US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

I thought you wanted world-style racing. That involves 1/3 - 2/3 assigned tasks, typically longer than US tasks, and the rest turn area tasks. There are lots more landouts at worlds.

I didn't realize that now you want short assigned tasks where everyone gets home, not the real world experience.

And again and again and again... CDs can call all the assigned tasks they want. If that's all you want it's in the rules now.

John Cochrane

BB,

Thank you for all that you have done for soaring. John you are a winner in my book for even making it into the world championships.

Do you think you could had a better chance of winning the world championships if you had been practicing under the standard fai rules? Or at least had a higher score? How difficult was it to change gears from one set of rules to the other?

Respectfully,
MJ

Rules were not such a big deal. Tactics were enormous, and both my biggest failures and greatest learning experience. In weak weather the gaggle tactics are everything. It doesn't require just flying under their rules. You have to fly really big contests, and fly with them. You have to anticipate what the other gliders will do, and where the gaggle will form. Who was to know that the upwind end of the start line at 5000' was the wrong place to be, and the downwind end at 2500' was the right place to be? (Because that's where the germans and french were, hence the gaggle formed there, left form there and hung together through abysmal weak first leg).

Yes, if the US had a vibrant contest scene with 65 gliders in each nationals class, all flying exactly under IGC rules, with long long tasks, lots of landouts, lots of foreigners coming to fly so we see how they fly and learn to anticipate their moves, we would do better at worlds, and I would have done a lot better at worlds.

Just passing "use IGC rules" for every contest in the US will not make that happen. Most of our nationals classes struggle to attract 15-20 pilots. Those pilots don't aggressively fly gaggles even if they are flying AT. If we fly contests so you absolutely must have a crew or a motor, half of the pilots including me will not show up. The crowd who now flies OLC will absolutely not show up. 6 pilots flying together under IGC rules is worse training than 25 pilots flying under US rules. 50 pilots flying under US rules is even better. A huge difference at worlds is just the size of the thing. When there are 15 contenders it's a lot different than when there are three. When the sky is full of gliders you get a lot more practice at gaggle flying than when there are only a few of you, and who cares about the scoring formula.

The right answer are specialized contests and events in the US run to train for world events. The US team is making that happen. The grand prix are making that happen.

We have the assigned task. We have the turn area task. Nationals call maybe one MAT per contest. Tasking is really not an issue. The only difference between US and IGC rules is a slightly more complex scoring formula under IGC rules. The big difference is the size and competitiveness of the contests.. No change in rules, especially one that makes it harder to attend, is going to fix that

John Cochrane

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 9:35:31 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
Rules were not such a big deal. Tactics were enormous, and both my biggest failures and greatest learning experience. In weak weather the gaggle tactics are everything. It doesn't require just flying under their rules. You have to fly really big contests, and fly with them. You have to anticipate what the other gliders will do, and where the gaggle will form. Who was to know that the upwind end of the start line at 5000' was the wrong place to be, and the downwind end at 2500' was the right place to be? (Because that's where the germans and french were, hence the gaggle formed there, left form there and hung together through abysmal weak first leg).

Yes, if the US had a vibrant contest scene with 65 gliders in each nationals class, all flying exactly under IGC rules, with long long tasks, lots of landouts, lots of foreigners coming to fly so we see how they fly and learn to anticipate their moves, we would do better at worlds, and I would have done a lot better at worlds.

Just passing "use IGC rules" for every contest in the US will not make that happen. Most of our nationals classes struggle to attract 15-20 pilots. Those pilots don't aggressively fly gaggles even if they are flying AT. If we fly contests so you absolutely must have a crew or a motor, half of the pilots including me will not show up. The crowd who now flies OLC will absolutely not show up. 6 pilots flying together under IGC rules is worse training than 25 pilots flying under US rules. 50 pilots flying under US rules is even better. A huge difference at worlds is just the size of the thing. When there are 15 contenders it's a lot different than when there are three.. When the sky is full of gliders you get a lot more practice at gaggle flying than when there are only a few of you, and who cares about the scoring formula.

The right answer are specialized contests and events in the US run to train for world events. The US team is making that happen. The grand prix are making that happen.

We have the assigned task. We have the turn area task. Nationals call maybe one MAT per contest. Tasking is really not an issue. The only difference between US and IGC rules is a slightly more complex scoring formula under IGC rules. The big difference is the size and competitiveness of the contests. No change in rules, especially one that makes it harder to attend, is going to fix that

John Cochrane

Well said John, thanks! Where's the "like" button? ;-)

Craig Funston

Perhaps some of the readers here (if there are any left) aren't clear on just what the differences are between US and IGC rules.

1. Units. IGC rules specify kilometers, meters. If you're serious about practicing IGC rules, switch out your instruments. This is serious. At least one US pilot missed a podium from miles vs. km switch

2. Scoring formula. This is the big one. As the number of landouts increase, both US and international rules give more distance points and less speed points. The IGC switch is much stronger, so that by the time you have 100% landouts (including slow finishers) you are fighting for 1000 distance points.

This has major strategic implications. Depending on the number of landouts, you change from "speed mode" to "distance mode." It's what makes sticking with the gaggle, and playing start roulette even to the point of guranteed landout, more important at worlds. The reward for being the only finisher is much smaller. The penalty for being the only landout is much more severe.

One consequence is that you really need a team captain on the ground relaying landout information. Another consequence is that you land out more often and really need a crew or a motor.

The scoring formula also leads to some weirdness. It is sometimes advantageous to deliberately land out just short of the airport. Again, you need deep understanding of the rules and a captain to pull this off.

Fortunately, many at the IGC are starting to recognize that this scoring formula is behind many problems, and they might fix it. That will lead to major changes in tactics. Teams who are really good at the tactics that exploit the pathologies of the scoring formula will likely object.

3. Start and finish. These are minor, but the geometry is different. IGC has limited altitude starts with no 2 minute rule. Hence wind up inside the cloud and dive under the line works. If you don't want to do that, watch out for the other guys who do. Unlimited altitude option means getting into cloud and wave are possiblities.

The typical finish now allows speed points for a landout a few miles from the airport. This too is a technique to practice. Hmm.


4. Communication. Team flying is allowed, and ground to air communication is allowed. Right now, teams are assembling ground based flarm receivers to relay long distance information. Needless to say you need a dedicated weather person.

Pilot to pilot communication is now allowed at US regionals, and seems not to be a big issue. I don't see why we don't allow more communication at nationals.

The big difference is not in the rules. The worlds tend to call more assigned tasks than we do, and they tend to fly in more hopeless weather than we do. Like in the US, there are a lot more points to be made on the turn area task days when people go their own way. If there were demand for it, it would be easy enough to call longer assigned tasks in the rain in the US too..

European contests in general attract far larger numbers of gliders. As in last post, that's a huge difference.

Most smaller countries don't try to have nationals in every class. If we wanted a large contest experience, we should do what they do, and have national contests that mix FAI classes with water and handicaps. That option exists in both our rules and IGC rules.

Most of IGC rules are not really rules, but the details are left to local procedures. Someone has to write those.

On many issues the IGC rules are more a set of guidelines. The US rules are much more precise about times, protests, and so forth.

Yes, the IGC doesn't have MAT, but in response to much complaining the unrestricted or one turnpoint MAT is not much used in US nationals. I've had some great MAT flights, like a nearly 1000k ridge flight at Mifflin, under MAT rules.

John Cochrane BB

Again, John's statements above are simply false.

Every other soaring country, in the world, uses the FAI rules system. Other than the US and, reluctantly, Canada. Think about that. How is that possible if what John and the US "leaders" say about FAI competition is true? If what John (and the peanut gallery) say's was true, shouldn't the sport of FAI contest soaring be dead in all other countries? Perhaps FAI nations are insane? This is what John is saying essentially. Or, could it be, possibly, that we are insane?

- Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. -Albert Einstein

All other soaring countries do not all have crews (or motors) for all contest pilots. This is utter crap. An outright lie. Ridiculous. They do not all land out in contests all over the world. Nonsense. You do not need a crew or a motor to fly FAI contests. Again, I cite simple research.

These constant, ridiculous assertions from our US rules "team" is nothing more than a political "smoke and mirrors game." A religion with evangelists essentially. "You must have a motor." "You must have a crew. " "You will all land out." "The gaggles will be constant, one big spinning gaggle (with collisions falling out the bottom) consisting of Karl Streidich and 15 leeches in tow!" Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my...

This is simply not the case, and the examples are, literally, every other soaring nation in the world which holds FAI competitions. Again, think about that. It is incredible (ridiculous) to make statements which are so obviously wrong. Yet they make these statements again and again. Its delusional.

The truth is that the US rules gang (deep FAI rules haters) have wildly oversold and over-reacted to a problem that doesn't exist (except in their own minds), and now our sport has all but been ruined by it. Racing has been destroyed. We are all held hostage by this radical US rules false mindset. They are happy to double down on their false attacks against FAI and assigned tasking. It is truly incredible to watch. The US rules boys are becoming radical. They are lashing out. They are angry that I am challenging them.

FAI is a different sport because of a) tasking (90%) and b) scoring formula's (10%). FAI is about racing first. Glider racing. Just as it says on the homepage of the SSA website (falsely). The US is OLC, and racing is nearly down to zero. The US has simply departed from the sport of glider racing. The US is now, "OLC nation." Canada is too, sadly.

