First TSO-C199 "TABS" device

On 1/3/17 7:56 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 7:11:53 PM UTC-5, Sarah wrote:
Hi Walt,

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 5:31:05 PM UTC-6, WaltWX wrote:

It sounds like having TABS with your Trig in a glider will make you more visible to other aircraft who can track ADS-B out messages. The Mode S transponder already gives an equipped glider visibility to TCAS.

Right. It would make you visible on all those GA ADSB-in devices & ipads. That's something. It should also make your position visible to powerflarm users, but I have not verified that.

Now, in a Mode S equipped glider, I can request a clearance to enter Class A,B, C, or restricted airspace ... but in the future after 2020... will that clearance be denied UNLESS I have a TSO-C166B ADS-B out device?

That's how I read 91.225. I'd love to be corrected. If you really need to enter class A IFR, you'll need something much more expensive and harder to fit in a glider, a 1090es/TSO-C166 device. A TSO'd UAT is enough for class B or C. If you have an experimental glider non-TSO'd equipment is OK but you have to be careful.
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/faq/#q4
I'm not an expert in these areas - see other posts on RAS or page Darryl Ramm.

(To be careful here, you strictly don't need a "TSO'd UAT" (or 1090ES
Out) for class B or C. An *experimental* aircraft just needs a "Meets
performance requirement of TSO..." device.).

I agree that is what the regulations say, and the intent around
TABS/TSO-C199 was aiming at collision avoidance and deliberately not at
ATC applications. If planning on obtaining IFR clearances into Class A
airspace I'd be planning on equipping a glider with a 2020 Complaint
1090ES Out system... but I'd also talk with your local FSDO.

I have some questions around this myself and am trying to find answers
and will post updates if I can.



I would hope that FAA or ATC would allow clearances to enter/transit Class A,B,C and restricted airspace WITH a TABS device.

One can always hope.


So, to me... this sounds like a very minimally beneficial upgrade to my Trig setup. I wonder... will TABS devices be visible to the satellite based ADS-B tracking service? If so, it might replace other satellite tracking devices like Spot and Delorme/Garmin InReach.

I don't know. I suspect they would be as visible as any other ADSB-out device, but I'm not certain.

The big advantage of having a TN72 coupled with a Trig transponder is that it will trigger the ADS-B ground stations to generate TIS-B and ADS-R broadcasts so that you can reliably see other aircraft if you are ADS-B IN equipped. Without an ADS-B OUT signal, you will not see any transponder equipped aircraft unless they are ADS-B OUT equipped, nor will you see ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft that are using a different frequency than your ADS-B receiver (not an issue if you have a dual frequency ADS-B receiver).


Since TABS/TSO-C199 and is all based on 1090ES Out I expect this will
just work. But you would want to ask (future) providers like Aireon, but
lots of things about their future service offerings including pricing,
data availability, etc are unclear to me. Their initial focus seems much
more airlines and trans-oceanic ATC applications.

It will be interesting to watch what is happening here over the next
decade or so but I do not expect Spot and Inreach devices to be replaced
any time soon by any ADS-B technology. The messaging capability with
InReach especially won't be replaced by ADS-B tracking.

Terrestrial crowd sourced tracking systems like Flightradar24 should
have no problems technically receiving TABS/TSO-C199 based devices as
long as they have local receiver coverage. Now whether those services
decide to publish tracks for all GA aircraft or gliders in the future
who knows.

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 9:06:12 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On 1/3/17 7:56 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 7:11:53 PM UTC-5, Sarah wrote:
Hi Walt,

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 5:31:05 PM UTC-6, WaltWX wrote:

It sounds like having TABS with your Trig in a glider will make you more visible to other aircraft who can track ADS-B out messages. The Mode S transponder already gives an equipped glider visibility to TCAS.

Right. It would make you visible on all those GA ADSB-in devices & ipads. That's something. It should also make your position visible to powerflarm users, but I have not verified that.

Now, in a Mode S equipped glider, I can request a clearance to enter Class A,B, C, or restricted airspace ... but in the future after 2020... will that clearance be denied UNLESS I have a TSO-C166B ADS-B out device?

That's how I read 91.225. I'd love to be corrected. If you really need to enter class A IFR, you'll need something much more expensive and harder to fit in a glider, a 1090es/TSO-C166 device. A TSO'd UAT is enough for class B or C. If you have an experimental glider non-TSO'd equipment is OK but you have to be careful.
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/faq/#q4
I'm not an expert in these areas - see other posts on RAS or page Darryl Ramm.

(To be careful here, you strictly don't need a "TSO'd UAT" (or 1090ES
Out) for class B or C. An *experimental* aircraft just needs a "Meets
performance requirement of TSO..." device.).

I agree that is what the regulations say, and the intent around
TABS/TSO-C199 was aiming at collision avoidance and deliberately not at
ATC applications. If planning on obtaining IFR clearances into Class A
airspace I'd be planning on equipping a glider with a 2020 Complaint
1090ES Out system... but I'd also talk with your local FSDO.

I have some questions around this myself and am trying to find answers
and will post updates if I can.



I would hope that FAA or ATC would allow clearances to enter/transit Class A,B,C and restricted airspace WITH a TABS device.

One can always hope.


So, to me... this sounds like a very minimally beneficial upgrade to my Trig setup. I wonder... will TABS devices be visible to the satellite based ADS-B tracking service? If so, it might replace other satellite tracking devices like Spot and Delorme/Garmin InReach.

I don't know. I suspect they would be as visible as any other ADSB-out device, but I'm not certain.

The big advantage of having a TN72 coupled with a Trig transponder is that it will trigger the ADS-B ground stations to generate TIS-B and ADS-R broadcasts so that you can reliably see other aircraft if you are ADS-B IN equipped. