For Keith Willshaw...

Ah yes the USA is the source of all evil, but wait a moment, that means
there will be a disinformation campaign about this, one of the best ways
to hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since
that obscures the "real" events.

US is NOT the sole source of all evil,others tried and still try similar
things,for example Reichstag fire,but the difference is that the US was and is
worlds #1 in this issue by a big margin.

It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic

Who

hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since
that obscures the "real" events.

It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic


Lets go back,for example,to the year 1898.

What was the non "real" event?
1)Sinking of USS Maine
2)Using the event Nr.1 as a batttle cry to get popular support for an empire
building war
3)Emerging from Spanish-American war as a major power.

enyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

Actually you dont need to be on anybodys payroll, 99,99 % of information is
available to public if you know how to find them.
Simple isn't it, remember no proof is absolute proof, truth must pass
the "I like it" test and so on.

Yeah right,for example if White House destroys phone records there is no proof
that such calls were made unless somebody on other side of Atlantic
declassifies their own records.
But you can still control damage by asserting that they were lost accidentally.

And the request was to
advance the ranks at which Kimmel and Short were retired at.

Real radical policy change stuff.


Check out hearing transcripts:
Http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm
Accusations aimed at the power center of US government not at periphery.

The deleted claim was the Naval Board of Inquiry report was never
made public. This has to be ignored, since we know the outcome.

We know that was the only panel that allowed Kimmel to defend himself,present
his own case and evidences.
We also know after considering presented evidences Court came to conclusion
that Kimmel should be exonorated.
But we dont know the actual evidences.
We also dont know why Forrestal and King overrode court decision despite the
evidence.

On using Pearl Harbor the movie as a source,

"I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these
claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the
people the pilots and nurse were

Actually the movie completely ignored the role British intelligence which was
far more capable than US at that time.

Please tell us what court Kimmel was supposed to be in.


Kimmel was in the court which he supposed to be in.This court "exhonorated"
Kimmel but the decision of Court which Kimmel supposed to be in,was overturned
by Forrestal-King duo.
If Kimmel was that psychic, describing 2001, he had no need for warnings,
his telepathy should have been enough.

Kimmel surely was not a physic but US PSYOPs getting more and more like reruns
of the same movie.

By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to

Even tough Manila received warnings that Honolulu never received,MacArthur got
defeated and humiliated and lost much more men and equipment than Kimmel and
Short.
I wonder why nobody demoted him.
I wonder

Denyav wrote in message ...
Ah yes the USA is the source of all evil, but wait a moment, that means
there will be a disinformation campaign about this, one of the best ways
to hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since
that obscures the "real" events.

US is NOT the sole source of all evil,others tried and still try similar
things,for example Reichstag fire,but the difference is that the US was and is
worlds #1 in this issue by a big margin.

To prove this absurd claim the movie Pearl Harbor is cited as
proof, the actions of a fictional character in a work of fiction.

Nice auto repeat of my words, helps break them up.

It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic

Who

hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since
that obscures the "real" events.

It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic

Lets go back,for example,to the year 1898.

What was the non "real" event?
1)Sinking of USS Maine
2)Using the event Nr.1 as a batttle cry to get popular support for an empire
building war
3)Emerging from Spanish-American war as a major power.

You forgot the fact the US did not emerge from the Spanish American
war as a major power in military terms, it lacked the navy.

You forgot item 4) the conspiracy theory around the start of the war
and the claims the Maine was deliberately sabotaged by the US.
The non real event.

You see the fact the IJN attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 is known
and understood. The added "facts" of a conspiracy are the
contributions of people who cannot cope with reality. Go on, fight
the everlasting conspiracy, award yourself medals for fighting the
terrifying enemy, all in complete safety, since there is nothing to
fight, but go on murdering the truth for personal gain. Win the non
real event, since no one else is competing.

enyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

Actually you dont need to be on anybodys payroll, 99,99 % of information is
available to public if you know how to find them.

Yes folks, understand, look for your facts in Hollywood movies, just
add the words you want to historical documents and so on. It is
quite simple, since unwelcome reality can be wished away just
decide the preferred outcome and adjust the preferred facts
accordingly.

Denyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

By the way note below the talk is all about the missing evidence,
but we are told 99.99% is available.

Simple isn't it, remember no proof is absolute proof, truth must pass
the "I like it" test and so on.

Yeah right,for example if White House destroys phone records there is no proof
that such calls were made unless somebody on other side of Atlantic
declassifies their own records.
But you can still control damage by asserting that they were lost accidentally.

Note by the way this seems to have suddenly appeared, and just
ignore the various phone company records as well. Both British
and American.

Deleted text, on the Congressional moves,

"
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpqu...el=TOC_545749&

Go look up the other items included, the Indianapolis sinking and
the waiver on time limits for decorations. "

And the request was to
advance the ranks at which Kimmel and Short were retired at.

Real radical policy change stuff.

Check out hearing transcripts:
Http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm
Accusations aimed at the power center of US government not at periphery.

By the way the claim trying to be defended is the idea Kimmel hurled
such accusations at FDR etc. Instead we have the family members
putting the best case forward as to why Washington deserves some
of the blame.

The transcript indicates the accusations were the usual ones, the
people in Washington made the errors (not the conspiracy) and
the people in Pearl paid the price. Note the transcript is not about
prior knowledge of the attack, only the blame game afterwards.
However when you want to invent fiction just change this to
conspiracy accusations.

By the way in the above text Professor Gannon claims 1,000 PBY
patrol planes were sent to the British pre Pearl Harbor when he
calculates Pearl needed 200 for all round patrols but only had 49.
The British (meaning RAF, RCAF. RNZAF and RAAF) received
somewhere around 3/4 of this figure for the entire war.

The US produced a whole 410 Patrol bombers in 1941, up from
34 in 1940, 22 Martin Mariners (PBM), 6 Consolidated Coranados
(PB2Y) and 416 Catalinas (PBY) 1940 to 1941. The PBY had been
in production pre war, with around 200 delivered by the end of 1939.

