For Keith Willshaw...

..

I just love these sorts of conspiracy theories, they provide endless hours
of laughter. It was to be expected Stinnett would make his appearance,
his use of the famed McCollum Memo.

By the way if you really want to have us believe Stinnett is the
authority check out his page 324 of his hardcover edition
where he states "There is no reliable evidence, found by the
author, that establishes how much of the 5 - Num [JN25]
could be deciphered, translated and read by naval cryptographers
in 1941". Now go back and read the book where it assumes,
his opinion, his assumption, the USN could read the signals
Stinnett wants them to have read, including the ones he tries
to pretend were sent by radio instead of hand delivered.
Stinnett has no idea what the USN could read, he simply gives
his opinion.

Stinnett is the man who discovered that truthful answers to Pearl
Harbor controversy secreted in bomb proof vaults,withheld from two
congressional investigations and from American People.
As Late as 1995 the Joint Congressional investigation conducted by
Sen.Thurman and and Rep.Franke was denied access to the Naval storage
vault in Crane, IN
Because of his efforts Naval Security Group Command agreed to transfer
Crane files to National Archieves.
"The Days of Deceipt" is based on what he found in first batch of
released documents.
After the days of deceipt appeared a strange thing happened,NSA
immediately started withdrawing pre Pearl Harbor documents from
Archive II.
As of today almost 30 NSA withdrawal notices guarantee that pre Pearl
Harbor documents discovered in Crane IN will be off limits to American
People and their elected represantatives for another 60 years
Your above mentioned quote from the book refers to percentage of
deciphered japanase messages it might be 30% or might be 100%.
As I said before the book was based on documents found in first batch
of Crane documents released in middle of 90s,and information revealed
in documents astonishing,but crane documents reviewed by Stinnett was
only a minuscule percentage of crane documents,by far not enough to
say something definite about the percentage of Japanase messages
deciphered and translated by US.

The conspiracy here is one where people are paid for telling other
people what they want to hear. The truth is to be ignored, the money
does the talking, be poorer for being lied to and then be unwilling to
admit the mistake, and so make yourself even poorer.

Official Version here is the one where the officials are paid for
telling the public what their bosses want.This is one important
difference.
Another important difference between offical story tellers and
conspiracy loons is the following:Offical story tellers have
priviledge to distort or completely withhold information whereas
conspiracy loons cannot even dream of having such priviledges.

However the really fun thing is the way the fiction in Stinnett is to
be enhanced, by promoting McCollum. No longer is he the Far East
expert in the Office of Naval Intelligence, no he is promoted to the
command of either ONI (Captain or Admiral rank) or the head of
OP-20-GYP, the USN organisation charged with breaking Japanese
codes, it was originally called OP-20-GY.

Also the famed memo never went further than his boss, nowhere
near FDR.
The Famed Memo did not need to go anywhere,it became offical Japan
policy of FDR administration.

By the way if the latest attempt at fiction is to somehow pretend
the USN decryption section did not do the work on "purple" it shows
an even bigger lack of reality. The "purple" work overloaded the
section, slowing down all work. The USN had only one section of
cryptographers and security cleared language experts.

Finally all the IJN documents and survivors agree the force did not
transmit after leaving their usual harbours. See for example the
surviving logs, the 1942 IJN after action report and the post war
interrogations. The idea Yamamoto would be so stupid as to
put his strike force in a harbour that could only be contacted by
radio is a joke.

The Japanese Navy took control over the cable station at Hitokappu
Bay. Also, there was a marine cable between Nemuro, Hokkaido
and Shana, Etorofu in 1941 which was then tied to the telegraph
office at Hitokappu Bay. Source. Recollection of Mr. Hirokazu
Kawguchi of Hachioji City in Tokyo who was born at Shana in
1923 and worked at the Shana cable office.

Next, there was a daily air courier service between Ominato and
Hitokappu Bay to transfer documents received from Tokyo by air
and to send documents to Tokyo by air while the 1st Air Fleet was
at Hitokappu Bay. Source. ?History on Communications? by
Admiral Susumiiro Ishiguru (of Strike Force experience) (Tokyo:
Tokyo Reserve Police Association 1953).


Who told Yamamato that their Naval code was broken?
Even today you can intercept any radio transmission easily,but if you
cannot decode and decipher it,its useless.
Even after Pearl Harbor IJN continued to use the same code because
they were not aware that it was broken.
Radio messages sent with unbroken or unbreakable code is as safe as
courier messages,if not more.

"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message
...


By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to
enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in.

What the conspiroloons can never manage to explain is why the attack was
allowed to happen, the USA could have put up a heavy CAP, manned all AA guns
and have already flown off a major counterstrike and still would have been
at war as the attack came in, the only difference would have been in the
phrasing of the announcement and the fact that the US military would have
come out of it looking good.

A simple, "this morning at aprox 0600hrs the Japanese navy attacked Pearl
Harbour without warning, this infamous attack was defeated by the courageous
actions of our Army and Navy, the United States is now at war" would have
done nicely.

