Are 'Single 180 Turn From Downwind to Final' and 'Stall-spin on Turnfrom Base to Final' mutually exclusive?

On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have to
do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.

--
Dan, 5J

It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have to look at it and react to it).

Tom

On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 9:30:01 AM UTC+3, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have to
do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.

--
Dan, 5J

It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have to look at it and react to it).

Define "coordinated". No problem to spin with the string perfectly centered..

It's true in any glider with enough elevator, but the Blanik is excellent for demonstrating it. Shallow turn, very graaaadually slow it down, maintaining constant bank angle with aileron and keeping the string in the middle with the rudder. Pretty soon you've got a whole heap of out of turn aileron and into turn rudder. But the string is in the middle and the nose isn't even very high. And then BAM full-on incipient spin.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 00:50:56 -0800, Bruce Hoult wrote:

On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 9:30:01 AM UTC+3, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have
to do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and
University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs
rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety
Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.

--
Dan, 5J

It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a
way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying
coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would
really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach
stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent
spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination
indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination
indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have
to look at it and react to it).

Define "coordinated". No problem to spin with the string perfectly
centered.

It's true in any glider with enough elevator, but the Blanik is
excellent for demonstrating it. Shallow turn, very graaaadually slow it
down, maintaining constant bank angle with aileron and keeping the
string in the middle with the rudder. Pretty soon you've got a whole
heap of out of turn aileron and into turn rudder. But the string is in
the middle and the nose isn't even very high. And then BAM full-on
incipient spin.

Sounds like something the Puchacz would also do rather well. Must try it
during my next annual check.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 12:50:58 AM UTC-8, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 9:30:01 AM UTC+3, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have to
do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.

--
Dan, 5J

It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have to look at it and react to it).

Define "coordinated". No problem to spin with the string perfectly centered.

It's true in any glider with enough elevator, but the Blanik is excellent for demonstrating it. Shallow turn, very graaaadually slow it down, maintaining constant bank angle with aileron and keeping the string in the middle with the rudder. Pretty soon you've got a whole heap of out of turn aileron and into turn rudder. But the string is in the middle and the nose isn't even very high. And then BAM full-on incipient spin.

You just confirmed what I said: it is very HARD to spin flying coordinated (not that it can't be done). You also have to ignore your other instruments, particularly the ASI.

Tom

Bruce Hoult wrote on 11/19/2016 12:50 AM:

Define "coordinated". No problem to spin with the string perfectly
centered.

It's true in any glider with enough elevator, but the Blanik is
excellent for demonstrating it. Shallow turn, very graaaadually slow
it down, maintaining constant bank angle with aileron and keeping the
string in the middle with the rudder. Pretty soon you've got a whole
heap of out of turn aileron and into turn rudder. But the string is
in the middle and the nose isn't even very high. And then BAM full-on
incipient spin.

Bruce describes how I practice incipient spins in my ASH 26 E (also the
way I practiced them in my ASW 20 C). One moment I'm doing a smooth,
coordinated turn; an instant later, the inboard wing is rotating down -
no warning.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

On 11/22/2016 8:20 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Bruce Hoult wrote on 11/19/2016 12:50 AM:

Define "coordinated". No problem to spin with the string perfectly
centered.

It's true in any glider with enough elevator, but the Blanik is
excellent for demonstrating it. Shallow turn, very graaaadually slow
it down, maintaining constant bank angle with aileron and keeping the
string in the middle with the rudder. Pretty soon you've got a whole
heap of out of turn aileron and into turn rudder. But the string is
in the middle and the nose isn't even very high. And then BAM full-on
incipient spin.

Bruce describes how I practice incipient spins in my ASH 26 E (also the way I
practiced them in my ASW 20 C). One moment I'm doing a smooth, coordinated
turn; an instant later, the inboard wing is rotating down - no warning.

Blame this somewhat-thread-drifting post on winter finally trying to put in an
appearance in this part of the northern hemisphere...

I'm guessing what Eric's "no warning" comment means is "in the absence of a
distinct separation-induced burble," or something similar (I've not flown
either an ASW 20 or ASH 26). I'm gonna "winter-quibble" with the concept "no
warning."

My club used to have a 2-32 (eventually sold) about which the same thing was
routinely said, and in fact the ship did routinely and enthusiastically drop
the same wing before beginning a rapid rotation if not "immediately and
properly countered." If it really did catch someone out, going through at
least 90-degrees of an incipient spin, and WAY nose down before recovery - was
in your immediate future. Many club pilots of roughly equivalent time as I
then had might accurately have been described as "unduly frightened" of the ship.