Of course you need to remove from the totals the 41 patrol bombers
delivered in December 1941 and probably the 54 delivered in October
and November 1941 as not being available to sent to Hawaii in time.
Also noting the pre war deliveries, starting in 1936, were lower powered
versions, 1,800 to 2,000 HP versus 2,400 for the 1940 on versions

So we have around 600 patrol bombers with the necessary range built
and available to the USN and everyone else, less the attrition of normal
flying, 200 of which are needed for Pearl Harbor. Presumably then over
200 are needed for the Philippines, then comes the U-boat threat to the
US east coast plus Panama then comes the British requirement. The
British are useful, they give feedback on actual combat operations. Do
not forget aircraft for training operations as well plus the inevitable losses.

Kimmel is allowed "lack of resources" but Washington is not. Nice use
of logic.

So what's that say 600 aircraft, less around 1/2 for obsolete types, for
training and attrition, and we have 300 suitable aircraft. Pearl wants
200, the Philippines wants more, the east coast wants some, the
British want some, the training system wants more so it can up the
training rate and so on.

Pearl Harbor was given 49 aircraft, enough to continuously cover an
arc of 90 degrees according to Professor Gannon, or the approaches
from the Japanese mandated islands. How many were actually flying
such searches on the 5th, 6th and 7th?

The deleted claim was the Naval Board of Inquiry report was never
made public. This has to be ignored, since we know the outcome.

We know that was the only panel that allowed Kimmel to defend himself,present
his own case and evidences.

It was an inquiry not a trial. And I note the change of subject, from
the claims made about the inquiry to the procedures it followed.

We also know after considering presented evidences Court came to conclusion
that Kimmel should be exonorated.

The inquiry released its findings in August 1945 according to the supplied
URL.

But we dont know the actual evidences.

Presumably this means you have not bothered to look it up, it was not
in the Pearl Harbor movie.

We also dont know why Forrestal and King overrode court decision despite the
evidence.

Gone looking for this evidence? Just jump to conspiracy theory, instead
of something like they decided it looked like the Navy was being kind to
its own.

Deleted text,

"Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen."

On claims the inquiries were rigged,

"I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair."

On using Pearl Harbor the movie as a source,

"I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these
claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the
people the pilots and nurse were

Actually the movie completely ignored the role British intelligence which was
far more capable than US at that time.

Ah yes the movie Pearl Harbor is your guide to US intelligence
actions in 1941, but wait, there is more, since the movie is a joke
on this point the need is to imply the British did it. Just ignore the
way the British had more pressing matters on their hands, that
the US was leading the way against Japanese diplomatic traffic
and the British and US were sharing IJN code recovery work.
So what one knew the other did as well.

Please tell us what court Kimmel was supposed to be in.

Kimmel was in the court which he supposed to be in.This court "exhonorated"
Kimmel but the decision of Court which Kimmel supposed to be in,was overturned
by Forrestal-King duo.

Yes folks, Kimmel was where he should be, no matter where you
go, there you are.

Note by the way the attempt to paint the inquiry as the absolutely right
result, despite claiming not to have seen the evidence presented to it.
The USN is the straight organisation, despite the fact it would have
been doing the decoding of those wonder messages, it is the one
that holds the "truth", everything else is wrong. The conspiracy does
not apply to the naval inquiry, it could never have been rigged of
course, it has the "right" result, so everything else was rigged.

What did the inquiry clear Kimmel of, dereliction of duty, lack of
judgement?

Standard conspiracy stuff, the right answer is out there, somewhere,
pick your preferred outcome.

Previously before the next text was another standard claim about
conspiracies, as usual the claim has to be deleted and the subject changed.

If Kimmel was that psychic, describing 2001, he had no need for warnings,
his telepathy should have been enough.

Kimmel surely was not a physic but US PSYOPs getting more and more
like reruns of the same movie.

Translation Denyav is in flashback mode.

By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to

deleted text,

"enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in."

Even tough Manila received warnings that Honolulu never received,
MacArthur got defeated and humiliated and lost much more men and
equipment than Kimmel and Short.

I like this, especially since I posted text showing how the War Warning
messages were the same around the Pacific. And MacArthur certainly
did not lose more men and equipment that the people in Hawaii in the
opening day of the war.

What I really like is the duck, unable to answer the text, so change the
subject.

"By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to
enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in."

I wonder why nobody demoted him. I wonder

Try and read history, it provides answers like, 1) too far away to know
exactly what was going on, 2) MacArthur controlling much of the
information flow, 3) The low expectations about holding the Philippines,
4) The reality moving against MacArthur would provoke a reaction in
Washington, being seen as an attempt by FDR to rid himself of an
unwanted General.

Deleted text,

It would be nice to know the source of the claimed Kimmel words, it
seems his lifetime's output is being searched for any claim he made,
no proof offered.

Remarkable line being run, the US is the source of all evil but the US
is so good, so amazing, it cannot be defeated, only betrayed from
within. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees
and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ended up.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

To prove this absurd claim the movie Pearl Harbor is cited as
proof, the actions of a fictional character in a work of fiction.


Actually the reality is much worse than movie makers could even imagine.

Do you know why Kimmels predecessor was relieved of command and replaced by
Kimmel?

The architect of FDRs Japan &Pearl Harbor game plan was McCollum and McCollum
was also,what a surprise !!,head of navy intelligence unit responsible IJN
dispatches.
Thats the reason why movies mention mostly japanase diplomatic dispatches.
You forgot the fact the US did not emerge from the Spanish American
war as a major power in military terms, it lacked the navy.

It was turning point,with Spanish war USN stopped acting like a littorial navy
and started to act like an imperial navy.


ope with reality. Go on, fight
the everlasting conspiracy, award yourself medals for fighting the
terrifying enemy, all in complete safety, since there is nothing to
fight, but go on murdering the truth for personal gain. Win the non
real event, since no one else is competing.

