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#1
June 15th 04, 05:17 AM
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#2
June 15th 04, 06:18 AM
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I have read them, apparently in greater detail than you have.
Can you answer why Adm. Halsey informed his boss, Adm Kimmel of his intentions on sailing from PH the week prior to 7 December ? Actualy Kimmel sent 46 warships to open sea to the safety in late November without notifying Washington. When White house learned of Kimmels move Washington ordered all ships to return to the base. Battleships and their crews were expendable and their intended role was playing sitting ducks. For much more information please check out: http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/20...no12_facts.htm But what about the Dutch ? Did they know ? Yes.They knew too,check out the above link No, there isn't. The current official position of US gov't is as follows: "Historical records do not establish convincingly that President Roosevelt,Gen.Marshall and others in Washington "deliberately" witheld information from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short as part of a plan or conspitacy to expose Pearl Harbor to attack in order to thrust America into the war". This diplomatic wording says in plain English:Yes information were witheld from them ,but not deliberately. This the limit that ANY government in this world could accept. As you probably know if government,any government,accepts killing of its own sailors and soldiers for political goals,members of any gov't might face firing squad.
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#3
June 16th 04, 12:01 AM
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"Denyav" wrote in message ... The current official position of US gov't is as follows: "Historical records do not establish convincingly that President Roosevelt,Gen.Marshall and others in Washington "deliberately" witheld information from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short as part of a plan or conspitacy to expose Pearl Harbor to attack in order to thrust America into the war". This diplomatic wording says in plain English:Yes information were witheld from them ,but not deliberately. English is your second language, isn't it. Poor Den, still making stuff up.
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#5
June 16th 04, 07:34 AM
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#6
June 14th 04, 07:59 AM
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After my noting the way my text keeps being deleted it seems a
new tactic to obscure has been created, take the time and effort to rearrange the order of the few words of mine left in. After all when someone wants to add words to historical documents, use Hollywood movies as accurate sources there is not much else to do. Denyav wrote in message ... For more info check out: "Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders. On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up. The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies, and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich at your expense. Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email. I see,"deny everything" and "stick to official version",seem to be only ways to find the truths. It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001 or 2004?. Game is the same but audience is very different now,thats the reason why the credibility of US today is better than,well,used car salesman . Ah yes the USA is the source of all evil, but wait a moment, that means there will be a disinformation campaign about this, one of the best ways to hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since that obscures the "real" events. It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic Denyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims. Simple isn't it, remember no proof is absolute proof, truth must pass the "I like it" test and so on. There was no "law" there was effectively a petition. One that was turned down. Do not worry the fact the moon was in the third house is also proof of the conspiracy, FDR wearing his green socks the secret sign and so on. I dont know if FDR were wearing green socks but if the President had signed it before 9/11,it could be understood by some as a radical policy change. http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpqu...el=TOC_545749& Go look up the other items included, the Indianapolis sinking and the waiver on time limits for decorations. And the request was to advance the ranks at which Kimmel and Short were retired at. Real radical policy change stuff. This is quite funny, if the findings were kept secret period how would anyone know Kimmel had been exonerated? The deleted claim was the Naval Board of Inquiry report was never made public. This has to be ignored, since we know the outcome. Deleted text, "Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen." On claims the inquiries were rigged, "I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair." On using Pearl Harbor the movie as a source, "I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the people the pilots and nurse were based on as well? Found the message the plot line was based on as well? Double checked the interviews were with people present, not relatives reporting hearsay 60 years later? Perhaps the fundamental reality that the US Army intelligence people did not work on IJN codes will intrude at some stage." I dont know what Kimmel said in Court but he said during an interview in 1958: Please tell us what court Kimmel was supposed to be in. "My belief is that Gen.Short and I were not given information available in Washington and were not informed of the impending attack because it was feared that the action in Hawai might deter Japanese from making the attack.Our President has repeatedly assured the American people that the US would not enter the war unless we were attacked .The Japanase attack on the fleet would put the US in the war with the full support of American Public" Sounds like he was telling the story of 9/11/2001 in 1958 !. If Kimmel was that psychic, describing 2001, he had no need for warnings, his telepathy should have been enough. By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just before the attack went in. It would be nice to know the source of the claimed Kimmel words, it seems his lifetime's output is being searched for any claim he made, no proof offered. Remarkable line being run, the US is the source of all evil but the US is so good, so amazing, it cannot be defeated, only betrayed from within. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ended up. Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email.
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#7
June 14th 04, 09:17 AM
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Ah yes the USA is the source of all evil, but wait a moment, that means
there will be a disinformation campaign about this, one of the best ways to hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since that obscures the "real" events. US is NOT the sole source of all evil,others tried and still try similar things,for example Reichstag fire,but the difference is that the US was and is worlds #1 in this issue by a big margin. It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic Who hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since that obscures the "real" events. It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic Lets go back,for example,to the year 1898. What was the non "real" event? 1)Sinking of USS Maine 2)Using the event Nr.1 as a batttle cry to get popular support for an empire building war 3)Emerging from Spanish-American war as a major power. enyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims. Actually you dont need to be on anybodys payroll, 99,99 % of information is available to public if you know how to find them. Simple isn't it, remember no proof is absolute proof, truth must pass the "I like it" test and so on. Yeah right,for example if White House destroys phone records there is no proof that such calls were made unless somebody on other side of Atlantic declassifies their own records. But you can still control damage by asserting that they were lost accidentally. And the request was to advance the ranks at which Kimmel and Short were retired at. Real radical policy change stuff. Check out hearing transcripts: Http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm Accusations aimed at the power center of US government not at periphery. The deleted claim was the Naval Board of Inquiry report was never made public. This has to be ignored, since we know the outcome. We know that was the only panel that allowed Kimmel to defend himself,present his own case and evidences. We also know after considering presented evidences Court came to conclusion that Kimmel should be exonorated. But we dont know the actual evidences. We also dont know why Forrestal and King overrode court decision despite the evidence. On using Pearl Harbor the movie as a source, "I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the people the pilots and nurse were Actually the movie completely ignored the role British intelligence which was far more capable than US at that time. Please tell us what court Kimmel was supposed to be in. Kimmel was in the court which he supposed to be in.This court "exhonorated" Kimmel but the decision of Court which Kimmel supposed to be in,was overturned by Forrestal-King duo. If Kimmel was that psychic, describing 2001, he had no need for warnings, his telepathy should have been enough. Kimmel surely was not a physic but US PSYOPs getting more and more like reruns of the same movie. By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to Even tough Manila received warnings that Honolulu never received,MacArthur got defeated and humiliated and lost much more men and equipment than Kimmel and Short. I wonder why nobody demoted him. I wonder
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#8
June 16th 04, 05:23 AM
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Denyav wrote in message ...
Ah yes the USA is the source of all evil, but wait a moment, that means there will be a disinformation campaign about this, one of the best ways to hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since that obscures the "real" events. US is NOT the sole source of all evil,others tried and still try similar things,for example Reichstag fire,but the difference is that the US was and is worlds #1 in this issue by a big margin. To prove this absurd claim the movie Pearl Harbor is cited as proof, the actions of a fictional character in a work of fiction. Nice auto repeat of my words, helps break them up. It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic Who hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since that obscures the "real" events. It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic Lets go back,for example,to the year 1898. What was the non "real" event? 1)Sinking of USS Maine 2)Using the event Nr.1 as a batttle cry to get popular support for an empire building war 3)Emerging from Spanish-American war as a major power. You forgot the fact the US did not emerge from the Spanish American war as a major power in military terms, it lacked the navy. You forgot item 4) the conspiracy theory around the start of the war and the claims the Maine was deliberately sabotaged by the US. The non real event. You see the fact the IJN attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 is known and understood. The added "facts" of a conspiracy are the contributions of people who cannot cope with reality. Go on, fight the everlasting conspiracy, award yourself medals for fighting the terrifying enemy, all in complete safety, since there is nothing to fight, but go on murdering the truth for personal gain. Win the non real event, since no one else is competing. enyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims. Actually