I say shame. Shame on multiple levels. This villianization of FAI has to stop.

In regards to SGP USA, please! The SSA has run exactly zero sanctioned contest "Grand Prix" races to date. Period. FAI SGP USA has zero to do with the SSA or with US Rules. This is why it seems to be successful. SGP USA is the exact opposite of US Rules. Again, think about that for a moment.

FAI rules would be better for the USA because the US would be on the same page as the rest of the soaring competition world. There are great benefits to playing in the same sport rather as the world rather than a participating in a sideshow experiment led by people who regularly attack FAI. Again, the rest of the soaring competition rules us FAI happily, safely and effectively. FAI is NOT the MAD MAX horror scene which John (and the peanut gallery) continually paints for us.

Plus, if we switched to FAI and stopped the annual US rules "circus," we would also stop all the costs (hard and soft) which come along with maintaining our custom US rules (like their personal playset) which provide ZERO MEASURABLE VALUE to the rest of us. The US rules circus is essentially a handful of mad scientists running around making major changes every year, banning Flarm, banning smart phones, banning ADSB, in a panic, etc. Complex, simplify, ban, unban. US rules are pure madness. US rules are a negative.

We need to stop these guys from continuing their stranglehold on our sport in the USA. Enough is enough. It's time. What do you have to lose. US rules are providing no improved metrics. Zero.

On Thursday, 27 October 2016 12:03:02 UTC-6, Sean wrote:
Again, John's statements above are simply false.

Every other soaring country, in the world, uses the FAI rules system. Other than the US and, reluctantly, Canada. Think about that. How is that possible if what John and the US "leaders" say about FAI competition is true? If what John (and the peanut gallery) say's was true, shouldn't the sport of FAI contest soaring be dead in all other countries? Perhaps FAI nations are insane? This is what John is saying essentially. Or, could it be, possibly, that we are insane?

- Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. -Albert Einstein

All other soaring countries do not all have crews (or motors) for all contest pilots. This is utter crap. An outright lie. Ridiculous. They do not all land out in contests all over the world. Nonsense. You do not need a crew or a motor to fly FAI contests. Again, I cite simple research.

These constant, ridiculous assertions from our US rules "team" is nothing more than a political "smoke and mirrors game." A religion with evangelists essentially. "You must have a motor." "You must have a crew. " "You will all land out." "The gaggles will be constant, one big spinning gaggle (with collisions falling out the bottom) consisting of Karl Streidich and 15 leeches in tow!" Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my...

This is simply not the case, and the examples are, literally, every other soaring nation in the world which holds FAI competitions. Again, think about that. It is incredible (ridiculous) to make statements which are so obviously wrong. Yet they make these statements again and again. Its delusional.

The truth is that the US rules gang (deep FAI rules haters) have wildly oversold and over-reacted to a problem that doesn't exist (except in their own minds), and now our sport has all but been ruined by it. Racing has been destroyed. We are all held hostage by this radical US rules false mindset. They are happy to double down on their false attacks against FAI and assigned tasking. It is truly incredible to watch. The US rules boys are becoming radical. They are lashing out. They are angry that I am challenging them.

FAI is a different sport because of a) tasking (90%) and b) scoring formula's (10%). FAI is about racing first. Glider racing. Just as it says on the homepage of the SSA website (falsely). The US is OLC, and racing is nearly down to zero. The US has simply departed from the sport of glider racing. The US is now, "OLC nation." Canada is too, sadly.

I say shame. Shame on multiple levels. This villianization of FAI has to stop.

In regards to SGP USA, please! The SSA has run exactly zero sanctioned contest "Grand Prix" races to date. Period. FAI SGP USA has zero to do with the SSA or with US Rules. This is why it seems to be successful. SGP USA is the exact opposite of US Rules. Again, think about that for a moment.

FAI rules would be better for the USA because the US would be on the same page as the rest of the soaring competition world. There are great benefits to playing in the same sport rather as the world rather than a participating in a sideshow experiment led by people who regularly attack FAI. Again, the rest of the soaring competition rules us FAI happily, safely and effectively. FAI is NOT the MAD MAX horror scene which John (and the peanut gallery) continually paints for us.

Plus, if we switched to FAI and stopped the annual US rules "circus," we would also stop all the costs (hard and soft) which come along with maintaining our custom US rules (like their personal playset) which provide ZERO MEASURABLE VALUE to the rest of us. The US rules circus is essentially a handful of mad scientists running around making major changes every year, banning Flarm, banning smart phones, banning ADSB, in a panic, etc. Complex, simplify, ban, unban. US rules are pure madness. US rules are a negative..

We need to stop these guys from continuing their stranglehold on our sport in the USA. Enough is enough. It's time. What do you have to lose. US rules are providing no improved metrics. Zero.