Laws alone cannot deter crooks,if you are not able or willing to
catch,prosecute and convict them,no crook will be deterred by the laws written
in books.
In same token,induviduals who plan vicious acts aganist their own people will
not be deterred if the people who planned similar acts in the past could go
free or still worse,regarded as Statesmen.

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach.

Denyav wrote in message ...
To prove this absurd claim the movie Pearl Harbor is cited as
proof, the actions of a fictional character in a work of fiction.

Actually the reality is much worse than movie makers could even imagine.

Yes folks, the fictional movie is to be supplemented with more fiction.

Do you know why Kimmels predecessor was relieved of command and
replaced by Kimmel?

Disagreement with the boss.

The architect of FDRs Japan &Pearl Harbor game plan was McCollum
and McCollum was also,what a surprise !!,head of navy intelligence unit responsible IJN dispatches.
Thats the reason why movies mention mostly japanase diplomatic dispatches.

I just love these sorts of conspiracy theories, they provide endless hours
of laughter. It was to be expected Stinnett would make his appearance,
his use of the famed McCollum Memo.

By the way if you really want to have us believe Stinnett is the
authority check out his page 324 of his hardcover edition
where he states "There is no reliable evidence, found by the
author, that establishes how much of the 5 - Num [JN25]
could be deciphered, translated and read by naval cryptographers
in 1941". Now go back and read the book where it assumes,
his opinion, his assumption, the USN could read the signals
Stinnett wants them to have read, including the ones he tries
to pretend were sent by radio instead of hand delivered.
Stinnett has no idea what the USN could read, he simply gives
his opinion.

The conspiracy here is one where people are paid for telling other
people what they want to hear. The truth is to be ignored, the money
does the talking, be poorer for being lied to and then be unwilling to
admit the mistake, and so make yourself even poorer.

However the really fun thing is the way the fiction in Stinnett is to
be enhanced, by promoting McCollum. No longer is he the Far East
expert in the Office of Naval Intelligence, no he is promoted to the
command of either ONI (Captain or Admiral rank) or the head of
OP-20-GYP, the USN organisation charged with breaking Japanese
codes, it was originally called OP-20-GY.

Also the famed memo never went further than his boss, nowhere
near FDR.

By the way if the latest attempt at fiction is to somehow pretend
the USN decryption section did not do the work on "purple" it shows
an even bigger lack of reality. The "purple" work overloaded the
section, slowing down all work. The USN had only one section of
cryptographers and security cleared language experts.

Finally all the IJN documents and survivors agree the force did not
transmit after leaving their usual harbours. See for example the
surviving logs, the 1942 IJN after action report and the post war
interrogations. The idea Yamamoto would be so stupid as to
put his strike force in a harbour that could only be contacted by
radio is a joke.

The Japanese Navy took control over the cable station at Hitokappu
Bay. Also, there was a marine cable between Nemuro, Hokkaido
and Shana, Etorofu in 1941 which was then tied to the telegraph
office at Hitokappu Bay. Source. Recollection of Mr. Hirokazu
Kawguchi of Hachioji City in Tokyo who was born at Shana in
1923 and worked at the Shana cable office.

Next, there was a daily air courier service between Ominato and
Hitokappu Bay to transfer documents received from Tokyo by air
and to send documents to Tokyo by air while the 1st Air Fleet was
at Hitokappu Bay. Source. “History on Communications” by
Admiral Susumiiro Ishiguru (of Strike Force experience) (Tokyo:
Tokyo Reserve Police Association 1953).

You forgot the fact the US did not emerge from the Spanish American
war as a major power in military terms, it lacked the navy.

It was turning point,with Spanish war USN stopped acting like a littorial navy
and started to act like an imperial navy.

By the way folks, the conspiracy claims are dropped, instead we
have something totally different dropped in.

Deleted text,

"You forgot item 4) the conspiracy theory around the start of the war
and the claims the Maine was deliberately sabotaged by the US.
The non real event.

You see the fact the IJN attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 is known
and understood. The added "facts" of a conspiracy are the
contributions of people who cannot cope with reality. "

ope with reality. Go on, fight
the everlasting conspiracy, award yourself medals for fighting the
terrifying enemy, all in complete safety, since there is nothing to
fight, but go on murdering the truth for personal gain. Win the non
real event, since no one else is competing.

Laws alone cannot deter crooks,if you are not able or willing to
catch,prosecute and convict them,no crook will be deterred by the
laws written in books.
In same token,induviduals who plan vicious acts aganist their own people will
not be deterred if the people who planned similar acts in the past could go
free or still worse,regarded as Statesmen.

Translation do not deal with the issues on their merits, invent crimes
from years ago and use those as an excuse to do what you want to
do, above all do not think.

I note the fun things like the URL for the congressional petition transcript
makes note of the Japanese consulate's words about a surprise attack
being possible, a message not broken out before the attack, to accuse
Washington of short changing the field commanders.

If the assessment is a surprise attack was possible what does that say
of two things,

1) the size of the defences
2) the alertness of the defences.

1) Is largely Washington determined, 2) is locally determined. But do
not worry, erase item 2 and carry on with the field commanders did
nothing wrong line.

The rest is simply text that could not be replied to,

Yes folks, understand, look for your facts in Hollywood movies, just
add the words you want to historical documents and so on. It is
quite simple, since unwelcome reality can be wished away just
decide the preferred outcome and adjust the preferred facts
accordingly.

Denyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

By the way note below the talk is all about the missing evidence,
but we are told 99.99% is available.

Deleted text, on the Congressional moves,

"
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpqu...el=TOC_545749&

Go look up the other items included, the Indianapolis sinking and
the waiver on time limits for decorations. "

http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm

By the way the claim trying to be defended is the idea Kimmel hurled
such accusations at FDR etc. Instead we have the family members
putting the best case forward as to why Washington deserves some
of the blame.

The transcript indicates the accusations were the usual ones, the
people in Washington made the errors (not the conspiracy) and
the people in Pearl paid the price. Note the transcript is not about
prior knowledge of the attack, only the blame game afterwards.
However when you want to invent fiction just change this to
conspiracy accusations.