What the conspiroloons can never manage to explain is why the attack was
allowed to happen, the USA could have put up a heavy CAP, manned all AA guns
and have already flown off a major counterstrike and still would have been
at war as the attack came in, the only difference would have been in the
phrasing of the announcement and the fact that the US military would have
come out of it looking good.

Such an activity would deter Japanese from making the attack.
The goal of FDR (and Churchill) was not to deter attack but lure Japan to
attack US so that the domestic opposition to US participation could be
overcome.
Thats the reason why Washington gradually reduced the information sent to
Honolulu beginning from July 1941.
In other words Washington had a political goal and blindfolded Honolulu to
achieve this goal.

A simple, "this morning at aprox 0600hrs the Japanese navy attacked Pearl
Harbour without warning, this infamous attack was defeated by the courageous
actions of our Army and Navy, the United States is now at war" would have
done nicely.

It could easily be done,but it would not help FDR and Churchill as much as
shock and awe created by Japanese "surprise" attack.
Go to Http://www.ukan.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm
and read the testimony of Capt.Beach.

In Plain English he says basically:
"The goal justifies the methods used to achive the goal"

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
What the conspiroloons can never manage to explain is why the attack was
allowed to happen, the USA could have put up a heavy CAP, manned all AA
guns
and have already flown off a major counterstrike and still would have
been
at war as the attack came in, the only difference would have been in the
phrasing of the announcement and the fact that the US military would have
come out of it looking good.

Such an activity would deter Japanese from making the attack.

How?

You say the US knew and where when the attack was due, all they needed to do
was prep the a/c the night before and launch 30 mins before the attack, plus
wake the sailors up early and have them man the AA guns.

Reality is not your friend, is it?

The goal of FDR (and Churchill) was not to deter attack but lure Japan to
attack US so that the domestic opposition to US participation could be
overcome.

You haven't addressed why they couldn't defeat the attack yet, also you
havent explained how getting into a different war with Japan helps the USA
get into a war against Germany (or was Hitler in on the big plan too?).

Thats the reason why Washington gradually reduced the information sent to
Honolulu beginning from July 1941.
In other words Washington had a political goal and blindfolded Honolulu to
achieve this goal.

By sending a war warning?


A simple, "this morning at aprox 0600hrs the Japanese navy attacked Pearl
Harbour without warning, this infamous attack was defeated by the
courageous
actions of our Army and Navy, the United States is now at war" would have
done nicely.

It could easily be done,but it would not help FDR and Churchill as much as
shock and awe created by Japanese "surprise" attack.


So being IN a war by defeating a surprise attack helps your objective of
being IN a war less than being IN a war by not defeating a surprise attack
how?

Go to Http://www.ukan.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm
and read the testimony of Capt.Beach.

In Plain English he says basically:
"The goal justifies the methods used to achive the goal"

Again you feel the need to invent what people are saying.

You really should seek medical help.

You say the US knew and where when the attack was due, all they needed to do
was prep the a/c the night before and launch 30 mins before the attack, plus
wake the sailors up early and have them man the AA guns.

First of all FDR or US did not want to deter japanase or save US ships in
Harbor,what FDR wanted was a spectacular event to schock and awe the Nation.
The first warning of Pearl Harbor attack did not came before hours,days or
weeks before the attack,it came almost one year before attack.
1)On January 27,1941 US Ambassador to Japan ,Joseph Grew sent following message
to Washington:
"Peruvian minister has informed one my staff that he has heard from many
sources,including a Japanase source,that in the event of trouble breaking out
between US and Japan,the Japanase intended to make a surprise attack aganist
Pearl Harbor with all their strength"

Again the date of above message is Jan,27,1941.

2)Later Congressman M.Dies wrote the following:
"Early in 1941 the Dies committee came into possesion of a strategic map which
gave clear proof of intentions of the japanese to make an assault on Pearl
Harbor.The strategic map was prepared by the Japanase Imperial Intelligence
dept.
As soon as I received rhe document I telephoned Secretary of State Cordell Hull
and told him what I had.Secretary Hull directed me not to let anyone know about
map and stated that he would call me as soon as he talked to President
Roosevelt.In about an hour he telephoned to say that he had talked to Roosevelt
and they agreed that it would be very serious if any information concerning
this map reached the news services.I told him it was a grave responsibility to
withold such vital information from the public.TheSecretary assured me the he
and Roosevelt considered essential to national defense"

3)Dusko Popov was a British double agent.
In the summer of 1941 Nazis ordered him to Hawai to make a detailed study of PH
naval base and its nearby airfields.
He deduced that his mission betokened a surprise attack by japanase.In Aug.1941
he reported this to FBI in New York.
Later Hoover bitterly recalled that he had provided Popovs warning abour Pearl
Harbor to FDR but that Roosevelt told him not to pass the information any
further and to just leave in in his ,Presidents,hands"

