For Keith Willshaw...

In article ,
on 14 Jun 2004 05:28:55 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

The words of a man that failed in his duty and would not admit it.

Why, when Adm Halsey sailed earlier that week and informed Adm Kimmel that
he intended to shoot down or sink any Japanese ships or aircraft he might
encounter on his way to and from Wake Is.
Did Adm Halsey have intel that his boss did not posses ?
No, Adm Halsey could see the signs, that Adm Kimmel refused to see them and
to head those warnings he recieved only reinforce the Navies decision to
fire

Read the transcripts of the one of the congressional meetings.(I posted the
link)

I have read them, apparently in greater detail than you have.
Can you answer why Adm. Halsey informed his boss, Adm Kimmel of his
intentions on sailing from PH the week prior to 7 December ?



According to current knowledge it is without any doubt clear that that
Washington withhold the information they knew from Hawaii.

No, there isn't.


There is a general agreement here.differences start after this point according
to government or researchers backing gov't view there is no conspiracy here
only honest mistakes,officials did not realize the importance of deciphered
messages.

No, there isn't.

Thats a big lie officials who made honest mistakes do try to hide the existence
of phone conversation with British PM lust before Pearl Harbor attack.
Truth is not only US had prior knowledge of Pearl Harbor attack but also
British.

But what about the Dutch ?
Did they know ?



--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

I have read them, apparently in greater detail than you have.
Can you answer why Adm. Halsey informed his boss, Adm Kimmel of his
intentions on sailing from PH the week prior to 7 December ?

Actualy Kimmel sent 46 warships to open sea to the safety in late November
without notifying Washington.
When White house learned of Kimmels move Washington ordered all ships to return
to the base.
Battleships and their crews were expendable and their intended role was playing
sitting ducks.
For much more information please check out:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/20...no12_facts.htm

But what about the Dutch ?
Did they know ?

Yes.They knew too,check out the above link

No, there isn't.


The current official position of US gov't is as follows:
"Historical records do not establish convincingly that President
Roosevelt,Gen.Marshall and others in Washington "deliberately" witheld
information from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short as part of a plan or conspitacy to
expose Pearl Harbor to attack in order to thrust America into the war".

This diplomatic wording says in plain English:Yes information were witheld from
them ,but not deliberately.

This the limit that ANY government in this world could accept.
As you probably know if government,any government,accepts killing of its own
sailors and soldiers for political goals,members of any gov't might face firing
squad.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...

The current official position of US gov't is as follows:
"Historical records do not establish convincingly that President
Roosevelt,Gen.Marshall and others in Washington "deliberately" witheld
information from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short as part of a plan or conspitacy
to
expose Pearl Harbor to attack in order to thrust America into the war".

This diplomatic wording says in plain English:Yes information were witheld
from
them ,but not deliberately.

English is your second language, isn't it.

Poor Den, still making stuff up.

English is your second language, isn't it.

Poor Den, still making stuff up.


I think everbody who can read government statement can understant its meaning
easily,illiterates different story of course.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
English is your second language, isn't it.

Poor Den, still making stuff up.


I think everbody who can read government statement can understant its
meaning
easily,illiterates different story of course.

Yes, but you keep pretending that you can read them.

"L'acrobat" wrote in message
...

"Denyav" wrote in message
...

The current official position of US gov't is as follows:
"Historical records do not establish convincingly that President
Roosevelt,Gen.Marshall and others in Washington "deliberately" witheld
information from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short as part of a plan or
conspitacy
to
expose Pearl Harbor to attack in order to thrust America into the war".

This diplomatic wording says in plain English:Yes information were
witheld
from
them ,but not deliberately.

English is your second language, isn't it.

Poor Den, still making stuff up.

Consider, the diplomatic warning wasn't in English, plain or otherwise.

In article ,
on 15 Jun 2004 05:18:39 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....


Actualy Kimmel sent 46 warships to open sea to the safety in late November
without notifying Washington.
When White house learned of Kimmels move Washington ordered all ships to return
to the base.
Battleships and their crews were expendable and their intended role was playing
sitting ducks.
For much more information please check out:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/20...no12_facts.htm

Your "source" returns document not found.
And I'm not talking about normal training sorties. I'm talking about the
mission to ferry a USMC fighter squadron to Wake.