By the way in the above text Professor Gannon claims 1,000 PBY
patrol planes were sent to the British pre Pearl Harbor when he
calculates Pearl needed 200 for all round patrols but only had 49.
The British (meaning RAF, RCAF. RNZAF and RAAF) received
somewhere around 3/4 of this figure for the entire war.

The US produced a whole 410 Patrol bombers in 1941, up from
34 in 1940, 22 Martin Mariners (PBM), 6 Consolidated Coranados
(PB2Y) and 416 Catalinas (PBY) 1940 to 1941. The PBY had been
in production pre war, with around 200 delivered by the end of 1939.

Of course you need to remove from the totals the 41 patrol bombers
delivered in December 1941 and probably the 54 delivered in October
and November 1941 as not being available to sent to Hawaii in time.
Also noting the pre war deliveries, starting in 1936, were lower powered
versions, 1,800 to 2,000 HP versus 2,400 for the 1940 on versions

So we have around 600 patrol bombers with the necessary range built
and available to the USN and everyone else, less the attrition of normal
flying, 200 of which are needed for Pearl Harbor. Presumably then over
200 are needed for the Philippines, then comes the U-boat threat to the
US east coast plus Panama then comes the British requirement. The
British are useful, they give feedback on actual combat operations. Do
not forget aircraft for training operations as well plus the inevitable losses.

Kimmel is allowed "lack of resources" but Washington is not. Nice use
of logic.

So what's that say 600 aircraft, less around 1/2 for obsolete types, for
training and attrition, and we have 300 suitable aircraft. Pearl wants
200, the Philippines wants more, the east coast wants some, the
British want some, the training system wants more so it can up the
training rate and so on.

Pearl Harbor was given 49 aircraft, enough to continuously cover an
arc of 90 degrees according to Professor Gannon, or the approaches
from the Japanese mandated islands. How many were actually flying
such searches on the 5th, 6th and 7th?

Gone looking for this evidence? Just jump to conspiracy theory, instead
of something like they decided it looked like the Navy was being kind to
its own.

Deleted text,

"Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen."

On claims the inquiries were rigged,

"I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair."

Ah yes the movie Pearl Harbor is your guide to US intelligence
actions in 1941, but wait, there is more, since the movie is a joke
on this point the need is to imply the British did it. Just ignore the
way the British had more pressing matters on their hands, that
the US was leading the way against Japanese diplomatic traffic
and the British and US were sharing IJN code recovery work.
So what one knew the other did as well.

Yes folks, Kimmel was where he should be, no matter where you
go, there you are.

Note by the way the attempt to paint the inquiry as the absolutely right
result, despite claiming not to have seen the evidence presented to it.
The USN is the straight organisation, despite the fact it would have
been doing the decoding of those wonder messages, it is the one
that holds the "truth", everything else is wrong. The conspiracy does
not apply to the naval inquiry, it could never have been rigged of
course, it has the "right" result, so everything else was rigged.

What did the inquiry clear Kimmel of, dereliction of duty, lack of
judgement?

Standard conspiracy stuff, the right answer is out there, somewhere,
pick your preferred outcome.

Previously before the next text was another standard claim about
conspiracies, as usual the claim has to be deleted and the subject changed.

I like this, especially since I posted text showing how the War Warning
messages were the same around the Pacific. And MacArthur certainly
did not lose more men and equipment that the people in Hawaii in the
opening day of the war.

What I really like is the duck, unable to answer the text, so change the
subject.

"By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to
enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in."

Try and read history, it provides answers like, 1) too far away to know
exactly what was going on, 2) MacArthur controlling much of the
information flow, 3) The low expectations about holding the Philippines,
4) The reality moving against MacArthur would provoke a reaction in
Washington, being seen as an attempt by FDR to rid himself of an
unwanted General.

Deleted text,

It would be nice to know the source of the claimed Kimmel words, it
seems his lifetime's output is being searched for any claim he made,
no proof offered.

Remarkable line being run, the US is the source of all evil but the US
is so good, so amazing, it cannot be defeated, only betrayed from
within. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees
and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ended up.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

..

I just love these sorts of conspiracy theories, they provide endless hours
of laughter. It was to be expected Stinnett would make his appearance,
his use of the famed McCollum Memo.

By the way if you really want to have us believe Stinnett is the
authority check out his page 324 of his hardcover edition
where he states "There is no reliable evidence, found by the
author, that establishes how much of the 5 - Num [JN25]
could be deciphered, translated and read by naval cryptographers
in 1941". Now go back and read the book where it assumes,
his opinion, his assumption, the USN could read the signals
Stinnett wants them to have read, including the ones he tries
to pretend were sent by radio instead of hand delivered.
Stinnett has no idea what the USN could read, he simply gives
his opinion.

Stinnett is the man who discovered that truthful answers to Pearl
Harbor controversy secreted in bomb proof vaults,withheld from two
congressional investigations and from American People.
As Late as 1995 the Joint Congressional investigation conducted by
Sen.Thurman and and Rep.Franke was denied access to the Naval storage
vault in Crane, IN
Because of his efforts Naval Security Group Command agreed to transfer
Crane files to National Archieves.
"The Days of Deceipt" is based on what he found in first batch of
released documents.
After the days of deceipt appeared a strange thing happened,NSA
immediately started withdrawing pre Pearl Harbor documents from
Archive II.
As of today almost 30 NSA withdrawal notices guarantee that pre Pearl
Harbor documents discovered in Crane IN will be off limits to American
People and their elected represantatives for another 60 years
Your above mentioned quote from the book refers to percentage of
deciphered japanase messages it might be 30% or might be 100%.
As I said before the book was based on documents found in first batch
of Crane documents released in middle of 90s,and information revealed
in documents astonishing,but crane documents reviewed by Stinnett was
only a minuscule percentage of crane documents,by far not enough to
say something definite about the percentage of Japanase messages
deciphered and translated by US.

The conspiracy here is one where people are paid for telling other
people what they want to hear. The truth is to be ignored, the money
does the talking, be poorer for being lied to and then be unwilling to
admit the mistake, and so make yourself even poorer.

