Don't point RPGs at US soldiers!

From: "Kevin Brooks"


How many snipers do you know who use tracers? Smart money would instead be on
him being engaged by an overwatching element (when contact is expected,
bounding overwatch being the preferred maneuver scheme).

Yeah, I missed the tracers and watched the clip without sound the first time.
It's a SAW.

Most Army snipers use a Remington bolt action (M-24 IIRC) these days; your
"tricked up" M-14 (actually known as the M-21) has been in the decline (if it
is not completely replaced already) for years now.
Brooks

Which doesn't explain the pics of Army snipers toting the M-14 variants I
mentioned coming across the Associated Press wire feed on Iraq that is
available here on AOL. There was one of a guy covering a field after a convoy
ambush just recently with just such a rifle.
Dave

"Dav1936531" wrote in message
...
From: "Kevin Brooks"


How many snipers do you know who use tracers? Smart money would instead
be on
him being engaged by an overwatching element (when contact is expected,
bounding overwatch being the preferred maneuver scheme).

Yeah, I missed the tracers and watched the clip without sound the first
time.
It's a SAW.

Most Army snipers use a Remington bolt action (M-24 IIRC) these days;
your
"tricked up" M-14 (actually known as the M-21) has been in the decline (if
it
is not completely replaced already) for years now.
Brooks

Which doesn't explain the pics of Army snipers toting the M-14 variants I
mentioned coming across the Associated Press wire feed on Iraq that is
available here on AOL. There was one of a guy covering a field after a
convoy
ambush just recently with just such a rifle.

There was talk of providing the old M-21's down to the unit level for use by
"designated marksmen", IIRC, as they were replaced in the sniper role by the
M-24; I can remember a time when the standard weapons package for our
MSCA-CD (Military Support to Civil Authorities--Civil Disturbance) mission
included a couple of M-21's (along with a few 12 ga pump shotguns) in a
similar role. That may explain where you saw them--then again, are you sure
you were not seeing a SEAL or two (ISTR they sometimes carry the M-14 in
desert operations), and not Army folks?

Brooks

Dave

From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 6/18/04 8:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

There was talk of providing the old M-21's down to the unit level for use by
"designated marksmen", IIRC, as they were replaced in the sniper role by the
M-24; I can remember a time when the standard weapons package for our MSCA-CD
(Military Support to Civil Authorities--Civil Disturbance) mission included a
couple of M-21's (along with a few 12 ga pump shotguns) in a similar role. That
may explain where you saw them--then again, are you sure you were not seeing a
SEAL or two (ISTR they sometimes carry the M-14 in desert operations), and not
Army folks?
Brooks

The guy in the pic was definitely Army. It was one of a series of pics showing
an Army unit's response to a convoy ambush. The guy in possesion was prone on
the side of a ditch covering any enemy advance from a field next to the road
where the convoy was ambushed. Couldn't tell you if the rifle was an M-14,
M-21, or M-24 though as I am not that familiar with the differences, but it had
that basic design of the M-14 (box mag semi-auto) and was equiped with a
telescopic sight and bipod.
Dave

"Dav1936531" wrote in message
...
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 6/18/04 8:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

There was talk of providing the old M-21's down to the unit level for use
by
"designated marksmen", IIRC, as they were replaced in the sniper role by
the
M-24; I can remember a time when the standard weapons package for our
MSCA-CD
(Military Support to Civil Authorities--Civil Disturbance) mission
included a
couple of M-21's (along with a few 12 ga pump shotguns) in a similar role.
That
may explain where you saw them--then again, are you sure you were not
seeing a
SEAL or two (ISTR they sometimes carry the M-14 in desert operations), and
not
Army folks?
Brooks

The guy in the pic was definitely Army. It was one of a series of pics
showing
an Army unit's response to a convoy ambush. The guy in possesion was prone
on
the side of a ditch covering any enemy advance from a field next to the
road
where the convoy was ambushed. Couldn't tell you if the rifle was an M-14,
M-21, or M-24 though as I am not that familiar with the differences, but
it had
that basic design of the M-14 (box mag semi-auto) and was equiped with a
telescopic sight and bipod.

Up until you mentioned the bipod, you had me thinking M-21. But I don't
recall seeing any bipods being used with M-21's (and I seriously doubt any
of the ones that were at one *distant* time available for M-14's are still
around). I guess it could be an M-21 with a bipod, but I have never seen one
so equipped (note that the M-24 bolt action replacment does have a bipod
included in the kit). OTOH, are you sure you were maybe not gettting a
squirrely view of a M-249 (which does indeed have a bipod) with a 30-round
magazine in place of the usual drum mag? I am having a problem getting
around the whole sniper-with-M21 thing; I had a sniper-type attend a school
with me way back in 1995-96, and I can rememeber his telling me they had
already replaced the M-21 with the M-24 in his ARNG light infantry battalion
(and it was not an "enhanced brigade" unit, either, so their priority of
fill would have been about the same as the rest of the Guard units).

Brooks

Dave

From: "Kevin Brooks"


Up until you mentioned the bipod, you had me thinking M-21. But I don't recall
seeing any bipods being used with M-21's (and I seriously doubt any of the ones
that were at one *distant* time available for M-14's are still around). I guess
it could be an M-21 with a bipod, but I have never seen one so equipped (note
that the M-24 bolt action replacment does have a bipod included in the kit).
OTOH, are you sure you were maybe not gettting a squirrely view of a M-249
(which does indeed have a bipod) with a 30-round magazine in place of the usual
drum mag? I am having a problem getting around the whole sniper-with-M21 thing;
I had a sniper-type attend a school with me way back in 1995-96, and I can
rememeber his telling me they had already replaced the M-21 with the M-24 in
his ARNG light infantry battalion (and it was not an "enhanced brigade" unit,
either, so their priority of fill would have been about the same as the rest of
the Guard units).
Brooks

The pic was on the AP wire feed from Iraq here on AOL. Unfortunately, the
articles and pics expire after a given period of time and disappear from the
feed so I cannot now call the picture back up and rellok at it.

The guy definitely had some variant of the M-14. I have wanted one of these for
a long time and recognize it. It was not a bolt action. It was not an M-249.

I could have incorrectly recalled that his rifle was equiped with a bipod
though. But it certainly was some type of the basic M-14 and had a telescope,
and I seem to recall a bipod.....but I saw the pic probably a month and a half
or so ago, and my memory isn't what it used to be.
Dave

"Dav1936531" wrote in message
...
From: "Kevin Brooks"


Up until you mentioned the bipod, you had me thinking M-21. But I don't
recall
seeing any bipods being used with M-21's (and I seriously doubt any of the
ones
that were at one *distant* time available for M-14's are still around). I
guess
it could be an M-21 with a bipod, but I have never seen one so equipped
(note
that the M-24 bolt action replacment does have a bipod included in the
kit).
OTOH, are you sure you were maybe not gettting a squirrely view of a M-249
(which does indeed have a bipod) with a 30-round magazine in place of the
usual
drum mag? I am having a problem getting around the whole sniper-with-M21
thing;
I had a sniper-type attend a school with me way back in 1995-96, and I can
rememeber his telling me they had already replaced the M-21 with the M-24
in
his ARNG light infantry battalion (and it was not an "enhanced brigade"
unit,
either, so their priority of fill would have been about the same as the
rest of
the Guard units).
Brooks

The pic was on the AP wire feed from Iraq here on AOL. Unfortunately, the
articles and pics expire after a given period of time and disappear from
the
feed so I cannot now call the picture back up and rellok at it.

The guy definitely had some variant of the M-14. I have wanted one of
these for
a long time and recognize it. It was not a bolt action. It was not an
M-249.

I could have incorrectly recalled that his rifle was equiped with a bipod
though. But it certainly was some type of the basic M-14 and had a
telescope,
and I seem to recall a bipod.....but I saw the pic probably a month and a
half
or so ago, and my memory isn't what it used to be.
Dave

I know I posted on this before, but I'll repeat incase it got sucked
up in to the great bit bucket in the sky. Yes, at the very minimum
I can guaranty that one NYAG unit currently attached to the 1st ID
in Iraq have M-14s as issued equipment. They are issued to unit
"Marksmen" in addition to which ever flavor of M-16 / M-4 that
infantryman is issued. Marksmen are not rated snipers but provide
a bit of precision in a spray & pray world.

"John Keeney" wrote in message
...

"Dav1936531" wrote in message
...
From: "Kevin Brooks"


Up until you mentioned the bipod, you had me thinking M-21. But I don't
recall
seeing any bipods being used with M-21's (and I seriously doubt any of
the
ones
that were at one *distant* time available for M-14's are still around).
I
guess
it could be an M-21 with a bipod, but I have never seen one so equipped
(note
that the M-24 bolt action replacment does have a bipod included in the
kit).
OTOH, are you sure you were maybe not gettting a squirrely view of a
M-249
(which does indeed have a bipod) with a 30-round magazine in place of
the
usual
drum mag? I am having a problem getting around the whole sniper-with-M21
thing;
I had a sniper-type attend a school with me way back in 1995-96, and I
can
rememeber his telling me they had already replaced the M-21 with the
M-24
in
his ARNG light infantry battalion (and it was not an "enhanced brigade"
unit,
either, so their priority of fill would have been about the same as the
rest of
the Guard units).
Brooks

The pic was on the AP wire feed from Iraq here on AOL. Unfortunately,
the
articles and pics expire after a given period of time and disappear from
the
feed so I cannot now call the picture back up and rellok at it.