And the fact that Adm Halsey, with all the same information that Adm Kimmel
had stated he intended to shoot down any Japanese aircraft he encountered
and sink any IJN ships that he might find.

Care to explain why he drew different conclusions from teh same info his
boss had ?





--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

And the fact that Adm Halsey, with all the same information that Adm Kimmel
had stated he intended to shoot down any Japanese aircraft he encountered
and sink any IJN ships that he might find.

Actually Kimmel acted before Halsey and sent 46 ships to open sea without
notifying WAshington in late Nov.

Who countermanded Kimmel's orders and ordered Fleet to return to the base?
Washington (Stark)

Halsey issued his plans AFTER Washington ordered the Fleet back to Pearl Harbor
(His Carriers were part of 46 ship Grand Exercise) as a 25-ship scaled down
version of Kimmels original plan.

But even Halseys scaled down exercise plan was too much for the
Washington,They ordered Halsey to use his carriers to transport planes to Wake
and Midway.
Order came again from Stark.

Why Washington countermanded Kimmels orders and ordered 46-ship fleet to return
to Pearl Harbor as Japanase Task was steaming towards Hawaii?

1)Japanase might abort their mission if they knew US was prepared and waiting
for them.
(That would mean a total failure of McCollum plan)

2)Even if they'd not aborted the mission,PSYOP value of a naval engagement at
open sea would be much less than Pearl Harbor.
Washington knew that if two fleets met at sea and engaged each other there
always might be questions about who attacked first.
(Limited success for McCollum plan,US probably would enter WWII but probably
not so united without shock and awe effect of Pearl Harbor)

Washington had no interest in deterring Japanase or stopping them before they
dropped bombs over HAwaii.

On contrary,Washington wanted to make Task Forces journey between Nov,26 and
Dec,7 as comfortable and easy as possible.
To make it happen they even tried to create a shipping-free zone,so that the
Task force could steam toward Hawaii without worrying about sightings.

In article ,
on 20 Jun 2004 05:19:53 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

And the fact that Adm Halsey, with all the same information that Adm Kimmel
had stated he intended to shoot down any Japanese aircraft he encountered
and sink any IJN ships that he might find.

Actually Kimmel acted before Halsey and sent 46 ships to open sea without
notifying WAshington in late Nov.

Who countermanded Kimmel's orders and ordered Fleet to return to the base?
Washington (Stark)

Did he ?
Document it please.



Halsey issued his plans AFTER Washington ordered the Fleet back to Pearl Harbor
(His Carriers were part of 46 ship Grand Exercise) as a 25-ship scaled down
version of Kimmels original plan.

But even Halseys scaled down exercise plan was too much for the
Washington,They ordered Halsey to use his carriers to transport planes to Wake
and Midway.

And Adm Halsey stated his intentions, based on the same intel his boss had.
And his boss had no objection.


Order came again from Stark.

Why Washington countermanded Kimmels orders and ordered 46-ship fleet to return
to Pearl Harbor as Japanase Task was steaming towards Hawaii?

When did this "fleet" sail ? And to where was this fleet headed ?


1)Japanase might abort their mission if they knew US was prepared and waiting
for them.
(That would mean a total failure of McCollum plan)

How would the IJN find out ?


2)Even if they'd not aborted the mission,PSYOP value of a naval engagement at
open sea would be much less than Pearl Harbor.
Washington knew that if two fleets met at sea and engaged each other there
always might be questions about who attacked first.
(Limited success for McCollum plan,US probably would enter WWII but probably
not so united without shock and awe effect of Pearl Harbor)

You do know that USN ships had already been attacked at open sea ?



Washington had no interest in deterring Japanase or stopping them before they
dropped bombs over HAwaii.

Your opinon.


On contrary,Washington wanted to make Task Forces journey between Nov,26 and
Dec,7 as comfortable and easy as possible.
To make it happen they even tried to create a shipping-free zone,so that the
Task force could steam toward Hawaii without worrying about sightings.

How did they create this shipping free zone ?


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.