Official Version here is the one where the officials are paid for
telling the public what their bosses want.This is one important
difference.
Another important difference between offical story tellers and
conspiracy loons is the following:Offical story tellers have
priviledge to distort or completely withhold information whereas
conspiracy loons cannot even dream of having such priviledges.

However the really fun thing is the way the fiction in Stinnett is to
be enhanced, by promoting McCollum. No longer is he the Far East
expert in the Office of Naval Intelligence, no he is promoted to the
command of either ONI (Captain or Admiral rank) or the head of
OP-20-GYP, the USN organisation charged with breaking Japanese
codes, it was originally called OP-20-GY.

Also the famed memo never went further than his boss, nowhere
near FDR.
The Famed Memo did not need to go anywhere,it became offical Japan
policy of FDR administration.

By the way if the latest attempt at fiction is to somehow pretend
the USN decryption section did not do the work on "purple" it shows
an even bigger lack of reality. The "purple" work overloaded the
section, slowing down all work. The USN had only one section of
cryptographers and security cleared language experts.

Finally all the IJN documents and survivors agree the force did not
transmit after leaving their usual harbours. See for example the
surviving logs, the 1942 IJN after action report and the post war
interrogations. The idea Yamamoto would be so stupid as to
put his strike force in a harbour that could only be contacted by
radio is a joke.

The Japanese Navy took control over the cable station at Hitokappu
Bay. Also, there was a marine cable between Nemuro, Hokkaido
and Shana, Etorofu in 1941 which was then tied to the telegraph
office at Hitokappu Bay. Source. Recollection of Mr. Hirokazu
Kawguchi of Hachioji City in Tokyo who was born at Shana in
1923 and worked at the Shana cable office.

Next, there was a daily air courier service between Ominato and
Hitokappu Bay to transfer documents received from Tokyo by air
and to send documents to Tokyo by air while the 1st Air Fleet was
at Hitokappu Bay. Source. ?History on Communications? by
Admiral Susumiiro Ishiguru (of Strike Force experience) (Tokyo:
Tokyo Reserve Police Association 1953).


Who told Yamamato that their Naval code was broken?
Even today you can intercept any radio transmission easily,but if you
cannot decode and decipher it,its useless.
Even after Pearl Harbor IJN continued to use the same code because
they were not aware that it was broken.
Radio messages sent with unbroken or unbreakable code is as safe as
courier messages,if not more.

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 2.

denyav wrote in message ...

Actually I wrote the first set of text,

I just love these sorts of conspiracy theories, they provide endless hours
of laughter. It was to be expected Stinnett would make his appearance,
his use of the famed McCollum Memo.

By the way if you really want to have us believe Stinnett is the
authority check out his page 324 of his hardcover edition
where he states "There is no reliable evidence, found by the
author, that establishes how much of the 5 - Num [JN25]
could be deciphered, translated and read by naval cryptographers
in 1941". Now go back and read the book where it assumes,
his opinion, his assumption, the USN could read the signals
Stinnett wants them to have read, including the ones he tries
to pretend were sent by radio instead of hand delivered.
Stinnett has no idea what the USN could read, he simply gives
his opinion.

Stinnett is the man who discovered that truthful answers to Pearl
Harbor controversy secreted in bomb proof vaults,withheld from two
congressional investigations and from American People.

Yes folks, Robert Stinnett wrote a book where he relied on the US
intercepting and decoding key IJN messages, then at the end of the
book he told us all he had no idea what the US decoding abilities
were. Just ignore the fact all through the book it is assumed the
needed messages were decoded as required. It does help him
when he ignores the change over from the A to the B version of JN-25
in late 1940, just assumed the success against the A version carried
over to the B version, which was a different code book.

Stinnett simply ignores the IJN code book upgrade of December
1940 in order to make his book work. That is the blinding of
allied intelligence after making good progress into the initial code
book "A" (hence the classification of the code in use in 1941 as
JN-25 "B") is simply ignored by Stinnett. When challenged about
this on his web site he simply failed to respond, except to complain
about spelling errors and insist on "correct terminology". Taking
Stinnett's word is a bad move.

If you want a fun exercise in fact checking try and find a Stinnett
footnote that actually backs up the claims in the text.

So change the subject, peddle Stinnett's fiction about Pearl then
peddle his fiction about US archives.

Also note below which section McCollum was in, not OP-20-GY
(codebreakers), the deleted claim was,

"The architect of FDRs Japan &Pearl Harbor game plan was McCollum
and McCollum was also,what a surprise !!,head of navy intelligence
unit responsible IJN dispatches."

This claim had to go, along with Pearl Harbor the movie as a source,
the British knew more than the US and so on.

I pinched the memo "highlights" from another post, note how the
memo is addressed to the directors, not someone in the white
house, yet it is supposed to make it to FDR in time for him to
make it the lunchtime conversation the next day, the "proof" FDR
saw the memo, just ignore the diary of the person FDR lunched with.

"Op-16-F-2 ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) 7 October 1940
Memorandum For The Directors
Subject: ESTIMATE OF THE SITUATION IN THE PACIFIC AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR ACTION OF THE UNITED STATES..."

A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British
bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore."

The USN did not use British bases until after the war started.
There was a conference in Manila about cooperation but it
ended with the sighting of the IJN invasion convoys heading
for Malaya. So this never happened pre war.

By the way the German Japanese naval base agreement
had been signed in 1940 or earlier.

"B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities
and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies" (now Indonesia)."

As for point A. Never happened pre war.

"C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang
Kai-shek."

30 aircraft in 1940, 141 in 1941, compared with 1,507 for the
British in 1940 and 5,249 in 1941. The USSR received more
aircraft than China, in fact the "other foreign" column has 787
aircraft delivered at the US factories. All possible aid would
have been a lot more aircraft for a start.

By the way the 30 aircraft for China in 1940 were trainers,
70 of the 1941 aircraft were trainers, 53 fighters, 18 light bombers.