4)Kilso Haan received definite information from Korean underground that the
Japanese were planning to attack Hawai "before Christmas".Haan contacted Iowa
Senator Gillette and convinced him that information had merit.
Sen.Gillette briefed FDR , but FDR said only"it would be looked into"
5)The Dutch Army in Java on Dec.4 decoded a dispatch from Tokyo to Japan
Embassy in Bangkok, forecasting attack on four locations including Hawai.The
Dutch passed information to US Brig.Gen Thorpe.Thorpe sent total 4 urgent
warning messages to Washington,to last one directly to the desk of Marshalls
intel chief.Washington in return ordered Thorpe not send warning messages
anymore.
Col.Weiijerman,Dutch military attache in Washington,also delivered warning
message to Marshalls staff in person.
6)On Nov,29 Cordell Hull met with the journalist J.Leib and handed him some
japanese intercepts about Pearl Harbor and told him that Japanase were planning
the base and that FDR planned to let it happen.
Leib promised to keep Hulls name out of story and contacted UP Washington chief
Wilson and told him the details without giving the name of his source.
Wilson found story ludicrious and refused to run it but Leib managed to get and
urgent version onto UPs foreign service.


Reality is not your friend, is it?

Is reality your friend?

You haven't addressed why they couldn't defeat the attack yet, also you
havent explained how getting into a different war with Japan helps the USA
get into a war against Germany (or was Hitler in on the big plan too?).


Washington was not interested in defeating attack,much less preventing it.

By sending a war warning?

War warning ?,you make me laugh,unfortunately Kimmel was not under Dutch
command.

Again you feel the need to invent what people are saying.

You really should seek medical help.

I think the people who made Maine Incident (unfortunately too late),Pearl
Harbor (again unfortunately too late) and 9/11 should seek,no not medical
help,but legal help.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
You say the US knew and where when the attack was due, all they needed to
do
was prep the a/c the night before and launch 30 mins before the attack,
plus
wake the sailors up early and have them man the AA guns.

First of all FDR or US did not want to deter japanase or save US ships in
Harbor,what FDR wanted was a spectacular event to schock and awe the
Nation.

No, you just believe that. do try to distinguish between fact and your
opinion.

A spectacular event that would shock the nation = a surprise attack - it
never had to succeed.

The first warning of Pearl Harbor attack did not came before hours,days or
weeks before the attack,it came almost one year before attack.
1)On January 27,1941 US Ambassador to Japan ,Joseph Grew sent following
message
to Washington:
"Peruvian minister has informed one my staff that he has heard from many
sources,including a Japanase source,that in the event of trouble breaking
out
between US and Japan,the Japanase intended to make a surprise attack
aganist
Pearl Harbor with all their strength"

So the US govt should believe the utterances of EVERY single foreign
diplomat in the world?

And act on them? should the US have gone to war on 2nd hand information
from a PERUVIAN minister?



Again the date of above message is Jan,27,1941.


As above.

2)Later Congressman M.Dies wrote the following:
"Early in 1941 the Dies committee came into possesion of a strategic map
which
gave clear proof of intentions of the japanese to make an assault on Pearl
Harbor.The strategic map was prepared by the Japanase Imperial
Intelligence
dept.
As soon as I received rhe document I telephoned Secretary of State Cordell
Hull
and told him what I had.Secretary Hull directed me not to let anyone know
about
map and stated that he would call me as soon as he talked to President
Roosevelt.In about an hour he telephoned to say that he had talked to
Roosevelt
and they agreed that it would be very serious if any information
concerning
this map reached the news services.I told him it was a grave
responsibility to
withold such vital information from the public.TheSecretary assured me the
he
and Roosevelt considered essential to national defense"


and M Dies agenda was?


3)Dusko Popov was a British double agent.
In the summer of 1941 Nazis ordered him to Hawai to make a detailed study
of PH
naval base and its nearby airfields.
He deduced that his mission betokened a surprise attack by japanase.In
Aug.1941
he reported this to FBI in New York.
Later Hoover bitterly recalled that he had provided Popovs warning abour
Pearl
Harbor to FDR but that Roosevelt told him not to pass the information any
further and to just leave in in his ,Presidents,hands"


He may well have deduced that, but since the Germans didn't know about any
attack on Pearl Harbour until after the event and the Brits were reading
German codes, it seems likely that it was ignored as trivial.


4)Kilso Haan received definite information from Korean underground that
the
Japanese were planning to attack Hawai "before Christmas".Haan contacted
Iowa
Senator Gillette and convinced him that information had merit.
Sen.Gillette briefed FDR , but FDR said only"it would be looked into"

You don't think that the "Korean underground" had reasons to be making stuff
up that might draw the USA into a war with the Japanese?


5)The Dutch Army in Java on Dec.4 decoded a dispatch from Tokyo to Japan
Embassy in Bangkok, forecasting attack on four locations including
Hawai.The
Dutch passed information to US Brig.Gen Thorpe.Thorpe sent total 4 urgent
warning messages to Washington,to last one directly to the desk of
Marshalls
intel chief.Washington in return ordered Thorpe not send warning messages
anymore.

