Low cost ADS-B Options

Kirk,

I agree with most of what you say, however the PCAS (only) equipped
gliders in your area will not see you unless you have a transponder. I
also noted to my great satisfaction that, after installing a
transponder, I didn't see other aircraft up close any more, except for
that one guy who had a flarm only. Neither ATC nor I ever saw him
(except visually).

Dan

On 12/9/2016 4:20 PM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 3:41:58 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

Kirk, you are flying an experimental glider so you can install ADS-B out now. You can install a reasonably priced system today. I started with a very expensive position sensor, but moved to Garmin 20A that works very well in a glider, the cost $845 plus antenna. This position sensor works with Trig 22 transponder. If I had a choice between a transponder and PowerFlarm I would always pick a transponder. Anyway, the cost is not huge. My ADS-B in is a dual band Stratus 2s paired to ForeFlight.
Andrej, I have to disagree with you on priorities. Given the choice between a transponder and PF, I chose PF. Meets my current needs better. If I was still flying out west, I would probably find a way to squeeze a Trig into my panel.

What do you fly and how do you display your ADS-B in? In my LS6 I really don't have room for another display - and having a ipad mini strapped to my leg is less than ideal.

And again, cost wise, you are talking TT22 ($2600?) plus GPS ($845) plus dual band Stratus ($900) plus iPad ($500) plus Foreflight ($100). Thats damn near $5000 BEFORE installation.

Thanks, I'll stick to my PF (which cost me about $1100) and do clearing turns when the PCAS function alerts me to a transponder threat co-altitude.

Kirk
66

--
Dan, 5J

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 5:35:10 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Kirk,

I agree with most of what you say, however the PCAS (only) equipped
gliders in your area will not see you unless you have a transponder. I
also noted to my great satisfaction that, after installing a
transponder, I didn't see other aircraft up close any more, except for
that one guy who had a flarm only. Neither ATC nor I ever saw him
(except visually).

Dan


Not a problem for me, since the ONLY other glider with a transponder also has PowerFLARM. We see each other fine!

Chances of the other gliders equipping with $5000 worth of ADS-B?

Not bloody likely! Well, one new glider might...

Chance of more PF installs, for just under $2K? Maybe...

Kirk
66

Not talking about the other glider at your club, nor am I talking about
ADS-B (despite the subject line). I'm talking about Joe Farmer bopping
along in his 172 and staring at his new-fangled GPS. Remember that guy
that got run over by an F-16 a few months back...? Now admittedly, you
wouldn't expect either of them to have FLARM (in this country), and
ATC's warnings didn't convey the urgency to the F-16 pilot.

I recall leading a visitor to Colorado on a flight southwest from Black
Forest back in the 90s when an A-7 blasted by on our left about the time
we were crossing Pike's Peak. I told him to watch out as they didn't
travel alone. The other one went by on our right. That wouldn't have
happened if either one of us had had a transponder but it /_would_/ have
happened nonetheless even had both of us been FLARM equipped.

Just sayin'

On 12/9/2016 8:02 PM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 5:35:10 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Kirk,

I agree with most of what you say, however the PCAS (only) equipped
gliders in your area will not see you unless you have a transponder. I
also noted to my great satisfaction that, after installing a
transponder, I didn't see other aircraft up close any more, except for
that one guy who had a flarm only. Neither ATC nor I ever saw him
(except visually).

Dan

Not a problem for me, since the ONLY other glider with a transponder also has PowerFLARM. We see each other fine!

Chances of the other gliders equipping with $5000 worth of ADS-B?

Not bloody likely! Well, one new glider might...

Chance of more PF installs, for just under $2K? Maybe...

Kirk
66

--
Dan, 5J

On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 9:21:25 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Not talking about the other glider at your club, nor am I talking
about ADS-B (despite the subject line).Â* I'm talking about Joe
Farmer bopping along in his 172 and staring at his new-fangled GPS.Â*
Remember that guy that got run over by an F-16 a few months
back...?Â* Now admittedly, you wouldn't expect either of them to have
FLARM (in this country), and ATC's warnings didn't convey the
urgency to the F-16 pilot.


Actually - your scenario is EXACTLY why I prefer PF (remember, it's basically FLARM plus PCAS plus ADS-B from 1090ES) to a transponder, in MY low alt environment. Joe Farmer VFR may be squawking 1200 and talking to nobody, and doesn't have ADS-B. I'll get a warning on PF (PCAS). Or, Joe Doctor is VFR in his Cirrus with fancy ADS-B (mode S). I'll see him on my PF.

Now, if I replace my PF with a nice TT-21 (for about the same price): Joe Farmer doesn't see me, and Joe Doctor might get me via TIS-B. I don't get ANY warning about EITHER of them.

I like my way better - because in the air, I don't trust ANYONE!

And sure, it would be nice to have a cheap simple ADS-B out...BUT RIGHT NOW IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!! Thank you FAA for completely blowing off the small guy.

Kirk
66

Starting another thread, Transponders and FLARM, so as not to pollute
this one any more. And I'm still interested in a low cost ADS-B.

Dan

On 12/10/2016 10:36 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 9:21:25 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Not talking about the other glider at your club, nor am I talking
about ADS-B (despite the subject line). I'm talking about Joe
Farmer bopping along in his 172 and staring at his new-fangled GPS.
Remember that guy that got run over by an F-16 a few months
back...? Now admittedly, you wouldn't expect either of them to have
FLARM (in this country), and ATC's warnings didn't convey the
urgency to the F-16 pilot.