So I presume the German sale of 12 aircraft to China in 1937
is an indicator Germany is giving all aid as well?

How about the German military advisors present on the Chinese
side in the late 1930s? I think they were withdrawn in 1939.

"D. Send a division of long-range heavy cruisers to the western
Pacific, the Philippines and Singapore."

Didn't happen, hint Manila is in the western pacific, it had a heavy
and a light cruiser plus the occasional extra cruiser passing through.

"E. Send two divisions of submarines to the western Pacific."

There were already USN submarines based in Manila, and the
memo's ideas of reinforcements was not followed. As a guide
to the changes note the USN had 96 submarines available, some
in reserve, in September 1939, the older boats were brought out
of reserve after war began in Europe and the total number
available grew steadily to 112 by the end of November 1941.

By the way USN submarine deployments to Manila from
DANFS, according to my by hand counts.

11/24 (yes 24) onward S-36, S-37, S-38, S-39, S-40, S-41

7/1925 to 5/1932 S-30, S-31, S-32, S-33, S-34, S-35

So until the depression the USN had 12 submarines present.

12/39 onward Porpoise, Pike, Tarpon, Perch, Pickerel, Permit

So the 12 submarine force is restored.

1939 Searaven "two years before war" my bet it should be with the
5 following submarines to make another 6 ship squadron and
arrived at the end of 1940.

1940 Seawolf (autumn)

10 or 11/40 Stingray, Seadragon, Sealion
12/40 Shark

1941 month unknown Snapper (probably 11/41), Sailfish (after 3/41
at least since that was the month it started a refit in the US)

11/41 Salmon, Seal, Sturgeon, Sargo, Saury, Spearfish, Sculpin,
Swordfish, Skipjack

Total 29, the force at the start of the war, I think 4 were
refitting on 8 December.

"F. Keep the main strength of the U.S. fleet, now in the Pacific, in
the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands."

Done before the memo was written, the memo is dated in October,
the basing decision was on 1 May 1940.

"G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for
undue economic concessions, Particularly oil."

Add the British as well, it made no sense for the US to
embargo oil if the Dutch and British would replace the
lost sales. The US did not need to do much to persuade
the Dutch, the Japanese idea of terms of trade did much
to persuade the Dutch extra trade was not worth it.

"H. Completely embargo all trade with Japan, in collaboration
with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire."

Finally happened, however the memo forgets to add the Dutch
to the embargo.

FDR had imposed trade embargoes on aviation fuel, lubricants
and high grade scrap metal on 25 July 1940. On 26 September
scrap iron was added to the list.

In the first week in October, that is just before the memo was written
the US ordered all Americans out of the far east, called up the naval
reserve and authorised Anglo-American staff talks in Singapore.
Additional supplies were sent to the Philippines as well.

Remember folks, the memo is supposed to be the blueprint, apparently
able to influence decisions before it was written.

The Japanese negotiations with the Dutch over oil finally ended in the
first week in October, with no gains for the Japanese.

"10. If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act
of war, so much the better. At all event we must be fully
prepared to accept the treat of war."

Yes, Japan preferred war to giving up the chance to colonise China.

So 8 recommendations, the first 4 were not followed, the fifth was not
followed at the time, though more submarines were sent and then even
more in late 1941, the sixth and seventh had already happened before
the memo was written, the eighth finally happened around 9 months
later and only after further Japanese expansion.

Just remember the memo is the claimed blueprint for US government
policy.

As Late as 1995 the Joint Congressional investigation conducted by
Sen.Thurman and and Rep.Franke was denied access to the Naval storage
vault in Crane, IN
Because of his efforts Naval Security Group Command agreed to transfer
Crane files to National Archieves.
"The Days of Deceipt" is based on what he found in first batch of
released documents.
After the days of deceipt appeared a strange thing happened,NSA
immediately started withdrawing pre Pearl Harbor documents from
Archive II.
As of today almost 30 NSA withdrawal notices guarantee that pre Pearl
Harbor documents discovered in Crane IN will be off limits to American
People and their elected represantatives for another 60 years

In the early 1990s the U. S. Navy transferred all its cryptologic
archives from Crane, Indiana to the National Archives in
Washington. This includes 26,581 JN-25 intercepts from 1
September to 7 December. All of these are available for public
review.

Stinnett is trying to run the line the truth is out there, the documents
are missing, to defend against all the holes in his book. Hence the
above claims of hidden documents. All IJN messages had a serial
number, missing serials are assumed to be US hiding them, as
opposed to US not intercepting them.

Your above mentioned quote from the book refers to percentage of
deciphered japanase messages it might be 30% or might be 100%.

Yes folks, just keep peddling the fiction, ignore the documents that
say 0%.

As I said before the book was based on documents found in first batch
of Crane documents released in middle of 90s,and information revealed
in documents astonishing,but crane documents reviewed by Stinnett was
only a minuscule percentage of crane documents,by far not enough to
say something definite about the percentage of Japanase messages
deciphered and translated by US.

By the way folks, note Stinnett is very definite in the book about what
messages were decoded. Including ones the Japanese say were
never sent by radio. Stinnett is the truth bringer, even when he says
he has no proof it seems.

Also Stinnett was not the motivator for the release of the documents,
he took advantage of their release.

Stephen Budiansky, using the original USN designation
AN for what was later called JN-25B.

"Contemporaneous, month-by-month reports on the progress of the Navy
codebreakers, each date-stamped, cover the entire period 1940-41. They
cover the work of the entire unit known as OP-20-GY, the Navy cryptanalytic
office in Washington, and also report on the progress of the Navy
decryption units in Hawaii and Cavite. They show unambiguously that when
the AN codebook was changed on December 1940, and subsequently when the
additive tables used with the code were changed on August 1, 1941, the U.S.
Navy lost its ability to read this traffic altogether. By December 1, 1941,
only 3,800 of the 30,000-plus code groups and 2,500 of the 50,000 additives
in AN had been recovered. (Most of the recovered code groups were those for
numerals, an even further limitation on reading.) "

Also note,

"None of the messages found in the "Pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese Naval
Dispatches" file mention Pearl Harbor by name. (This file is found in
National Archives at College Park, RG 38, Crane Files, CNSG 5830/115; most
of the messages have also have been reprinted in "Pearl Harbor Revisited:
United States Navy Communications Intelligence, 1924-1941," an unclassified
monograph published by the National Security Agency in 1994.)"

