Are 'Single 180 Turn From Downwind to Final' and 'Stall-spin on Turnfrom Base to Final' mutually exclusive?

I did grasp that, but you might play around a bit more and learn things which will make general statements like yours look, well, not quite intelligent.

No reason for me to continue this discussion.

Bob Whelan wrote on 11/22/2016 9:06 PM:
True, before the wing "let go" there was (almost always) an absence of
aerodynamic burble felt through the stick or one's butt or merely
"drummed" through the metal fuselage, but by the time the wing did let
go, "all the other usual suspects" had put in their appearances: low
wind noise; nose noticeably high; controls (especially stick) getting
sloppy; etc. Subsequent to checking out in the ship, I found it
"intellectual fun" to mess around with it in slow flight "trying to find
the burble." Abrupt departure from controlled flight - yes, indeed! "No
warning?" - not by a long shot.

The nose was not noticeably high in either glider (20 C or 26E); the
wind noise was subdued, but both gliders were very quiet, and the change
in noise was very small; there was no burble or "butt feel"; the
controls were light but not unusually so; and the wing "departure" was
not abrupt - I simply ran out aileron, and the wing would start
downward. I'm guessing the inside wing tip doesn't stall, but can't be
sure about that.

But that scenario is with a shallow turn - 20 degree bank? - and at
30-40 degrees bank, it was harder to provoke the incipient spin. Much
harder, as I recall.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

On Saturday, November 26, 2016 at 6:50:46 AM UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Bob Whelan wrote on 11/22/2016 9:06 PM:
True, before the wing "let go" there was (almost always) an absence of
aerodynamic burble felt through the stick or one's butt or merely
"drummed" through the metal fuselage, but by the time the wing did let
go, "all the other usual suspects" had put in their appearances: low
wind noise; nose noticeably high; controls (especially stick) getting
sloppy; etc. Subsequent to checking out in the ship, I found it
"intellectual fun" to mess around with it in slow flight "trying to find
the burble." Abrupt departure from controlled flight - yes, indeed! "No
warning?" - not by a long shot.

The nose was not noticeably high in either glider (20 C or 26E); the
wind noise was subdued, but both gliders were very quiet, and the change
in noise was very small; there was no burble or "butt feel"; the
controls were light but not unusually so; and the wing "departure" was
not abrupt - I simply ran out aileron, and the wing would start
downward. I'm guessing the inside wing tip doesn't stall, but can't be
sure about that.

Stick quickly a little bit forward restored aileron authority?

Bruce Hoult wrote on 11/26/2016 12:40 AM:
On Saturday, November 26, 2016 at 6:50:46 AM UTC+3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Bob Whelan wrote on 11/22/2016 9:06 PM:
True, before the wing "let go" there was (almost always) an absence of
aerodynamic burble felt through the stick or one's butt or merely
"drummed" through the metal fuselage, but by the time the wing did let
go, "all the other usual suspects" had put in their appearances: low
wind noise; nose noticeably high; controls (especially stick) getting
sloppy; etc. Subsequent to checking out in the ship, I found it
"intellectual fun" to mess around with it in slow flight "trying to find
the burble." Abrupt departure from controlled flight - yes, indeed! "No
warning?" - not by a long shot.

The nose was not noticeably high in either glider (20 C or 26E); the
wind noise was subdued, but both gliders were very quiet, and the change
in noise was very small; there was no burble or "butt feel"; the
controls were light but not unusually so; and the wing "departure" was
not abrupt - I simply ran out aileron, and the wing would start
downward. I'm guessing the inside wing tip doesn't stall, but can't be
sure about that.

Stick quickly a little bit forward restored aileron authority?

The normal spin recovery works fine; even quicker was moving the flap
lever forward to the first negative flap position. I don't recall if
only stick forward was enough.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

My Stemme has built-in AoA indication but it's on the EFIS and I'm
looking outside during the pattern. All you really need is to be able
to recognize sloppy controls, reduced noise, and uncommanded movement of
the nose. This has been discussed to death (no pun intended). There's
no instrument that can protect you as well as training and practice and,
if you need to rely on an instrument, maybe you should be keeping
tropical fish instead of flying.

On 11/18/2016 11:29 PM, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have to
do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.
--
Dan, 5J
It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have to look at it and react to it).

Tom

--
Dan, 5J

Link to the AOPA/UND landing pattern study:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...lized-approach

There is no doubt in my mind which is the safer pattern; and it doesn't involve multiple turns at low altitude....

I hope they also look at pattern entry, since, unlike the current 45 degree entry to downwind, an initial entry to an overhead pattern (See AIM if you are unfamiliar) will automatically put you at the same downwind position EVERY

On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 9:52:04 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
My Stemme has built-in AoA indication but it's on the EFIS and I'm
looking outside during the pattern. All you really need is to be able
to recognize sloppy controls, reduced noise, and uncommanded movement of
the nose. This has been discussed to death (no pun intended). There's
no instrument that can protect you as well as training and practice and,
if you need to rely on an instrument, maybe you should be keeping
tropical fish instead of flying.

On 11/18/2016 11:29 PM, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have to
do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.
--
Dan, 5J
It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have to look at it and react to it).

Tom

--
Dan, 5J

I rely on my instruments EVERY time I fly, especially in the landing phase; don't you? Training and practice are a good thing, but they CAN'T substitute for good instruments, only teach us to use them properly. One can compensate for the loss of an instrument, like airspeed, but one would not deliberately not pay attention to a working ASI in the landing phase.

I, too, have an AOA; it is the artificial horizon in my Air Avionics (aka Butterfly) vario. I do not find it particularly helpful. I prefer to monitor the real-time wind indicator instead. I also assume that you pay attention to wind socks...

Tom

AWOS before entering pattern
Wind sock, also before entering pattern
ASI occasionally
I can't think of anything else I need to fly a pattern.

When my wife was training in a G-103, a bug plugged the pitot tube. She
had no trouble flying the pattern without an ASI.

On 11/19/2016 4:24 PM, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 9:52:04 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
My Stemme has built-in AoA indication but it's on the EFIS and I'm
looking outside during the pattern. All you really need is to be able
to recognize sloppy controls, reduced noise, and uncommanded movement of
the nose. This has been discussed to death (no pun intended). There's
no instrument that can protect you as well as training and practice and,
if you need to rely on an instrument, maybe you should be keeping
tropical fish instead of flying.

On 11/18/2016 11:29 PM, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have to
do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.
--
Dan, 5J
It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have to look at it and react to it).

Tom
--
Dan, 5J
I rely on my instruments EVERY time I fly, especially in the landing phase; don't you? Training and practice are a good thing, but they CAN'T substitute for good instruments, only teach us to use them properly. One can compensate for the loss of an instrument, like airspeed, but one would not deliberately not pay attention to a working ASI in the landing phase.

I, too, have an AOA; it is the artificial horizon in my Air Avionics (aka Butterfly) vario. I do not find it particularly helpful. I prefer to monitor the real-time wind indicator instead. I also assume that you pay attention to wind socks...

Tom

--
Dan, 5J

I pay more attention to my vario in the pattern than I do my ASI. The wind sock is probably the most important thing to be aware of when landing, everything else you can feel, hear, and see. It's very easy to miss that the wind has doubled since you took off.

Boggs

Tom,

Is the Artificial Horizon really an AoA Indicator? If you hold a true nose-on-the-horizon in a glider, it will slow down and begin a descent, which means the AoA is increasing, but the nose still shows a 0 degree reference to the horizon. I've been teaching and flying instruments for 22 years and even in a power plane the Artificial Horizon almost never shows the Angle of attack.

Mike