The guy definitely had some variant of the M-14. I have wanted one of
these for
a long time and recognize it. It was not a bolt action. It was not an
M-249.

I could have incorrectly recalled that his rifle was equiped with a
bipod
though. But it certainly was some type of the basic M-14 and had a
telescope,
and I seem to recall a bipod.....but I saw the pic probably a month and
a
half
or so ago, and my memory isn't what it used to be.
Dave

I know I posted on this before, but I'll repeat incase it got sucked
up in to the great bit bucket in the sky. Yes, at the very minimum
I can guaranty that one NYAG unit currently attached to the 1st ID
in Iraq have M-14s as issued equipment. They are issued to unit
"Marksmen" in addition to which ever flavor of M-16 / M-4 that
infantryman is issued. Marksmen are not rated snipers but provide
a bit of precision in a spray & pray world.

I'd be very surprised if they are carrying M14's. The M-14 offers danged
little in terms of "precision" versus the M16A2 in the likely ironsight
range fan (the A2 is plenty accurate oput to the 300 meter range). I guess
they could have some old M-21's (which unlike the M-14 have a telescopic
sight)--but which combat unit of the NYARNG is attached to the 1st ID? ISTR
that the NYARNG 42nd ID(M) HQ is indeed deploying to Iraq later this year
(or early next year?).

Brooks

(Dav1936531) wrote:

Which doesn't explain the pics of Army snipers toting the M-14 variants I
mentioned coming across the Associated Press wire feed on Iraq that is
available here on AOL. There was one of a guy covering a field after a convoy
ambush just recently with just such a rifle.

It's a favorite for some all right. Too bad Clinton gave away to Bosnia and
sold to Taiwan for $56 each, 125,000 M14s. After all, he cut the size of the
military so drastically, who would need them? Next thing you know we are in a
dessert war and need that extra thousand foot-pounds at 800 yards. They like to
buck but you can learn to hold them down for a fast follow-up. (Nobody uses
full auto except a kid I saw in Burma who carried it with a rope sling over his
head and shoulders. He ripped em off into the trees for the news cameras.)

-- Charlie Springer

On 19 Jun 2004 06:04:01 GMT, (Regnirps) wrote:

(Dav1936531) wrote:

Which doesn't explain the pics of Army snipers toting the M-14 variants I
mentioned coming across the Associated Press wire feed on Iraq that is
available here on AOL. There was one of a guy covering a field after a convoy
ambush just recently with just such a rifle.

It's a favorite for some all right. Too bad Clinton gave away to Bosnia and
sold to Taiwan for $56 each, 125,000 M14s. After all, he cut the size of the
military so drastically, who would need them?

Well no, they were already surplus after Bush 41's cuts (which were
larger than Clinton's), and most were darn near worn out after 30
years use - check out how much the Phillipinos had to pay to get
theirs up to scratch.

Peter Kemp

"Peter Kemp" wrote in message
...
On 19 Jun 2004 06:04:01 GMT, (Regnirps) wrote:

(Dav1936531) wrote:

Which doesn't explain the pics of Army snipers toting the M-14 variants
I
mentioned coming across the Associated Press wire feed on Iraq that is
available here on AOL. There was one of a guy covering a field after a
convoy
ambush just recently with just such a rifle.

It's a favorite for some all right. Too bad Clinton gave away to Bosnia
and
sold to Taiwan for $56 each, 125,000 M14s. After all, he cut the size of
the
military so drastically, who would need them?

Well no, they were already surplus after Bush 41's cuts (which were
larger than Clinton's), and most were darn near worn out after 30
years use - check out how much the Phillipinos had to pay to get
theirs up to scratch.

Can you show what major use of the M-14 went on for thirty years in the US
military? The vast majority of M-14's have spent the greatest part of their
lives in long-term storage, and the weapon had a very short service life as
the primary weapon for troops. Some were rebuilt as M-21's, some have been
used by various SOF elements, and IIRC the USN has used some in the
shipboard defense role. But most have languished in cosmoline (other than
the relative few issued to support military schools, such as West Point,
VMI, the Citadel, etc.; and based upon personal experience with a few of
those, I can vouch for the fact that those examples are *very* well
maintained--doing a week's barracks confinement for "RoR" (rust-on-rifle)
was never *my* idea of a fun time during that period of my life... :-)

Brooks


Peter Kemp