The USN went back in 1945/46 and broke out as many of the pre war
messages as it could to see what they could have told. One of the
favourite tricks is to claim the 1946 dates are faked.

The conspiracy here is one where people are paid for telling other
people what they want to hear. The truth is to be ignored, the money
does the talking, be poorer for being lied to and then be unwilling to
admit the mistake, and so make yourself even poorer.

Official Version here is the one where the officials are paid for
telling the public what their bosses want.This is one important
difference.

Yes folks, ignore the many non official probes into Pearl Harbor
that conclude the US did not know, just try and pretend it is all
official history. Hundreds of books, articles and so on.

Another important difference between offical story tellers and
conspiracy loons is the following:Offical story tellers have
priviledge to distort or completely withhold information whereas
conspiracy loons cannot even dream of having such priviledges.

Think about this one folks, the conspiracy loons apparently do not
have the privileges to lie and distort, they must be officially granted
it seems. So the conspiracy theories become officially sanctioned,
which makes them wrong of course, as the official works are
classified as wrong.

Ah a good laugh does wonders.

However the really fun thing is the way the fiction in Stinnett is to
be enhanced, by promoting McCollum. No longer is he the Far East
expert in the Office of Naval Intelligence, no he is promoted to the
command of either ONI (Captain or Admiral rank) or the head of
OP-20-GYP, the USN organisation charged with breaking Japanese
codes, it was originally called OP-20-GY.

Also the famed memo never went further than his boss, nowhere
near FDR.

The Famed Memo did not need to go anywhere,it became offical Japan
policy of FDR administration.

Yes folks, the memo, which no one beyond the writer and his boss saw
became US government policy. Presumably by telepathy. Just try and
ignore minor points like the decision to move the Pacific fleet to Hawaii
predates the memo.

See the memo above to note the gap between reality and the claims.

By the way if the latest attempt at fiction is to somehow pretend
the USN decryption section did not do the work on "purple" it shows
an even bigger lack of reality. The "purple" work overloaded the
section, slowing down all work. The USN had only one section of
cryptographers and security cleared language experts.

Finally all the IJN documents and survivors agree the force did not
transmit after leaving their usual harbours. See for example the
surviving logs, the 1942 IJN after action report and the post war
interrogations. The idea Yamamoto would be so stupid as to
put his strike force in a harbour that could only be contacted by
radio is a joke.

The Japanese Navy took control over the cable station at Hitokappu
Bay. Also, there was a marine cable between Nemuro, Hokkaido
and Shana, Etorofu in 1941 which was then tied to the telegraph
office at Hitokappu Bay. Source. Recollection of Mr. Hirokazu
Kawguchi of Hachioji City in Tokyo who was born at Shana in
1923 and worked at the Shana cable office.

Next, there was a daily air courier service between Ominato and
Hitokappu Bay to transfer documents received from Tokyo by air
and to send documents to Tokyo by air while the 1st Air Fleet was
at Hitokappu Bay. Source. ?History on Communications? by
Admiral Susumiiro Ishiguru (of Strike Force experience) (Tokyo:
Tokyo Reserve Police Association 1953).

Who told Yamamato that their Naval code was broken?

Yes folks, just try and change the subject, the IJN says it did not
transmit, in logs written at the time, in the wartime after action
report and during the post war interrogations. This has to be
ignored. The idea Yamamoto was so stupid as to park his
top secret task force in a place where there was only radio
communications has to be ignored.

Just ignore the way traffic analysis works, the use of call signs
on messages to gain an idea what is going on, the volume and
size of messages. Then add direction finding on transmitters.

No folks, the IJN is assumed to be completely ignorant of any
sort of radio discipline or deception techniques.

The conspiracy needs the IJN in on the act from1941 on.

Navies are well aware of the need to limit radio traffic, they try to
do it as much as possible, the IJN understood the reasons why and
acted accordingly.

Even today you can intercept any radio transmission easily,but if you
cannot decode and decipher it,its useless.

Know nothing about the uses of traffic analysis and direction
finding I see.

Even after Pearl Harbor IJN continued to use the same code because
they were not aware that it was broken.
Radio messages sent with unbroken or unbreakable code is as safe as
courier messages,if not more.

Yes folks, just ignore the fact you can learn a lot from the call signs,
who is talking to who, the volume of traffic and the movements of
mobile transmitters.

It is amusing to see the idea couriers are less secure than radio
transmissions, presumably why no one uses couriers any more.

As Professor Kimball wrote: "It seems to me that to brand WSC
and/or FDR as conspirators requires that they be seen as evil
geniuses. But for them to allow the U.S. Fleet to be clobbered
means they were stupid. That doesn't compute." "

The rest of the post is simply text that could not be replied to,

By the way folks, the conspiracy claims are dropped, instead we
have something totally different dropped in.

Deleted text,

"You forgot item 4) the conspiracy theory around the start of the war
and the claims the Maine was deliberately sabotaged by the US.
The non real event.

You see the fact the IJN attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 is known
and understood. The added "facts" of a conspiracy are the
contributions of people who cannot cope with reality. "

Translation do not deal with the issues on their merits, invent crimes
from years ago and use those as an excuse to do what you want to
do, above all do not think.

I note the fun things like the URL for the congressional petition transcript
makes note of the Japanese consulate's words about a surprise attack
being possible, a message not broken out before the attack, to accuse
Washington of short changing the field commanders.

If the assessment is a surprise attack was possible what does that say
of two things,

1) the size of the defences
2) the alertness of the defences.

1) Is largely Washington determined, 2) is locally determined. But do
not worry, erase item 2 and carry on with the field commanders did
nothing wrong line.