you dont need to be on anybodys payroll, 99,99 % of information is available to public if you know how to find them. Yes folks, understand, look for your facts in Hollywood movies, just add the words you want to historical documents and so on. It is quite simple, since unwelcome reality can be wished away just decide the preferred outcome and adjust the preferred facts accordingly. Denyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims. By the way note below the talk is all about the missing evidence, but we are told 99.99% is available. Simple isn't it, remember no proof is absolute proof, truth must pass the "I like it" test and so on. Yeah right,for example if White House destroys phone records there is no proof that such calls were made unless somebody on other side of Atlantic declassifies their own records. But you can still control damage by asserting that they were lost accidentally. Note by the way this seems to have suddenly appeared, and just ignore the various phone company records as well. Both British and American. Deleted text, on the Congressional moves, " http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpqu...el=TOC_545749& Go look up the other items included, the Indianapolis sinking and the waiver on time limits for decorations. " And the request was to advance the ranks at which Kimmel and Short were retired at. Real radical policy change stuff. Check out hearing transcripts: Http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm Accusations aimed at the power center of US government not at periphery. By the way the claim trying to be defended is the idea Kimmel hurled such accusations at FDR etc. Instead we have the family members putting the best case forward as to why Washington deserves some of the blame. The transcript indicates the accusations were the usual ones, the people in Washington made the errors (not the conspiracy) and the people in Pearl paid the price. Note the transcript is not about prior knowledge of the attack, only the blame game afterwards. However when you want to invent fiction just change this to conspiracy accusations. By the way in the above text Professor Gannon claims 1,000 PBY patrol planes were sent to the British pre Pearl Harbor when he calculates Pearl needed 200 for all round patrols but only had 49. The British (meaning RAF, RCAF. RNZAF and RAAF) received somewhere around 3/4 of this figure for the entire war. The US produced a whole 410 Patrol bombers in 1941, up from 34 in 1940, 22 Martin Mariners (PBM), 6 Consolidated Coranados (PB2Y) and 416 Catalinas (PBY) 1940 to 1941. The PBY had been in production pre war, with around 200 delivered by the end of 1939. Of course you need to remove from the totals the 41 patrol bombers delivered in December 1941 and probably the 54 delivered in October and November 1941 as not being available to sent to Hawaii in time. Also noting the pre war deliveries, starting in 1936, were lower powered versions, 1,800 to 2,000 HP versus 2,400 for the 1940 on versions So we have around 600 patrol bombers with the necessary range built and available to the USN and everyone else, less the attrition of normal flying, 200 of which are needed for Pearl Harbor. Presumably then over 200 are needed for the Philippines, then comes the U-boat threat to the US east coast plus Panama then comes the British requirement. The British are useful, they give feedback on actual combat operations. Do not forget aircraft for training operations as well plus the inevitable losses. Kimmel is allowed "lack of resources" but Washington is not. Nice use of logic. So what's that say 600 aircraft, less around 1/2 for obsolete types, for training and attrition, and we have 300 suitable aircraft. Pearl wants 200, the Philippines wants more, the east coast wants some, the British want some, the training system wants more so it can up the training rate and so on. Pearl Harbor was given 49 aircraft, enough to continuously cover an arc of 90 degrees according to Professor Gannon, or the approaches from the Japanese mandated islands. How many were actually flying such searches on the 5th, 6th and 7th? The deleted claim was the Naval Board of Inquiry report was never made public. This has to be ignored, since we know the outcome. We know that was the only panel that allowed Kimmel to defend himself,present his own case and evidences. It was an inquiry not a trial. And I note the change of subject, from the claims made about the inquiry to the procedures it followed. We also know after considering presented evidences Court came to conclusion that Kimmel should be exonorated. The inquiry released its findings in August 1945 according to the supplied URL. But we dont know the actual evidences. Presumably this means you have not bothered to look it up, it was not in the Pearl Harbor movie. We also dont know why Forrestal and King overrode court decision despite the evidence. Gone looking for this evidence? Just jump to conspiracy theory, instead of something like they decided it looked like the Navy was being kind to its own. Deleted text, "Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen." On claims the inquiries were rigged, "I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair." On using Pearl Harbor the movie