Buying a glider, advice on type and prices

On Wednesday, 31 August 2016 22:30:07 UTC+1, Paul T wrote:
OK think you said your in the Northern UK so my advice with the
money and the experience you have and if your looking to sell the ship
at some point and not lose money is to buy a good LS4a, LS8-18
(probably best option if you have around £40-45k to spend) or Discus..
Make sure they have good gel coats and ancillary equipment.

But best talk to your CFI your skill level and what he might think an
appropriate ship - maybe get some time in a high performance two
seater i.e. Duo Discus/DG1000 first.

In the UK you will find it harder to resell an ASW24, ASW27, ASW28,
SZD55, Pegase, Lak 17 or Ventus A/B/C than the above. ASW20's are
getting long in the tooth.

Ignore Americans who don't read threads entirely - there are lots on
here that will give well meaning but crap advice for the UK scene.

Thanks again everyone for keeping the discussion going, I'm learning a lot.
We don't have many high performance gliders at our site and few pilots seem to go cross country.
Have started visiting other clubs to fly different types with flaps etc. Also helping more to rig and see how easy or difficult they are.
Definitely keeping away from older types, gell coat problems, poor spares and heavy wings. I've built and maintained aircraft for years but no longer have the facilities, patience and time on my side to be repairing. I just want to fly as much as possible.

Essential that it is light and easy one man rig due to my age and lack of assistance most days.
In current production or easy to obtain spares.
Yes I would like it to have a good resale value if possible.
Discus, Discus 2 and LS8 keep popping up.
Not sure why a difference of opinion on the ASW27 and ASW28 otherwise these would be on the short list too. I thought they would be good machines and hold the price well?
SZD55 may not hold price so well but much cheaper to buy initially?
Semi-aerobatic would be a bonus, just the odd loop and chandelle on poor soaring days. (we get a lots of them!)
I'm not really in to competitions.

OK, My two cents..

Just get a one man rigger, and you won't ever have to lift the wing
roots any more. I have used one for the last 20+ years, and they
work great. The bonus is that you don't have to trust some non-
glider person from the general public to not drop a wing when you
don't have any savvy glider types around. You can even land after
everyone else has left the field, and de-rig by yourself.

I am also 6'2" tall and 205 Lbs. Until I got my Discus-2b in 1999,
I had never been really comfortable in almost all prior types I had
flown. I was always worried that I was either going to put my head
through the canopy on an off field landing, or my head was stuck so
far back (almost behind the canopy) that I had to use glare shield
mirrors in order to see other gliders behind my wing line in a
thermal. (positively dangerous at a WGC level with 50+ other
aggressively flown gliders in the same thermal with you)

I was amazed when I sat in the prototype D-2b at the factory. Tilo
and Biggo just had big smiles on their faces, and said "We finally
designed a cockpit where everyone can be comfortable." I couldn't
believe it when I put a normal chute on, left the seat back in place,
sat in the seat, had my legs flat on the floor, and had to pull the
rudder pedals back 2 notches. I have done a fair amount of contest
flying, and most of my competitors had always had a comfort
advantage over me before the D-2b. Not any more.. My D-2b is
now 17 years old (with no spar waves), and it still goes with the
best and the newest Standard Class that are out there today. Oh,
the handling also happens to be superb, and the control hook-ups
are automatic. Yes, the newer gliders are more expensive, but in
this case, I definitely got what I paid for, and it has been well worth
it for me....

Good luck..

RO




Thanks again everyone for keeping the discussion going, I'm
learning a lot.
We don't have many high performance gliders at our site and few
pilots
seem=
to go cross country.
Have started visiting other clubs to fly different types with flaps
etc.
Al=
so helping more to rig and see how easy or difficult they are.
Definitely keeping away from older types, gell coat problems, poor
spares
a=
nd heavy wings. I've built and maintained aircraft for years but no
longer
=
have the facilities, patience and time on my side to be repairing. I
just
w=
ant to fly as much as possible.

Essential that it is light and easy one man rig due to my age and
lack of
a=
ssistance most days.
In current production or easy to obtain spares.
Yes I would like it to have a good resale value if possible.
Discus, Discus 2 and LS8 keep popping up.
Not sure why a difference of opinion on the ASW27 and ASW28
otherwise
these=
would be on the short list too. I thought they would be good
machines and
=
hold the price well?
SZD55 may not hold price so well but much cheaper to buy
initially?
Semi-aerobatic would be a bonus, just the odd loop and chandelle
on poor
so=
aring days. (we get a lots of them!)
I'm not really in to competitions.

In my view the glider market worldwide is quite sophisticated. If one type tends to be cheaper than others then it is for one or more of a variety of good reasons. I would always buy a good example of a well valued glider and would then be sure of having a glider without drawbacks and that was easy to sell.

The glider market is sophisticated, true. But that doesn't mean it's immune to fads, rumors, and conventional wisdom.

"Easy to sell" has several dimensions. At the right price, any glider can be sold. But there are more potential buyers for a type that's in greater demand (hence, a higher price). What you want is a below-market price on a popular glider. Good luck.

In the meantime, I feel about my ASW 24 like Mike Opitz does about his Discus 2, and I've owned mine for 24 years. The gel coat is showing its age now (though not terribly so) but it still goes with the rest of the Standard Class, is a delight to fly, has Gerhard Waibel's safety cockpit (why I bought it instead of the more popular first-generation Discus at the time), has not suffered the spar waves of some later Schleicher models, is easy to solo rig with the right equipment (I've been solo rigging since 1982), and is comfortable for my 6'3" (1.9m) frame, albeit with a few tweaks from the factory.

But because the initial version didn't have winglets, "everyone knows the '24 doesn't climb well." This was not helped by Schleicher's clever marketing for the ASW 28, which purported to "fix" the problem. In reality, the '24 climbs great with the right winglets. Mine are from Hank Nixon here in the U.S., which are now approved by Schleicher, as I understand it, but there are others.

But...when the time comes to sell it, there will be fewer potential buyers. It's the same challenge I faced when I sold my well-maintained, competition profiled/tuned LS-3. Everyone wanted an ASW 20. The performance was identical but the '20 was (is) almost a "cult" glider in the U.S. And a new buyer (the logical candidate for, at that time, a 13-year-old glider) was more interested in keeping up with his/her buddies, and not just in climb and glide.

Here's an off-the-wall idea. Decent performance, easy to fly, light weight, durable gel coat, large owner group, much lower investment than even a generation-old Standard Class ship: has anyone suggested a Libelle 201? I know Glasflugel has been out of business for decades (most of these gliders are 40 years old) but spares are available from Streifeneder. I flew one for years, including in our first 15M Nationals, and loved every minute of it. Many in the U.S. came in the Eberle "clamshell" trailers that made rigging a trivial task.

Chip Bearden

Long time listener, first time caller...

Looks like I'm in the same situation as John 37. I'm returning to the sport after many years (since about 2000) and kind of wondering which ship to buy. I owned a Libelle 201 previously and put about 450hr on her. The obvious choices are something like a Discus, ASW-24, or an LS. I really don't have a limit on how much I can spend, but a $50K-$60K (US) budget seems reasonable. Except for casual club racing, I have no desire whatsoever to race (20+ years sailboat racing, I done), so having the latest and greatest ship really isn't a huge priority. I'll being using the plane just for X-counrty and pleasure flying in the western US (California/Nevada) and I'll probably fly about 50hr/year.

So other then the obvious choices, I'm a little curious about the LAK and the HpH ships, which really were not around when I left the sport. Anyone care to tell me the pros/cons of buying a LAK or HpH or other? How would you spend $50K-$60K if you were looking to buy?

On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 6:43:30 PM UTC-6, bobanja wrote:
Long time listener, first time caller...

Looks like I'm in the same situation as John 37. I'm returning to the
sport after many years (since about 2000) and kind of wondering which
ship to buy. I owned a Libelle 201 previously and put about 450hr on
her. The obvious choices are something like a Discus, ASW-24, or an LS.
I really don't have a limit on how much I can spend, but a $50K-$60K
(US) budget seems reasonable. Except for casual club racing, I have no
desire whatsoever to race (20+ years sailboat racing, I done), so having
the latest and greatest ship really isn't a huge priority. I'll being
using the plane just for X-counrty and pleasure flying in the western US
(California/Nevada) and I'll probably fly about 50hr/year.

So other then the obvious choices, I'm a little curious about the LAK
and the HpH ships, which really were not around when I left the sport.
Anyone care to tell me the pros/cons of buying a LAK or HpH or other?
How would you spend $50K-$60K if you were looking to buy?




--
bobanja

Well, I do not think you would go wrong buying a nice LAK-17A, an HPH304CZ or a DG600. They are all out there on W&W right now and depending on how they are equipped, and the shape they are in, you can probably purchase one in the $50-$70K range. I have always felt that all 3 gliders are really an excellent value for the money and they will give you fine performance for X-C flying out west. I am a big proponent of flaps, but if you really want a standard class ship, you can look at possibly a Discus 2 (it might be on the high end of your price range...), HPH 304C or an ASW24. Please remember that whatever you purchase be sure that it has a good trailer and one last thing...I strongly believe in good glider brakes, so try to buy a glider with a hydraulic brake. Flying out of airports out west, you may be landing at high altitude airports and a really good hydraulic brake might pay for itself someday....Good luck - Renny

On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 7:00:56 PM UTC-7, Renny wrote:
On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 6:43:30 PM UTC-6, bobanja wrote:
Long time listener, first time caller...

