World Contest - 15m class

On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 8:29:04 PM UTC+3, krasw wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 November 2016 18:16:58 UTC+2, Sean wrote:
The 26 is a beautiful glider so at least they have good taste.

Agreed. No matter what the story is (there is always two sides of coin), AS did not willingly donate the aerodynamic shape of '26 fuselage to competing manufacturer.


So, the ASG29 was not truly new when it was released ten years ago. My registration actually says ASG 27-18

That is just paperwork. Factory has to pay annually to EASA for every type-certificate data sheet it owns. Schleicher has over 20 of these, Airbus only four. So they decided to use '27 data sheet for '29. Sure it inherits a lot from '27, but it is still different animal. I think it was 29 and 18m tips that revealed the full potential of Waibel's original design.


Today, SH designed what is essentially a "new wing" for the V2 and aptly calls it V3! Ta da! The wing is much thinner than the V2s and is intended to run "extremely well" compared to the V2 based on contest flying behavior research. But will it climb effectively in weaker conditions? The same fuselage as the V2 appears to have been used for the V3. This calls into question how large the improvement "can be" as the V2 was already a step behind the 29 and JS1 in most conditions. The V2 fuselage is, obviously, VERY FAT (lots of wetted area) and therefore so is the V3 fuselage. Results of the V3 design strategy are still largely unknown.


Using same fuselage for different types is quite normal. LS1-f/LS6/LS7/LS8/LS10, ASW24/27/28/ASG29, Ventus a/2a/3a/Discus a/2a, ASH26/JS1 etc. I think the Ventus 3 has flown only with a-cockpit, which has lowest wetted area of anything because it is so small. You are confusing Schempp's big b/c-model fuselage with small a-model. Your speculation about V3 wing is based on what exactly?

The same canopy fits a mid 1970s Janus and a modern Duo Discus!

The Ventus 3 is not represented yet on the Schempp Hirth website...

https://www.schempp-hirth.com/en.html

Interesting.

The general design brief for the V3 (wing only) is, therefore, not well marketed (or even formally published) although I suspect that a purchase of the SH presentation from the recent SSA convention from 'Wings and Wheels' would discuss the V3 design brief in great detail. Take a look at DVD #14 he http://wingsandwheels.com/pilot-supp...tion-dvd..html

https://www.schempp-hirth.com/en.html

It essentially goes like this: "by studying flight traces (glide/climb ratios, speeds, climb rates, etc) from actual competition flights, they believe the current airfoils are not optimized (essentially to thick, too high drag) so the adopted a new airfoil (thinner essentially) optimized for better high speed glide performance and (likely) slightly less performance in climb. In other words they cite that competition gliders are flying faster than optimum (for their current V2 airfoils) and climbing less that predicted.. So they have built a new wing optimized for the speeds and climb percentages that are actually being flown in real competition."

This design strategy is well known among the SH community and is the basis for the arguement that the V3 will have exceptional performance in competition. It has also resulted in a large book of pre-orders.

We shall see the results of the new wing shortly.

Sean

Interesting that the Quintus is listed on their web site, even after they updated it last year. The Quintus is not in production and since SH never went through any of the certification process they cannot build any more of the quintus, too bad the world needs another true open class gliders with long wings.

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 7:55:24 AM UTC-8, Sean wrote:
The Ventus 3 is not represented yet on the Schempp Hirth website...

https://www.schempp-hirth.com/en.html

Interesting.

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 8:55:24 AM UTC-7, Sean wrote:
The Ventus 3 is not represented yet on the Schempp Hirth website...

https://www.schempp-hirth.com/en.html

Interesting.

The general design brief for the V3 (wing only) is, therefore, not well marketed (or even formally published) although I suspect that a purchase of the SH presentation from the recent SSA convention from 'Wings and Wheels' would discuss the V3 design brief in great detail. Take a look at DVD #14 he http://wingsandwheels.com/pilot-supp...ntion-dvd.html

https://www.schempp-hirth.com/en.html

It essentially goes like this: "by studying flight traces (glide/climb ratios, speeds, climb rates, etc) from actual competition flights, they believe the current airfoils are not optimized (essentially to thick, too high drag) so the adopted a new airfoil (thinner essentially) optimized for better high speed glide performance and (likely) slightly less performance in climb. In other words they cite that competition gliders are flying faster than optimum (for their current V2 airfoils) and climbing less that predicted. So they have built a new wing optimized for the speeds and climb percentages that are actually being flown in real competition."

This design strategy is well known among the SH community and is the basis for the arguement that the V3 will have exceptional performance in competition. It has also resulted in a large book of pre-orders.

We shall see the results of the new wing shortly.

Sean

Well, the V3 has already been raced. UK 18 Meter Nationals Aug 20 thru 26th..

Steve Jones is one of the best.
I cut this link(may not work) but full results are here.
http://www.soaringspot.com/en_gb/tibenham-18m-.