as a source, "I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the people the pilots and nurse were Actually the movie completely ignored the role British intelligence which was far more capable than US at that time. Ah yes the movie Pearl Harbor is your guide to US intelligence actions in 1941, but wait, there is more, since the movie is a joke on this point the need is to imply the British did it. Just ignore the way the British had more pressing matters on their hands, that the US was leading the way against Japanese diplomatic traffic and the British and US were sharing IJN code recovery work. So what one knew the other did as well. Please tell us what court Kimmel was supposed to be in. Kimmel was in the court which he supposed to be in.This court "exhonorated" Kimmel but the decision of Court which Kimmel supposed to be in,was overturned by Forrestal-King duo. Yes folks, Kimmel was where he should be, no matter where you go, there you are. Note by the way the attempt to paint the inquiry as the absolutely right result, despite claiming not to have seen the evidence presented to it. The USN is the straight organisation, despite the fact it would have been doing the decoding of those wonder messages, it is the one that holds the "truth", everything else is wrong. The conspiracy does not apply to the naval inquiry, it could never have been rigged of course, it has the "right" result, so everything else was rigged. What did the inquiry clear Kimmel of, dereliction of duty, lack of judgement? Standard conspiracy stuff, the right answer is out there, somewhere, pick your preferred outcome. Previously before the next text was another standard claim about conspiracies, as usual the claim has to be deleted and the subject changed. If Kimmel was that psychic, describing 2001, he had no need for warnings, his telepathy should have been enough. Kimmel surely was not a physic but US PSYOPs getting more and more like reruns of the same movie. Translation Denyav is in flashback mode. By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to deleted text, "enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just before the attack went in." Even tough Manila received warnings that Honolulu never received, MacArthur got defeated and humiliated and lost much more men and equipment than Kimmel and Short. I like this, especially since I posted text showing how the War Warning messages were the same around the Pacific. And MacArthur certainly did not lose more men and equipment that the people in Hawaii in the opening day of the war. What I really like is the duck, unable to answer the text, so change the subject. "By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just before the attack went in." I wonder why nobody demoted him. I wonder Try and read history, it provides answers like, 1) too far away to know exactly what was going on, 2) MacArthur controlling much of the information flow, 3) The low expectations about holding the Philippines, 4) The reality moving against MacArthur would provoke a reaction in Washington, being seen as an attempt by FDR to rid himself of an unwanted General. Deleted text, It would be nice to know the source of the claimed Kimmel words, it seems his lifetime's output is being searched for any claim he made, no proof offered. Remarkable line being run, the US is the source of all evil but the US is so good, so amazing, it cannot be defeated, only betrayed from within. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ended up. Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email.
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#9
June 16th 04, 06:26 AM
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To prove this absurd claim the movie Pearl Harbor is cited as
proof, the actions of a fictional character in a work of fiction. Actually the reality is much worse than movie makers could even imagine. Do you know why Kimmels predecessor was relieved of command and replaced by Kimmel? The architect of FDRs Japan &Pearl Harbor game plan was McCollum and McCollum was also,what a surprise !!,head of navy intelligence unit responsible IJN dispatches. Thats the reason why movies mention mostly japanase diplomatic dispatches. You forgot the fact the US did not emerge from the Spanish American war as a major power in military terms, it lacked the navy. It was turning point,with Spanish war USN stopped acting like a littorial navy and started to act like an imperial navy. ope with reality. Go on, fight the everlasting conspiracy, award yourself medals for fighting the terrifying enemy, all in complete safety, since there is nothing to fight, but go on murdering the truth for personal gain. Win the non real event, since no one else is competing. Laws alone cannot deter crooks,if you are not able or willing to catch,prosecute and convict them,no crook will be deterred by the laws written in books. In same token,induviduals who plan vicious acts aganist their own people will not be deterred if the people who planned similar acts in the past could go free or still worse,regarded as Statesmen.
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#10
June 17th 04, 07:39 AM
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Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach.