But "no warning?" Surely you jest (and my name isn't Shirley). True, before
the wing "let go" there was (almost always) an absence of aerodynamic burble
felt through the stick or one's butt or merely "drummed" through the metal
fuselage, but by the time the wing did let go, "all the other usual suspects"
had put in their appearances: low wind noise; nose noticeably high; controls
(especially stick) getting sloppy; etc. Subsequent to checking out in the
ship, I found it "intellectual fun" to mess around with it in slow flight
"trying to find the burble." Abrupt departure from controlled flight - yes,
indeed! "No warning?" - not by a long shot.

Bob - a big fan of coordination AND "sufficient airspeed" - W.

Bob,

you've stated that you haven't flown an ASW20C, but still you comment on its flying characteristics, citing a 2-32 as reference?!

What a nonsense.

I have flown an ASW20C (15 m, no winglets, CoG towards the rear limit), and there is no warning _what so ever_.

Bert


Le mercredi 23 novembre 2016 06:06:50 UTC+1, Bob Whelan a écritÂ*:
On 11/22/2016 8:20 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Bruce Hoult wrote on 11/19/2016 12:50 AM:

Define "coordinated". No problem to spin with the string perfectly
centered.

It's true in any glider with enough elevator, but the Blanik is
excellent for demonstrating it. Shallow turn, very graaaadually slow
it down, maintaining constant bank angle with aileron and keeping the
string in the middle with the rudder. Pretty soon you've got a whole
heap of out of turn aileron and into turn rudder. But the string is
in the middle and the nose isn't even very high. And then BAM full-on
incipient spin.

Bruce describes how I practice incipient spins in my ASH 26 E (also the way I
practiced them in my ASW 20 C). One moment I'm doing a smooth, coordinated
turn; an instant later, the inboard wing is rotating down - no warning.

Blame this somewhat-thread-drifting post on winter finally trying to put in an
appearance in this part of the northern hemisphere...

I'm guessing what Eric's "no warning" comment means is "in the absence of a
distinct separation-induced burble," or something similar (I've not flown
either an ASW 20 or ASH 26). I'm gonna "winter-quibble" with the concept "no
warning."

My club used to have a 2-32 (eventually sold) about which the same thing was
routinely said, and in fact the ship did routinely and enthusiastically drop
the same wing before beginning a rapid rotation if not "immediately and
properly countered." If it really did catch someone out, going through at
least 90-degrees of an incipient spin, and WAY nose down before recovery - was
in your immediate future. Many club pilots of roughly equivalent time as I
then had might accurately have been described as "unduly frightened" of the ship.

But "no warning?" Surely you jest (and my name isn't Shirley). True, before
the wing "let go" there was (almost always) an absence of aerodynamic burble
felt through the stick or one's butt or merely "drummed" through the metal
fuselage, but by the time the wing did let go, "all the other usual suspects"
had put in their appearances: low wind noise; nose noticeably high; controls
(especially stick) getting sloppy; etc. Subsequent to checking out in the
ship, I found it "intellectual fun" to mess around with it in slow flight
"trying to find the burble." Abrupt departure from controlled flight - yes,
indeed! "No warning?" - not by a long shot.

Bob - a big fan of coordination AND "sufficient airspeed" - W.

On 11/23/2016 12:50 AM, Tango Whisky wrote:
Bob,

you've stated that you haven't flown an ASW20C, but still you comment on
its flying characteristics, citing a 2-32 as reference?!

What a nonsense.

I have flown an ASW20C (15 m, no winglets, CoG towards the rear limit), and
there is no warning _what so ever_.

Bert

Snip (of all but the offending post, immediately below)...

Blame this somewhat-thread-drifting post on winter finally trying to put
in an appearance in this part of the northern hemisphere...

I'm guessing what Eric's "no warning" comment means is "in the absence of
a distinct separation-induced burble," or something similar (I've not
flown either an ASW 20 or ASH 26). I'm gonna "winter-quibble" with the
concept "no warning."

My club used to have a 2-32 (eventually sold) about which the same thing
was routinely said, and in fact the ship did routinely and
enthusiastically drop the same wing before beginning a rapid rotation if
not "immediately and properly countered." If it really did catch someone
out, going through at least 90-degrees of an incipient spin, and WAY nose
down before recovery - was in your immediate future. Many club pilots of
roughly equivalent time as I then had might accurately have been
described as "unduly frightened" of the ship.