Interesting, given that the Japanese didn't transmit that information. ever.


Col.Weiijerman,Dutch military attache in Washington,also delivered warning
message to Marshalls staff in person.

Interesting, given that the Japanese didn't transmit that information. ever.

6)On Nov,29 Cordell Hull met with the journalist J.Leib and handed him
some
japanese intercepts about Pearl Harbor and told him that Japanase were
planning
the base and that FDR planned to let it happen.
Leib promised to keep Hulls name out of story and contacted UP Washington
chief
Wilson and told him the details without giving the name of his source.
Wilson found story ludicrious and refused to run it but Leib managed to
get and
urgent version onto UPs foreign service.


Mr. Joe Lieb's claim that Secretary of State Hull told him of the coming
attack and named Pearl Harbor as the target. The trouble here is that Mr.
Lieb and Mr. Hull were the only ones present at their alleged conversation,
and Mr. Lieb did not see fit to tell anyone of this conversation until after
Mr. Hull died. Thus there is no way independently to verify his claim.



Reality is not your friend, is it?

Is reality your friend?

Yes, why do you make this **** up?


You haven't addressed why they couldn't defeat the attack yet, also you
havent explained how getting into a different war with Japan helps the
USA
get into a war against Germany (or was Hitler in on the big plan too?).


Washington was not interested in defeating attack,much less preventing it.

Clashes with reality, the US didn't have to lose to be in the war, just get
attacked.


By sending a war warning?

War warning ?,you make me laugh,unfortunately Kimmel was not under Dutch
command.

A final war warning issued to all commanders in the army and navy on
November 27 was not heeded because Pearl Harbor was not mentioned as a
possible target.

Kimmel was so incompetent that he didn't heed the warning and then spent the
rest of his life trying to gloss over that simple fact..


Again you feel the need to invent what people are saying.

You really should seek medical help.

I think the people who made Maine Incident (unfortunately too late),Pearl
Harbor (again unfortunately too late) and 9/11 should seek,no not medical
help,but legal help.

No, you are simply insane.

"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ...
After my noting the way my text keeps being deleted it seems a
new tactic to obscure has been created, take the time and effort
to rearrange the order of the few words of mine left in.


Well, I do not remember any of your texts about the utmostly most
important detail of whole Pearl Harbor story,namely introduction of
JN25B code,being deleted.
Because you always avoided this issue and did not write anything about
that.
Let me repeat again,when Japanese introduced JN25B in Dec.1940,they
continued to use old random code books for another two months.
This was the one of the biggest ever intel blunders in the history and
you have missed it.Strange,to say at least.

As I posted before,JN25 was a 19th century system,very identical to
the system used by US forces between 1898-1917 and reason why US
phased out this system was very simple;it was insecure.

So.Japanese military dispatches were,as Churchill pointed out,not
secrets for US(also for Brits and Dutch)

I guess you could not find time to post anything about that

As usual most of my words are deleted, new tactic time though, simply
lie about what has been written. Denyav has decided to go back to
a message I wrote on June 14, bypassing the JN-25 information I
posted more recently. I await with interest his retrieval of information
I sent in say 1990 as another desperate tactic to avoid actually answering.

denyav wrote in message ...
"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ...
After my noting the way my text keeps being deleted it seems a
new tactic to obscure has been created, take the time and effort
to rearrange the order of the few words of mine left in.

Well, I do not remember any of your texts about the utmostly most
important detail of whole Pearl Harbor story,namely introduction of
JN25B code,being deleted.

Yes folks, if Denyav can forget about him deleting the text he can
simply pretend it did not happen. He started off passing Pearl
Harbor the movie as a source of facts and now finds the real
facts are coming out, so rewind to those simpler movie days.

Because you always avoided this issue and did not write anything about
that.

Translation Denyav will make a great effort to delete anything that
contradicts his preferred fiction. He will simply ignore what I wrote.

Let me repeat again,when Japanese introduced JN25B in Dec.1940,they
continued to use old random code books for another two months.
This was the one of the biggest ever intel blunders in the history and
you have missed it.Strange,to say at least.

Translation Denyav has replied to the message where I pointed out
what this meant and has now decided to lie about it rather than cope
with replying.

I expect him to heroically delete my reply and the heroically repeat he
is repeating his same junk. Two heroic acts means another self
awarded medal.

As I posted before,JN25 was a 19th century system,very identical to
the system used by US forces between 1898-1917 and reason why US
phased out this system was very simple;it was insecure.

Translation no proof brought forward, just a wishful thinking.

So.Japanese military dispatches were,as Churchill pointed out,not
secrets for US(also for Brits and Dutch)

Churchill pointed out all the messages they intercepted and decoded
were made public just after the war.