Yes folks, understand, look for your facts in Hollywood movies, just
add the words you want to historical documents and so on. It is
quite simple, since unwelcome reality can be wished away just
decide the preferred outcome and adjust the preferred facts
accordingly.

Denyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

By the way note below the talk is all about the missing evidence,
but we are told 99.99% is available.

Deleted text, on the Congressional moves,

"
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpqu...el=TOC_545749&

Go look up the other items included, the Indianapolis sinking and
the waiver on time limits for decorations. "

http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm

By the way the claim trying to be defended is the idea Kimmel hurled
such accusations at FDR etc. Instead we have the family members
putting the best case forward as to why Washington deserves some
of the blame.

The transcript indicates the accusations were the usual ones, the
people in Washington made the errors (not the conspiracy) and
the people in Pearl paid the price. Note the transcript is not about
prior knowledge of the attack, only the blame game afterwards.
However when you want to invent fiction just change this to
conspiracy accusations.

By the way in the above text Professor Gannon claims 1,000 PBY
patrol planes were sent to the British pre Pearl Harbor when he
calculates Pearl needed 200 for all round patrols but only had 49.
The British (meaning RAF, RCAF. RNZAF and RAAF) received
somewhere around 3/4 of this figure for the entire war.

The US produced a whole 410 Patrol bombers in 1941, up from
34 in 1940, 22 Martin Mariners (PBM), 6 Consolidated Coranados
(PB2Y) and 416 Catalinas (PBY) 1940 to 1941. The PBY had been
in production pre war, with around 200 delivered by the end of 1939.

Of course you need to remove from the totals the 41 patrol bombers
delivered in December 1941 and probably the 54 delivered in October
and November 1941 as not being available to sent to Hawaii in time.
Also noting the pre war deliveries, starting in 1936, were lower powered
versions, 1,800 to 2,000 HP versus 2,400 for the 1940 on versions

So we have around 600 patrol bombers with the necessary range built
and available to the USN and everyone else, less the attrition of normal
flying, 200 of which are needed for Pearl Harbor. Presumably then over
200 are needed for the Philippines, then comes the U-boat threat to the
US east coast plus Panama then comes the British requirement. The
British are useful, they give feedback on actual combat operations. Do
not forget aircraft for training operations as well plus the inevitable losses.

Kimmel is allowed "lack of resources" but Washington is not. Nice use
of logic.

So what's that say 600 aircraft, less around 1/2 for obsolete types, for
training and attrition, and we have 300 suitable aircraft. Pearl wants
200, the Philippines wants more, the east coast wants some, the
British want some, the training system wants more so it can up the
training rate and so on.

Pearl Harbor was given 49 aircraft, enough to continuously cover an
arc of 90 degrees according to Professor Gannon, or the approaches
from the Japanese mandated islands. How many were actually flying
such searches on the 5th, 6th and 7th?

Gone looking for this evidence? Just jump to conspiracy theory, instead
of something like they decided it looked like the Navy was being kind to
its own.

Deleted text,

"Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen."

On claims the inquiries were rigged,

"I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair."

Ah yes the movie Pearl Harbor is your guide to US intelligence
actions in 1941, but wait, there is more, since the movie is a joke
on this point the need is to imply the British did it. Just ignore the
way the British had more pressing matters on their hands, that
the US was leading the way against Japanese diplomatic traffic
and the British and US were sharing IJN code recovery work.
So what one knew the other did as well.

Yes folks, Kimmel was where he should be, no matter where you
go, there you are.

Note by the way the attempt to paint the inquiry as the absolutely right
result, despite claiming not to have seen the evidence presented to it.
The USN is the straight organisation, despite the fact it would have
been doing the decoding of those wonder messages, it is the one
that holds the "truth", everything else is wrong. The conspiracy does
not apply to the naval inquiry, it could never have been rigged of
course, it has the "right" result, so everything else was rigged.

What did the inquiry clear Kimmel of, dereliction of duty, lack of
judgement?

Standard conspiracy stuff, the right answer is out there, somewhere,
pick your preferred outcome.

Previously before the next text was another standard claim about
conspiracies, as usual the claim has to be deleted and the subject changed.

I like this, especially since I posted text showing how the War Warning
messages were the same around the Pacific. And MacArthur certainly
did not lose more men and equipment that the people in Hawaii in the
opening day of the war.

What I really like is the duck, unable to answer the text, so change the
subject.

"By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to
enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in."

Try and read history, it provides answers like, 1) too far away to know
exactly what was going on, 2) MacArthur controlling much of the
information flow, 3) The low expectations about holding the Philippines,
4) The reality moving against MacArthur would provoke a reaction in
Washington, being seen as an attempt by FDR to rid himself of an
unwanted General.

Deleted text,

It would be nice to know the source of the claimed Kimmel words, it
seems his lifetime's output is being searched for any claim he made,
no proof offered.

Remarkable line being run, the US is the source of all evil but the US
is so good, so amazing, it cannot be defeated, only betrayed from
within. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees
and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ended up.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

In the early 1990s the U. S. Navy transferred all its cryptologic
archives from Crane, Indiana to the National Archives in
Washington. This includes 26,581 JN-25 intercepts from 1
September to 7 December. All of these are available for public
review.

You forgat to mention:
EXCEPT those withdrawn documents
(Because of NSA notices of course)
Stephen Budiansky, using the original USN designation
AN for what was later called JN-25B.

You forgat to mention his NSA ties.

book "A" (hence the classification of the code in use in 1941 as
JN-25 "B") is simply ignored by Stinnett. When challenged about
this on his web site he simply failed to respond, except to complain
about spelling errors and insist

In the Archieve II records Safford asserts that US was reading 90% of JN25b
prior to Dec.7.
According routing designator Nov.16 Lietwiler letter was also seen by Safford .
But Safford did not say anything to Congressional investigators about his
assertion or Lirtwiler letter.

Of Course US congress was only allowed to investigate blinfolded,
They were allowed to investigate Pearl Harbor but only by using hand picked
documents.
It happens only in Washington.