But "no warning?" Surely you jest (and my name isn't Shirley). True,
before the wing "let go" there was (almost always) an absence of
aerodynamic burble felt through the stick or one's butt or merely
"drummed" through the metal fuselage, but by the time the wing did let
go, "all the other usual suspects" had put in their appearances: low wind
noise; nose noticeably high; controls (especially stick) getting sloppy;
etc. Subsequent to checking out in the ship, I found it "intellectual
fun" to mess around with it in slow flight "trying to find the burble."
Abrupt departure from controlled flight - yes, indeed! "No warning?" -
not by a long shot.

Bob - a big fan of coordination AND "sufficient airspeed" - W.


Bert - I'm also a big fan of, "If it happens, it must be possible."

As you likely grasped, I sought not to comment upon the ASW 20C's specific
low-speed, essentially-1g, departure from controlled flight characteristics,
as on the *concept* of departing from controlled flight "in the general
vicinity of" those flight conditions...which is why I included the
experience-based provisos leading into the guts of my post.

FWIW, I've yet to encounter a glider or single-engine general aviation
airplane that has not provided *some* other clue(s) Joe PIC is in the vicinity
of the sandbox near an unintended departure from controlled flight. (N.B. I'm
also not power certified, my experience in powered planes being limited to
riding along in lots of different types, with lots of different pilots, doing
"the usual range of stuff" from stall practice to "straight-n-level" hard IFR.
Nor do I have any supersonic aircraft time. )

As always when discussing any aeronautical topic having even the slightest
hint of nuance, YMMV.

Bob W.

P.S. Apologies if some form of this post appears twice; the first attempt
seemed to have disappeared into the bit bucket without trace, despite an hour
of searching...

Bob, I've flown about 40 different types of gliders, and did voluntary spins with about half of them, wingspans ranging from 10 m to 26 m.

And the ASW20C was stunning in this respect - pulling from cruise into thermal a bit sharply, and the sky turns green although the glider just felt perfectly normal. In Germany in the mid-eighties, this behaviour did kill a couple of ASW20C pilots. Moving the CoG forward changes the behaviour to "normal".
The only other glider I came across having this behaviour was a Fox - but then, this one is designed to do exactly that.

So, there ARE gliders out there that bite without barking first.

On 11/23/2016 12:50 AM, Tango Whisky wrote:
Bob,

you've stated that you haven't flown an ASW20C, but still you comment on
its flying characteristics, citing a 2-32 as reference?!

What a nonsense.

I have flown an ASW20C (15 m, no winglets, CoG towards the rear limit), and
there is no warning _what so ever_.

Bert

Snip...
Blame this somewhat-thread-drifting post on winter finally trying to put
in an appearance in this part of the northern hemisphere...

I'm guessing what Eric's "no warning" comment means is "in the absence of
a distinct separation-induced burble," or something similar (I've not
flown either an ASW 20 or ASH 26). I'm gonna "winter-quibble" with the
concept "no warning."

My club used to have a 2-32 (eventually sold) about which the same thing
was routinely said, and in fact the ship did routinely and
enthusiastically drop the same wing before beginning a rapid rotation if
not "immediately and properly countered." If it really did catch someone
out, going through at least 90-degrees of an incipient spin, and WAY nose
down before recovery - was in your immediate future. Many club pilots of
roughly equivalent time as I then had might accurately have been
described as "unduly frightened" of the ship.

But "no warning?" Surely you jest (and my name isn't Shirley). True,
before the wing "let go" there was (almost always) an absence of
aerodynamic burble felt through the stick or one's butt or merely
"drummed" through the metal fuselage, but by the time the wing did let
go, "all the other usual suspects" had put in their appearances: low wind
noise; nose noticeably high; controls (especially stick) getting sloppy;
etc. Subsequent to checking out in the ship, I found it "intellectual
fun" to mess around with it in slow flight "trying to find the burble."
Abrupt departure from controlled flight - yes, indeed! "No warning?" -
not by a long shot.

Bob - a big fan of coordination AND "sufficient airspeed" - W.


Bert - I'm also a big fan of "If it happens, it must be possible,"...which is
why I included the "experience-based" info leading into "the rest of my post."

And as I'm sure you grasped, I was less commenting/suggesting anything about
an ASW 20C's specific flying characteristics than I was about "the general
nature" of low-speed, essentially-one-g, stalls as a PIC concept. FWIW, every
"general aviation-like" plane (glider/single-engine-piston) in which I've been
able to "play around with those types of stalls" have always presented other
cues that Joe Pilot might be on the edge of playing with fire.

As always, when discussing things of any nuance whatsoever, YMMV.

Bob W.