I guess you could not find time to post anything about that

Translation Denyav deletes things he does not like. The fun thing
is anyone can go and check on my posts, that is why I leave the
text in. It helps show up the lies.

The rest is cut and paste from my last post, on June 22,

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.

Simple really, just keep dropping all the claimed evidence, but keep the
conclusion.

Most of my stuff is cut and paste, you become interested in WWII and
you find the same conspiracy claims surfacing over and over.

The fact the posts have to be deleted is the best proof they are
accurate. Also the fleeing forward to new claims, not defending
the old junk. It seems we are going to be treated to the tour of the
various conspiracy claims, which goes to prove what Denyav is
when he can quote a character in the Paral Harbor movie as a
source but also supply all the other conspiracy claims.

Since there are no sources for the following information can we assume
the nurse character in Pearl Harbor the movie is the source?

Presumably the British reporting the codes were hard to break is
also irrelevant?

1)They are not hard to break,they are actually 19th Century type codes that
somehow apperared in 20th century.

Note by the way there is no source for this claim, note the fact the
1930's are not that far into the 20th century. Radio and telegraph
communications forced the development of coding systems.

The code groups were disguised with random numbers, it forced
the US into using machines to break the code, to try and discover
the random numbers by comparing hundreds of messages. The
code breakers indicated this was a hard thing to do.

2)A very identical coding system was introduced in US in 1898 for
Navy and Army and and abondoned in 1917 because it was insecure.

So why didn't the US simply drag out the US code books and use
them? Perhaps because the systems were different? Please
describe the US systems, how they worked.

3)It has dictionary of 33,333 words and phrases each given as a five figure
number and these were added to random numbers contained in a 2nd code
book

Not quite, there were 33,333 valid code groups, in both the A and B
versions some were left blank for future expansion. In the B version
around 2/3 of the groups had a second meaning, giving around 55,000
valid meanings.

Random numbers were added to the code groups before transmission.

4)The dictionary was changed only once before Pearl Harbor on Dec 1,1940.
But random book was changed in every 3 to 6 months.

You forgot to mention the B version contained additional tables for
locations, date/time and positions, a super encypherment. These
tables were not broken out until mid 1942.

5)The Japanase blundered away the Code when they introduced
JN25B by continuing to use the random table books that have been
solved by the allies,for two more months.That was the equivalent of
reconstructing the exposed dictionary.US recovered the whole thing
immediately.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

As of Autumn 1940 the US had around 1,000 JN-25A code groups
it thought it knew the meanings for, work continued on the A version
until around March 1941, on 1 April 1941 there were 1,800 A
version groups "recovered", versus 300 B version groups. It should
be noted recoveries were not a linear process, new discoveries
could and did prove previously assigned meanings were wrong.

So if you know JB25B inroduction date,you also know when allies
cracked the code basically.

My cat has 4 legs and a tail my dog has 4 legs and a tail therefore
my dog is a cat. Simple sort of logic.

Put it to you thins way, you are given 30,000 5 digit random numbers,
which have 55,000 meanings. Solve instantly. Now solve when you
have less than 1/2 of the random numbers used to disguise the code
group values.

Now go work on this, if you know 10% of the random numbers and
10% of the code groups then, assuming randomness, around 1%
of the messages will contain code groups you know hidden by
random numbers you know.

To crack the code you needed to know the random numbers
and the code group values.

Just for the record,in 1994 NSA published that JN25B code was completely
cracked in December 1940.
They knew that many knew that and they finally admitted.

Yes folks this is the fun part of the lies.

“Early (Northern) Fall” 1940 the US code breakers realised the system
for numbers in JN-25A was the same as an old code the US has the
code book for, the code group was the number itself multiplied
by a constant. In a single day of checking the high frequency code
groups the code groups for the numbers 0 to 999 fell out, 1/30 of
the total code. Since all code these group values were divisible by
three it confirmed the tentative code group values previously
assigned were correct and told the code breakers valid code group
values were divisible by three.

After this discovery the task of further recoveries and exploiting
traffic was largely shifted to Corregidor, which for a time in 1940/41
was the largest USN code breaking unit, having completely absorbed
the Shanghai unit in December 1940. (SRH-179
notes that the personnel from Shanghai were transferred to Corregidor
in phases from August 1940 to December 1940. The last group of ten
men from Shanghai reported to Corregidor on 16 December 1940. Just
before that time the intercept and decryption efforts at Shanghai were
shut down.)

In effect Washington declared JN-25A “completely solved” and
“completely broken”, that is the system was understood and the
remaining work was in recovering and assigning meanings to code
groups, then exploiting the results. The result was most work was
directed at the earlier, now superseded versions, to try and recover
the underlying code groups, since there were many more messages
in those versions, the keys of the latest text additive book were also
targeted as intercepts built up. No attempt was made to read current
traffic.

See the different definitions being used? The USN used the definition
that it understood how the code system worked, it had cracked the
logic but it only had 1/30 of the code groups. The usual conspiracy
situation is to try and convince people what is being meant is 100%
recovery of code groups and random numbers.

6)In January 1941,US gave Britain two JN25B note books with keys

Ah yes, the US and UK combining recoveries is simply turned into
they had the entire code and additive books.

So here we go with another basic lie. One of the problems to sort out
in early 1941 was when the US and UK had different values for valid
random numbers and meanings for valid code groups.

7)Whole Pearl Harbor schema was based on this code.

You mean Yamamoto's letters to his staff were sent in JN-25B?
The couriered messages were in JN-25B?

This is really funny.

8)Between Sep1 and Pearl Harbor attack US intercepted total 26581
(acc.to NSA) JN25N coded messages.

Yes folks, apparently these messages were all about Pearl Harbor.

Deleted text,

"None of the messages found in the "Pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese Naval
Dispatches" file mention Pearl Harbor by name. (This file is found in
National Archives at College Park, RG 38, Crane Files, CNSG 5830/115; most
of the messages have also have been reprinted in "Pearl Harbor Revisited:
United States Navy Communications Intelligence, 1924-1941," an unclassified
monograph published by the National Security Agency in 1994.)"

The USN went back in 1945/46 and broke out as many of the pre war
messages as it could to see what they could have told. One of the
favourite tricks is to claim the 1946 dates are faked.

9)Churchill wrote "from the end of 1940 Americans had pierced vital
Japanase ciphers and were decoding large numbers of Japanase
MILITARY and diplomatic messages" GRAND ALLIANCE page 598

A more full version of the quote is,

"From the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the
vital Japanese ciphers, and were decoding large
numbers of their military and diplomatic telegrams. In
the secret American circles these were referred to as
'Magics'. The 'Magics' were repeated to us, but there
was an inevitable delay - sometimes of two or three
days - before we got them. We did not know therefore
at any given moment all that the President or Mr. Hull
knew. I make no complaint of this."

This is a favourite quote of the conspiracy crowd, it is supposed
to be Churchill confessing the code breakings they want. Apparently
putting the boot into the recently deceased FDR and also himself.

The quote is above is on page 532 of the edition I have access to,
on page 535 comes the quote,

"A prodigious Congressional Inquiry published its findings in
1946 in which every detail was exposed of the events leading
up to the war between the United States and Japan and of
the failure to send positive "alert" orders through the military
departments to their fleets and garrisons in exposed situations.
Every detail, including the decoding of secret Japanese
telegrams and their actual texts, has been displayed to the
world in forty volumes. The strength of the United States was
sufficient to enable them to sustain this hard ordeal required
by the spirit of the American Constitution."

Simple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.

And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it.

Hard to break JN25B code is an urban legend created in Washington
D.C.to cover treason.

Translation telling lies about JN-25 is an attempt to cover someone's
inability to cope with reality.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

apanese introduced JN25B in Dec.1940,they
continued to use old random code books for another two months.
This was the one of the biggest ever intel blunders in the history and
you have missed it.Strange,to say at least.

Translation Denyav has replied to the message where I pointed out
what this meant and has now decided to lie about it rather than cope
with replying.

Again you are dodging questions about the most important blunder of Japanese in
WWII,by filling your posts with senseless crap.

Did Japanase continue to use old random JN25 code books for another two months
after introduction of "improved" JN25B version ?

As I posted before,JN25 was a 19th century system,very identical to
the system used by US forces between 1898-1917 and reason why US
phased out this system was very simple;it was insecure.

Translation no proof brought forward, just a wishful thinking.

Strange,You seem to know eveything about US ,but seemingly nothing about a
system which is used by US for twenty years.
BTW methods for cracking JN-25 or its father US system were published in
various journals world wide in 1931.

Churchill pointed out all the messages they intercepted and decoded
were made public just after the wa

If you cannot dodge a question unfortunately you resort to lies.
Check out Grand Alliance,page 598.

"From the end of 1940,the Americans pierced the vital Japanase ciphers,and were
decoding large numbers of their MILITARY and diplomatic messages"

W.Churchill

A hint for you:When Japanase introduced JN25B ?

deleted text,

"As usual most of my words are deleted, new tactic time though, simply
lie about what has been written. Denyav has decided to go back to
a message I wrote on June 14, bypassing the JN-25 information I
posted more recently. I await with interest his retrieval of information
I sent in say 1990 as another desperate tactic to avoid actually answering.

Yes folks, if Denyav can forget about him deleting the text he can
simply pretend it did not happen. He started off passing Pearl
Harbor the movie as a source of facts and now finds the real
facts are coming out, so rewind to those simpler movie days."

Denyav wrote in message ...
apanese introduced JN25B in Dec.1940,they
continued to use old random code books for another two months.
This was the one of the biggest ever intel blunders in the history and
you have missed it.Strange,to say at least.

Translation Denyav has replied to the message where I pointed out
what this meant and has now decided to lie about it rather than cope
with replying.

deleted text,

"I expect him to heroically delete my reply and the heroically repeat he
is repeating his same junk. Two heroic acts means another self
awarded medal."