Denyav wrote in message ... To prove this absurd claim the movie Pearl Harbor is cited as proof, the actions of a fictional character in a work of fiction. Actually the reality is much worse than movie makers could even imagine. Yes folks, the fictional movie is to be supplemented with more fiction. Do you know why Kimmels predecessor was relieved of command and replaced by Kimmel? Disagreement with the boss. The architect of FDRs Japan &Pearl Harbor game plan was McCollum and McCollum was also,what a surprise !!,head of navy intelligence unit responsible IJN dispatches. Thats the reason why movies mention mostly japanase diplomatic dispatches. I just love these sorts of conspiracy theories, they provide endless hours of laughter. It was to be expected Stinnett would make his appearance, his use of the famed McCollum Memo. By the way if you really want to have us believe Stinnett is the authority check out his page 324 of his hardcover edition where he states "There is no reliable evidence, found by the author, that establishes how much of the 5 - Num [JN25] could be deciphered, translated and read by naval cryptographers in 1941". Now go back and read the book where it assumes, his opinion, his assumption, the USN could read the signals Stinnett wants them to have read, including the ones he tries to pretend were sent by radio instead of hand delivered. Stinnett has no idea what the USN could read, he simply gives his opinion. The conspiracy here is one where people are paid for telling other people what they want to hear. The truth is to be ignored, the money does the talking, be poorer for being lied to and then be unwilling to admit the mistake, and so make yourself even poorer. However the really fun thing is the way the fiction in Stinnett is to be enhanced, by promoting McCollum. No longer is he the Far East expert in the Office of Naval Intelligence, no he is promoted to the command of either ONI (Captain or Admiral rank) or the head of OP-20-GYP, the USN organisation charged with breaking Japanese codes, it was originally called OP-20-GY. Also the famed memo never went further than his boss, nowhere near FDR. By the way if the latest attempt at fiction is to somehow pretend the USN decryption section did not do the work on "purple" it shows an even bigger lack of reality. The "purple" work overloaded the section, slowing down all work. The USN had only one section of cryptographers and security cleared language experts. Finally all the IJN documents and survivors agree the force did not transmit after leaving their usual harbours. See for example the surviving logs, the 1942 IJN after action report and the post war interrogations. The idea Yamamoto would be so stupid as to put his strike force in a harbour that could only be contacted by radio is a joke. The Japanese Navy took control over the cable station at Hitokappu Bay. Also, there was a marine cable between Nemuro, Hokkaido and Shana, Etorofu in 1941 which was then tied to the telegraph office at Hitokappu Bay. Source. Recollection of Mr. Hirokazu Kawguchi of Hachioji City in Tokyo who was born at Shana in 1923 and worked at the Shana cable office. Next, there was a daily air courier service between Ominato and Hitokappu Bay to transfer documents received from Tokyo by air and to send documents to Tokyo by air while the 1st Air Fleet was at Hitokappu Bay. Source. “History on Communications” by Admiral Susumiiro Ishiguru (of Strike Force experience) (Tokyo: Tokyo Reserve Police Association 1953). You forgot the fact the US did not emerge from the Spanish American war as a major power in military terms, it lacked the navy. It was turning point,with Spanish war USN stopped acting like a littorial navy and started to act like an imperial navy. By the way folks, the conspiracy claims are dropped, instead we have something totally different dropped in. Deleted text, "You forgot item 4) the conspiracy theory around the start of the war and the claims the Maine was deliberately sabotaged by the US. The non real event. You see the fact the IJN attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 is known and understood. The added "facts" of a conspiracy are the contributions of people who cannot cope with reality. " ope with reality. Go on, fight the everlasting conspiracy, award yourself medals for fighting the terrifying enemy, all in complete safety, since there is nothing to fight, but go on murdering the truth for personal gain. Win the non real event, since no one else is competing. Laws alone cannot deter crooks,if you are not able or willing to catch,prosecute and convict them,no crook will be deterred by the laws written in books. In same token,induviduals who plan vicious acts aganist their own people will not be deterred if the people who planned similar acts in the past could go free or still worse,regarded as Statesmen. Translation do not deal with the issues on their merits, invent crimes from years ago and use those as an excuse to do what you want to do, above all do not think. I note the fun things like the URL for the congressional petition transcript makes note of the Japanese consulate's words about a surprise attack being possible, a message not broken out before the attack, to accuse Washington of short changing the field commanders. If the assessment is a surprise attack was possible what does that say of two things, 1) the size of the defences 2) the alertness of the defences. 