Actually - your scenario is EXACTLY why I prefer PF (remember, it's basically FLARM plus PCAS plus ADS-B from 1090ES) to a transponder, in MY low alt environment. Joe Farmer VFR may be squawking 1200 and talking to nobody, and doesn't have ADS-B. I'll get a warning on PF (PCAS). Or, Joe Doctor is VFR in his Cirrus with fancy ADS-B (mode S). I'll see him on my PF.

Now, if I replace my PF with a nice TT-21 (for about the same price): Joe Farmer doesn't see me, and Joe Doctor might get me via TIS-B. I don't get ANY warning about EITHER of them.

I like my way better - because in the air, I don't trust ANYONE!

And sure, it would be nice to have a cheap simple ADS-B out...BUT RIGHT NOW IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!! Thank you FAA for completely blowing off the small guy.

Kirk
66

--
Dan, 5J

Nope. Looks like you tried renaming the existing thread to "Transponders and FLARM" which is likely the worse thing to do and not what you intended.

On USENET/Google Groups you need to create a whole new thread, they are tracked by embedded IDs not the title.

On Sunday, December 11, 2016 at 7:54:59 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
Starting another thread, Transponders and FLARM, so as not to pollute
this one any more. And I'm still interested in a low cost ADS-B.

Dan

Actually I started a new thread, Transponders and FLARM, maybe I
mistakenly used the "Followup" button rather than the "Write" button in
Thunderbird, gave it my new title, and copied/pasted Kirk's last reply.

My main point in continuing the discussion is that a non FLARM equipped
aircraft which has some other collision avoidance device, e.g., PCAS,
will not "see" a FLARM but no transponder aircraft. I have experienced
just that here at Moriarty. The other guy could see my transponder but
I could not see him (except visually).

Dan

On 12/11/2016 12:21 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Nope. Looks like you tried renaming the existing thread to "Transponders and FLARM" which is likely the worse thing to do and not what you intended.

On USENET/Google Groups you need to create a whole new thread, they are tracked by embedded IDs not the title.

On Sunday, December 11, 2016 at 7:54:59 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
Starting another thread, Transponders and FLARM, so as not to pollute
this one any more. And I'm still interested in a low cost ADS-B.

Dan

--
Dan, 5J

I'm all for cheap but I think of the glider as pretty much a stationary
target for a fast mover. Sure, you'll see the other-equipped aircraft,
but he won't see you, mainly because he's got his head inside the
cockpit (or somewhere else...).

Time for another "There I Was" story... I was climbing over Black
Forest at around 12,000' MSL, directly on a line between Colorado
Springs and Denver International. Looking south, I saw a speck in the
distance. Following 360 degrees of turn, I saw the 767 banking sharply
to avoid me. Had I had a transponder, they would have seen me. At the
time, neither PCAS nor FLARM were on the market. Glad the copilot was
looking outside!

I'm not bashing FLARM but I only bought mine because of a smoking good
deal on it. Now that I have it, I like it but I still think that, if
you can only afford one thing, the transponder is the way to go.

Yesterday, returning from my wave flight and passing over Moriarty to
add miles to my triangle, I got an ADS-B hit on my PF portable. It was
2,500' below me at 12 o'clock. Counting on my fingers, I calculated he
was at 12,000' MSL crossing over home plate. Must be IFR, must be an
airliner, turn a few degrees to the right and look down and there he
is! Had I been lower, and had I not had a transponder, it could have
been a completely different story.

On 12/10/2016 10:36 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 9:21:25 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Not talking about the other glider at your club, nor am I talking
about ADS-B (despite the subject line). I'm talking about Joe
Farmer bopping along in his 172 and staring at his new-fangled GPS.
Remember that guy that got run over by an F-16 a few months
back...? Now admittedly, you wouldn't expect either of them to have
FLARM (in this country), and ATC's warnings didn't convey the
urgency to the F-16 pilot.
Actually - your scenario is EXACTLY why I prefer PF (remember, it's basically FLARM plus PCAS plus ADS-B from 1090ES) to a transponder, in MY low alt environment. Joe Farmer VFR may be squawking 1200 and talking to nobody, and doesn't have ADS-B. I'll get a warning on PF (PCAS). Or, Joe Doctor is VFR in his Cirrus with fancy ADS-B (mode S). I'll see him on my PF.

Now, if I replace my PF with a nice TT-21 (for about the same price): Joe Farmer doesn't see me, and Joe Doctor might get me via TIS-B. I don't get ANY warning about EITHER of them.

I like my way better - because in the air, I don't trust ANYONE!

And sure, it would be nice to have a cheap simple ADS-B out...BUT RIGHT NOW IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!! Thank you FAA for completely blowing off the small guy.

Kirk
66

--
Dan, 5J

On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 9:21:25 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:

I recall leading a visitor to Colorado on a flight southwest from
Black Forest back in the 90s when an A-7 blasted by on our left
about the time we were crossing Pike's Peak.Â* I told him to watch
out as they didn't travel alone.Â* The other one went by on our
right.Â* That wouldn't have happened if either one of us had had a
transponder but it would have happened nonetheless
even had both of us been FLARM equipped.

Wait, how would you having a transponder have prevented a VFR A-7 (not talking to center) from hitting you at low level? Unless A-7s had IFF interrogators, he wouldn't see you. When I used to fly low levels in F-4s the only way we knew about low level traffic was by using our radar and IFF interrogator - we were on a tactical freq and not talking to anyone.

But yes, if you fly where there is a lot of airline/bizjet traffic, a transponder is a REALLY GOOD THING TO HAVE, no argument there. I just disagree that in all environments it's more valuable than a PF.

Kirk