Again you are dodging questions about the most important blunder of
Japanese in WWII,by filling your posts with senseless crap.

Lets see now, I have mentioned for quite some time the failure to
change additive books in December 1941.

Did Japanase continue to use old random JN25 code books for another
two months after introduction of "improved" JN25B version ?

Sigh, I keep telling you the additive book was not changed for the first
two months as for why you would have to ask the IJN, presumably an
administrative foul up.

Now tell us all how this meant the allies gained the complete code
book in 2 months. Not just a list of valid code groups.

As I posted before,JN25 was a 19th century system,very identical to
the system used by US forces between 1898-1917 and reason why US
phased out this system was very simple;it was insecure.

Translation no proof brought forward, just a wishful thinking.

Strange,You seem to know eveything about US ,but seemingly nothing about a
system which is used by US for twenty years.
BTW methods for cracking JN-25 or its father US system were published in
various journals world wide in 1931.

Translation no proof brought forward, just a wishful thinking.

Oh yes, the fact there is said to be a theoretical way to crack a
system is supposed to equal the system was cracked, silly isn't it?

The idea the Japanese might improve the system is dismissed.

Churchill pointed out all the messages they intercepted and decoded
were made public just after the wa

If you cannot dodge a question unfortunately you resort to lies.

This is good, see the Churchill quote below.

Check out Grand Alliance,page 598.

"From the end of 1940, the Americans pierced the vital Japanase ciphers,
and were decoding large numbers of their MILITARY and diplomatic messages"

W.Churchill

The quote is above is on page 532 of the edition I have access to,
on page 535 comes the quote,

"A prodigious Congressional Inquiry published its findings in
1946 in which every detail was exposed of the events leading
up to the war between the United States and Japan and of
the failure to send positive "alert" orders through the military
departments to their fleets and garrisons in exposed situations.
Every detail, including the decoding of secret Japanese
telegrams and their actual texts, has been displayed to the
world in forty volumes. The strength of the United States was
sufficient to enable them to sustain this hard ordeal required
by the spirit of the American Constitution."

Simple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.

And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it.

A hint for you:When Japanase introduced JN25B ?

A hint for you, when did the USN report it had cracked JN-25A?
How about the "dockyard" code? The weather code? Some of
the IJNAF codes? When exactly did the IJN move exclusively to
using JN-25B for everything?

The rest is deleted text.

Most of my stuff is cut and paste, you become interested in WWII and
you find the same conspiracy claims surfacing over and over.

The fact the posts have to be deleted is the best proof they are
accurate. Also the fleeing forward to new claims, not defending
the old junk. It seems we are going to be treated to the tour of the
various conspiracy claims, which goes to prove what Denyav is
when he can quote a character in the Pearl Harbor movie as a
source but also supply all the other conspiracy claims.

Since there are no sources for the following information can we assume
the nurse character in Pearl Harbor the movie is the source?

Presumably the British reporting the codes were hard to break is
also irrelevant?

1)They are not hard to break,they are actually 19th Century type codes that
somehow apperared in 20th century.

Note by the way there is no source for this claim, note the fact the
1930's are not that far into the 20th century. Radio and telegraph
communications forced the development of coding systems.

The code groups were disguised with random numbers, it forced
the US into using machines to break the code, to try and discover
the random numbers by comparing hundreds of messages. The
code breakers indicated this was a hard thing to do.

2)A very identical coding system was introduced in US in 1898 for
Navy and Army and and abondoned in 1917 because it was insecure.

So why didn't the US simply drag out the US code books and use
them? Perhaps because the systems were different? Please
describe the US systems, how they worked.

3)It has dictionary of 33,333 words and phrases each given as a five figure
number and these were added to random numbers contained in a 2nd code
book

Not quite, there were 33,333 valid code groups, in both the A and B
versions some were left blank for future expansion. In the B version
around 2/3 of the groups had a second meaning, giving around 55,000
valid meanings.

Random numbers were added to the code groups before transmission.

4)The dictionary was changed only once before Pearl Harbor on Dec 1,1940.
But random book was changed in every 3 to 6 months.

You forgot to mention the B version contained additional tables for
locations, date/time and positions, a super encypherment. These
tables were not broken out until mid 1942.

5)The Japanase blundered away the Code when they introduced
JN25B by continuing to use the random table books that have been
solved by the allies,for two more months.That was the equivalent of
reconstructing the exposed dictionary.US recovered the whole thing
immediately.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

As of Autumn 1940 the US had around 1,000 JN-25A code groups
it thought it knew the meanings for, work continued on the A version
until around March 1941, on 1 April 1941 there were 1,800 A
version groups "recovered", versus 300 B version groups. It should
be noted recoveries were not a linear process, new discoveries
could and did prove previously assigned meanings were wrong.

So if you know JB25B inroduction date,you also know when allies
cracked the code basically.