1) Is largely Washington determined, 2) is locally determined. But do not worry, erase item 2 and carry on with the field commanders did nothing wrong line. The rest is simply text that could not be replied to, Yes folks, understand, look for your facts in Hollywood movies, just add the words you want to historical documents and so on. It is quite simple, since unwelcome reality can be wished away just decide the preferred outcome and adjust the preferred facts accordingly. Denyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims. By the way note below the talk is all about the missing evidence, but we are told 99.99% is available. Deleted text, on the Congressional moves, " http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpqu...el=TOC_545749& Go look up the other items included, the Indianapolis sinking and the waiver on time limits for decorations. " http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm By the way the claim trying to be defended is the idea Kimmel hurled such accusations at FDR etc. Instead we have the family members putting the best case forward as to why Washington deserves some of the blame. The transcript indicates the accusations were the usual ones, the people in Washington made the errors (not the conspiracy) and the people in Pearl paid the price. Note the transcript is not about prior knowledge of the attack, only the blame game afterwards. However when you want to invent fiction just change this to conspiracy accusations. By the way in the above text Professor Gannon claims 1,000 PBY patrol planes were sent to the British pre Pearl Harbor when he calculates Pearl needed 200 for all round patrols but only had 49. The British (meaning RAF, RCAF. RNZAF and RAAF) received somewhere around 3/4 of this figure for the entire war. The US produced a whole 410 Patrol bombers in 1941, up from 34 in 1940, 22 Martin Mariners (PBM), 6 Consolidated Coranados (PB2Y) and 416 Catalinas (PBY) 1940 to 1941. The PBY had been in production pre war, with around 200 delivered by the end of 1939. Of course you need to remove from the totals the 41 patrol bombers delivered in December 1941 and probably the 54 delivered in October and November 1941 as not being available to sent to Hawaii in time. Also noting the pre war deliveries, starting in 1936, were lower powered versions, 1,800 to 2,000 HP versus 2,400 for the 1940 on versions So we have around 600 patrol bombers with the necessary range built and available to the USN and everyone else, less the attrition of normal flying, 200 of which are needed for Pearl Harbor. Presumably then over 200 are needed for the Philippines, then comes the U-boat threat to the US east coast plus Panama then comes the British requirement. The British are useful, they give feedback on actual combat operations. Do not forget aircraft for training operations as well plus the inevitable losses. Kimmel is allowed "lack of resources" but Washington is not. Nice use of logic. So what's that say 600 aircraft, less around 1/2 for obsolete types, for training and attrition, and we have 300 suitable aircraft. Pearl wants 200, the Philippines wants more, the east coast wants some, the British want some, the training system wants more so it can up the training rate and so on. Pearl Harbor was given 49 aircraft, enough to continuously cover an arc of 90 degrees according to Professor Gannon, or the approaches from the Japanese mandated islands. How many were actually flying such searches on the 5th, 6th and 7th? Gone looking for this evidence? Just jump to conspiracy theory, instead of something like they decided it looked like the Navy was being kind to its own. Deleted text, "Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen." On claims the inquiries were rigged, "I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair." Ah yes the movie Pearl Harbor is your guide to US intelligence actions in 1941, but wait, there is more, since the movie is a joke on this point the need is to imply the British did it. Just ignore the way the British had more pressing matters on their hands, that the US was leading the way against Japanese diplomatic traffic and the British and US were sharing IJN code recovery work. So what one knew the other did as well. Yes folks, Kimmel was where he should be, no matter where you go, there you are. Note by the way the attempt to paint the inquiry as the absolutely right result, despite claiming not to have seen the evidence presented to it. The USN is the straight organisation, despite the fact it would have been doing the decoding of those wonder messages, it is the one that holds the "truth", everything else is wrong. The conspiracy does not apply to the naval inquiry, it could never have been rigged of course, it has the "right" result, so everything else was rigged. What did the inquiry clear Kimmel of, dereliction of duty, lack of judgement? Standard conspiracy stuff, the right answer is out there, somewhere, pick your preferred outcome. Previously before the next text was another standard claim about conspiracies, as usual the claim has to be deleted and the subject changed. I like this, especially since I posted text showing how the War Warning messages were the same around the Pacific. And MacArthur certainly did not lose more men and equipment that the people in Hawaii in the opening day of the war. What I really like is the duck, unable to answer the text, so change the subject. "By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just before the attack went in." Try and read history, it provides answers like, 1) too far away to know exactly what was going on, 2) MacArthur controlling much of the information flow, 3) The low expectations about holding the Philippines, 4) The reality moving against MacArthur would provoke a reaction in Washington, being seen as an attempt by FDR to rid himself of an unwanted General. Deleted text, It would be nice to know the source of the claimed Kimmel words, it seems his lifetime's output is being searched for any claim he made, no proof offered. Remarkable line being run, the US is the source of all evil but the US is so good, so amazing, it cannot be defeated, only betrayed from within. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ended up. Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email.
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