Sean, the system is rigged 8-)

I must admit that I'm having a lot of fun watching the discussion on this thread and I'd like to make a few additional points.

Neither the US nor the FAI rules mandate the proportion in which the AT and TAT (and MAT in US) tasks should be called during a contest. This is left to the the discretion of the CD. Therefore, Sean if you were a CD at US nationals, you would probably call 70% AT and 30% TAT tasks, which you could do under the current US rules. Conversely, another CD could call 100% TAT tasks with huge zones under the FAI rules.

Safety and gaggles are a totally separate issues. John has flown in the worlds and has seen how scary the gaggles can be. I have flown in three different worlds since 2008 and I know what John is talking about. Sean, with all due respect, you haven't yet had that experience, although you will soon have a chance to see it firsthand in Benalla, where 80% of the days should be blue.

The worst experience for me was in 2013 in Argentina with blue days and thermals topping out at 3000' AGL, not to mention the 30 knot wind. The gaggles were scary, especially in the CLub class where young European hot-shot pilots flew very aggressively. On the competition day 3 I lost my nerve before the start gate. While thermalling in a big gaggle, another pilot entered the thermal at high speed, flew about 10' below me and then pulled up right in front of me. I peeled off and decided to fly the rest of that task alone, so I started 15 minutes after everyone else had started. BTW, this was the 3rd or 4th close encounter I had in as many days. Needless to say, flying alone on a blue day cost me a lot because I didn't manage to finish the task. From talking to other pilots during this contest, I gathered that at least 80% of them didn't feel comfortable with the safety situation. One even gave up and went home in protest.

Now, some of the young guys seem to prefer this kind of close contact racing. They are usually less experienced, less risk averse and more eager to prove themselves. Enter the Sailplane Grand Prix, a godsend for guys who like it hot.

So, I don't really think that the current situation is so bad. Maybe what we need is more SGP events in North America for those who want to truly race and Sean has done a great job being the driving force behind this.

As for the classical style gliding contests, I am personally quite happy with how things are. Regarding the rules, I don't really think that US needs to maintain a separate set because the current FAI rules are flexible enough, other than allowing the MAT tasks (the benefits of which are debatable). If SSA focused instead on improving the FAI rules, it could make things better for everyone!

It is a bit ironic that the current IGC president is from the US (Eric Mozer). Maybe he should weigh in on this discussion.


Branko Stojkovic
XYU

No question there. It is rigged. And fortified. But I I am only getting started. This is just playtime.

John and I actually were together last Saturday night. It was a pleasant evening by the fire. We basically came to the conclusion, all things considered, that the right solution was FAI rules for Nationals and US rules for regionals. And more OLC events for beginners. I could accept that, but I would not like it. Not one bit.

I think that compromise is probably right thing considering the current situation. But it needs to happen now. I would even accept the tasking portion with the US scoring for expediancy, but what's the point of going halfway. But I still feel strongly that it is arrogant of the US to have its own rules and undermine and attack the FAI rules as they do. The misinformation is astounding. Many of these statements thrown at FAI competition is just untrue. FAI does not have more or less gaggle and/or more of less landouts. It is equally safe, statistically.

I think this quote sum's this debate up perfectly...

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." -Mark Twain

The US rules boys know for sure that FAI rules are.....insert garbage here. They have bet the farm on it. Our fearless leaders think that FAI is bad becuase racing around a fixed course will lead to nothing but land outs and gaggle's. This is their basic premise. At best it is misleading and bias. But at worst, it just aint so. And the result has been the creation of a new sport based on OLC thinking. The result is ZERO sailplane racing remains in the USA.

So this discussion has a very simple battle line. Do we want "some" real, objective racing competiton in the USA or only timed, pilot option, OLC games?

This discussion is about what worthy compitition is and is not? Hell, it is about asking outselves what is a sport? What is a game or a puzzle? We know for sure that FAI is 50% real racing and the US rules are 100% not real racing.

I often wonder, why does the FAI support the SSA as the USA's national aero-club if they attack their soaring rules and us their own, entirely different rules. Do we know how this has been allowed to get this far?

Just a note here, 2/3 of all ASG-29's made have been an engine, only a handful of these are in the US, most in Europe.

I for one gave up land outs when flying a Nimbus 4, started to plan for out landings at airports. I now fly a glider twice as expensive as the Nimbus (although only 18 meters). You are one of the few who's wife supports and is involved in gliding, many pilots, do not have crew, that is just a fact of soaring today. Perhaps FAI is looking to change their rules to match the US :0

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 11:03:02 AM UTC-7, Sean wrote:

All other soaring countries do not all have crews (or motors) for all contest pilots. This is utter crap. An outright lie.