My cat has 4 legs and a tail my dog has 4 legs and a tail therefore
my dog is a cat. Simple sort of logic.

Put it to you thins way, you are given 30,000 5 digit random numbers,
which have 55,000 meanings. Solve instantly. Now solve when you
have less than 1/2 of the random numbers used to disguise the code
group values.

Now go work on this, if you know 10% of the random numbers and
10% of the code groups then, assuming randomness, around 1%
of the messages will contain code groups you know hidden by
random numbers you know.

To crack the code you needed to know the random numbers
and the code group values.

Just for the record,in 1994 NSA published that JN25B code was completely
cracked in December 1940.
They knew that many knew that and they finally admitted.

Yes folks this is the fun part of the lies.

“Early (Northern) Fall” 1940 the US code breakers realised the system
for numbers in JN-25A was the same as an old code the US has the
code book for, the code group was the number itself multiplied
by a constant. In a single day of checking the high frequency code
groups the code groups for the numbers 0 to 999 fell out, 1/30 of
the total code. Since all code these group values were divisible by
three it confirmed the tentative code group values previously
assigned were correct and told the code breakers valid code group
values were divisible by three.

After this discovery the task of further recoveries and exploiting
traffic was largely shifted to Corregidor, which for a time in 1940/41
was the largest USN code breaking unit, having completely absorbed
the Shanghai unit in December 1940. (SRH-179
notes that the personnel from Shanghai were transferred to Corregidor
in phases from August 1940 to December 1940. The last group of ten
men from Shanghai reported to Corregidor on 16 December 1940. Just
before that time the intercept and decryption efforts at Shanghai were
shut down.)

In effect Washington declared JN-25A “completely solved” and
“completely broken”, that is the system was understood and the
remaining work was in recovering and assigning meanings to code
groups, then exploiting the results. The result was most work was
directed at the earlier, now superseded versions, to try and recover
the underlying code groups, since there were many more messages
in those versions, the keys of the latest text additive book were also
targeted as intercepts built up. No attempt was made to read current
traffic.

See the different definitions being used? The USN used the definition
that it understood how the code system worked, it had cracked the
logic but it only had 1/30 of the code groups. The usual conspiracy
situation is to try and convince people what is being meant is 100%
recovery of code groups and random numbers.

6)In January 1941,US gave Britain two JN25B note books with keys

Ah yes, the US and UK combining recoveries is simply turned into
they had the entire code and additive books.

So here we go with another basic lie. One of the problems to sort out
in early 1941 was when the US and UK had different values for valid
random numbers and meanings for valid code groups.

7)Whole Pearl Harbor schema was based on this code.

You mean Yamamoto's letters to his staff were sent in JN-25B?
The couriered messages were in JN-25B?

This is really funny.

8)Between Sep1 and Pearl Harbor attack US intercepted total 26581
(acc.to NSA) JN25N coded messages.

Yes folks, apparently these messages were all about Pearl Harbor.

Deleted text,

"None of the messages found in the "Pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese Naval
Dispatches" file mention Pearl Harbor by name. (This file is found in
National Archives at College Park, RG 38, Crane Files, CNSG 5830/115; most
of the messages have also have been reprinted in "Pearl Harbor Revisited:
United States Navy Communications Intelligence, 1924-1941," an unclassified
monograph published by the National Security Agency in 1994.)"

The USN went back in 1945/46 and broke out as many of the pre war
messages as it could to see what they could have told. One of the
favourite tricks is to claim the 1946 dates are faked.

9)Churchill wrote "from the end of 1940 Americans had pierced vital
Japanase ciphers and were decoding large numbers of Japanase
MILITARY and diplomatic messages" GRAND ALLIANCE page 598

A more full version of the quote is,

"From the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the
vital Japanese ciphers, and were decoding large
numbers of their military and diplomatic telegrams. In
the secret American circles these were referred to as
'Magics'. The 'Magics' were repeated to us, but there
was an inevitable delay - sometimes of two or three
days - before we got them. We did not know therefore
at any given moment all that the President or Mr. Hull
knew. I make no complaint of this."

This is a favourite quote of the conspiracy crowd, it is supposed
to be Churchill confessing the code breakings they want. Apparently
putting the boot into the recently deceased FDR and also himself.

The quote is above is on page 532 of the edition I have access to,
on page 535 comes the quote,

"A prodigious Congressional Inquiry published its findings in
1946 in which every detail was exposed of the events leading
up to the war between the United States and Japan and of
the failure to send positive "alert" orders through the military
departments to their fleets and garrisons in exposed situations.
Every detail, including the decoding of secret Japanese
telegrams and their actual texts, has been displayed to the
world in forty volumes. The strength of the United States was
sufficient to enable them to sustain this hard ordeal required
by the spirit of the American Constitution."

Simple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.

And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it.

Hard to break JN25B code is an urban legend created in Washington
D.C.to cover treason.

Translation telling lies about JN-25 is an attempt to cover someone's
inability to cope with reality.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.