Looks like I'm in the same situation as John 37. I'm returning to the
sport after many years (since about 2000) and kind of wondering which
ship to buy. I owned a Libelle 201 previously and put about 450hr on
her. The obvious choices are something like a Discus, ASW-24, or an LS.
I really don't have a limit on how much I can spend, but a $50K-$60K
(US) budget seems reasonable. Except for casual club racing, I have no
desire whatsoever to race (20+ years sailboat racing, I done), so having
the latest and greatest ship really isn't a huge priority. I'll being
using the plane just for X-counrty and pleasure flying in the western US
(California/Nevada) and I'll probably fly about 50hr/year.

So other then the obvious choices, I'm a little curious about the LAK
and the HpH ships, which really were not around when I left the sport.
Anyone care to tell me the pros/cons of buying a LAK or HpH or other?
How would you spend $50K-$60K if you were looking to buy?




--
bobanja

Well, I do not think you would go wrong buying a nice LAK-17A, an HPH304CZ or a DG600. They are all out there on W&W right now and depending on how they are equipped, and the shape they are in, you can probably purchase one in the $50-$70K range. I have always felt that all 3 gliders are really an excellent value for the money and they will give you fine performance for X-C flying out west. I am a big proponent of flaps, but if you really want a standard class ship, you can look at possibly a Discus 2 (it might be on the high end of your price range...), HPH 304C or an ASW24. Please remember that whatever you purchase be sure that it has a good trailer and one last thing...I strongly believe in good glider brakes, so try to buy a glider with a hydraulic brake. Flying out of airports out west, you may be landing at high altitude airports and a really good hydraulic brake might pay for itself someday....Good luck - Renny

Make sure the trailer paperwork is in order. Neglected by more than you'd think.
Jim

On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 at 3:30:07 PM UTC-6, Paul T wrote:
OK think you said your in the Northern UK so my advice with the
money and the experience you have and if your looking to sell the ship
at some point and not lose money is to buy a good LS4a, LS8-18
(probably best option if you have around £40-45k to spend) or Discus..
Make sure they have good gel coats and ancillary equipment.

But best talk to your CFI your skill level and what he might think an
appropriate ship - maybe get some time in a high performance two
seater i.e. Duo Discus/DG1000 first.

In the UK you will find it harder to resell an ASW24, ASW27, ASW28,
SZD55, Pegase, Lak 17 or Ventus A/B/C than the above. ASW20's are
getting long in the tooth.

Ignore Americans who don't read threads entirely - there are lots on
here that will give well meaning but crap advice for the UK scene.

http://www.segelflug.de/osclass/ is definitely worth checking.

Remmy, Jim,

Thanks for the info. I'm on board with the trailer issues. There is nothing worse than having a crappy trailer. I've had several boat/plane trailers is various states of disrepair and/or various state of legality, so I'll be highly critical in my next purchase. My old Libelle trailer could only be described as "novel."

I'm not really locked into a standard class ship, so something with flaps like a ASW-20, Ventus, LAK-17A or 304CZ could be fun to learn (after the appropriate training).

At any rate, the soaring season is about over, so I'll have plenty of time over the winter to go shopping before the start of next season.

BTW: Is it me or does the sites search function completely suck?

On Tuesday, October 18, 2016 at 12:43:06 PM UTC-6, bobanja wrote:
Remmy, Jim,

Thanks for the info. I'm on board with the trailer issues. There is
nothing worse than having a crappy trailer. I've had several boat/plane
trailers is various states of disrepair and/or various state of
legality, so I'll be highly critical in my next purchase. My old Libelle
trailer could only be described as "novel."

I'm not really locked into a standard class ship, so something with
flaps like a ASW-20, Ventus, LAK-17A or 304CZ could be fun to learn
(after the appropriate training).

At any rate, the soaring season is about over, so I'll have plenty of
time over the winter to go shopping before the start of next season.

BTW: Is it me or does the sites search function completely suck?




--
bobanja

Fall and winter tend to be a good time to purchase a glider, but do not wait too long because the glider you may be interested in may be sold before you even have a chance to make an offer. Reasonably priced gliders, in good shape and with decent performance, tend to be snapped up quickly.

You really do not want to have to say that you missed out on buying a fine glider because you believed you had "plenty of time" to decide....

Finally, in addition to the LAK-17A (that I mentioned previously), do not overlook the DG-600. It's a fine ship with excellent performance and they are usually very reasonably priced.

Good luck in your glider search! Renny