
put the US in the war with the full support of American Public"

The words of a man that failed in his duty and would not admit it.

Why, when Adm Halsey sailed earlier that week and informed Adm Kimmel that
he intended to shoot down or sink any Japanese ships or aircraft he might
encounter on his way to and from Wake Is.
Did Adm Halsey have intel that his boss did not posses ?
No, Adm Halsey could see the signs, that Adm Kimmel refused to see them and
to head those warnings he recieved only reinforce the Navies decision to
fire him.


Note he uses the word "belief"



Sounds like he was telling the story of 9/11/2001 in 1958 !.

What no Nostradamus quotes ?


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

The words of a man that failed in his duty and would not admit it.

Why, when Adm Halsey sailed earlier that week and informed Adm Kimmel that
he intended to shoot down or sink any Japanese ships or aircraft he might
encounter on his way to and from Wake Is.
Did Adm Halsey have intel that his boss did not posses ?
No, Adm Halsey could see the signs, that Adm Kimmel refused to see them and
to head those warnings he recieved only reinforce the Navies decision to
fire

Read the transcripts of the one of the congressional meetings.(I posted the
link)

According to current knowledge it is without any doubt clear that that
Washington withhold the information they knew from Hawaii.
There is a general agreement here.differences start after this point according
to government or researchers backing gov't view there is no conspiracy here
only honest mistakes,officials did not realize the importance of deciphered
messages.
Thats a big lie officials who made honest mistakes do try to hide the existence
of phone conversation with British PM lust before Pearl Harbor attack.
Truth is not only US had prior knowledge of Pearl Harbor attack but also
British.