1 565 Brian Birlison ASG 29E 1,918
2 80 Andy Davis JS1c Evo 1,915
3 E1 Russell Cheetham JS1c Evo 1,822
4 E11 Stephen Ell ASG 29E 1,812
5 10 Gary Stingemore ASG 29E 1,806
6 N1 Peter Harvey JS1c 1,763
7 601 Tim Jenkinson ASG29E 1,752
8 9 Rory Ellis ASG 29E 1,695
9 3V Steve Jones Ventus 3 1,681
10 XS Richard Browne JS1c 1,629

Bet. Tom #711.

Interesting Tom. Schempp Hirth would have been all over these results (social media, etc) if they were favorable. News of the V3 has been fairly difficult to find. They probably still have a bit of tuning left to do. Let's hope, for their sake, the glider ends up performing better than that.

let's not forget that the pilot is a big factor in all of this and that he could have f@#$%'d up... it's not like we haven't all done that...

Also, in speaking with those guys at the convention they mentioned not wanting to race the V3 because of the temporary restricted VNE imposed because of certification stuff. not sure if that was a factor or not, but they at least made comments about skewed perception. I am interested to see how it performs as well.

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 12:56:29 PM UTC-5, Sean wrote:
Interesting Tom. Schempp Hirth would have been all over these results (social media, etc) if they were favorable. News of the V3 has been fairly difficult to find. They probably still have a bit of tuning left to do. Let's hope, for their sake, the glider ends up performing better than that.

Looks like this was a really weak comment test. Only 1900 points in 5 days. But weak is what worries me about the V3

http://www.soaringspot.com/en_gb/tib...-18m-nationals

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 10:21:23 AM UTC-7, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 8:55:24 AM UTC-7, Sean wrote:
The Ventus 3 is not represented yet on the Schempp Hirth website...

https://www.schempp-hirth.com/en.html

Interesting.

The general design brief for the V3 (wing only) is, therefore, not well marketed (or even formally published) although I suspect that a purchase of the SH presentation from the recent SSA convention from 'Wings and Wheels' would discuss the V3 design brief in great detail. Take a look at DVD #14 he http://wingsandwheels.com/pilot-supp...ntion-dvd.html

https://www.schempp-hirth.com/en.html

It essentially goes like this: "by studying flight traces (glide/climb ratios, speeds, climb rates, etc) from actual competition flights, they believe the current airfoils are not optimized (essentially to thick, too high drag) so the adopted a new airfoil (thinner essentially) optimized for better high speed glide performance and (likely) slightly less performance in climb. In other words they cite that competition gliders are flying faster than optimum (for their current V2 airfoils) and climbing less that predicted. So they have built a new wing optimized for the speeds and climb percentages that are actually being flown in real competition."

This design strategy is well known among the SH community and is the basis for the arguement that the V3 will have exceptional performance in competition. It has also resulted in a large book of pre-orders.

We shall see the results of the new wing shortly.

Sean

Well, the V3 has already been raced. UK 18 Meter Nationals Aug 20 thru 26th.

Steve Jones is one of the best.
I cut this link(may not work) but full results are here.
http://www.soaringspot.com/en_gb/tibenham-18m-.

1 565 Brian Birlison ASG 29E 1,918
2 80 Andy Davis JS1c Evo 1,915
3 E1 Russell Cheetham JS1c Evo 1,822
4 E11 Stephen Ell ASG 29E 1,812
5 10 Gary Stingemore ASG 29E 1,806
6 N1 Peter Harvey JS1c 1,763
7 601 Tim Jenkinson ASG29E 1,752
8 9 Rory Ellis ASG 29E 1,695
9 3V Steve Jones Ventus 3 1,681
10 XS Richard Browne JS1c 1,629

Bet. Tom #711.

A Ventus 3T competed at the FAI Sailplane Grand Prix in Musbach Germany in August 2016. The Ventus 3T, flown by Mario Kiessling, finished in 3rd place out of 19 competitors. Here's the link to the results:

http://www.sgp.aero/germany2016/resu...ontestID=16082

We should know even more on the performance of the Ventus 3 after the WGCs in Benalla in January. There will be 7 Ventus 3s competing in the 18 meter class...Thanks!

Yep. That was a much stronger contest. The other contest was weaker (like east coast USA) and it clearly struggled.

The 29 won both events. Hmmm. One trick pony?

On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 9:11:36 AM UTC-7, Sean wrote:
Yep. That was a much stronger contest. The other contest was weaker (like east coast USA) and it clearly struggled.

The 29 won both events. Hmmm. One trick pony?

Sean - "Roger.." It will be interesting to see how it all works out in Benalla. Your being there competing in the 18m will actually be tremendous as you will be able to see first hand how the Ventus 3 fares against 29s, JS-1s, etc, etc. I know you will be very busy during the contest, but hopefully when you get back you can post your impressions and observations! Thanks - Renny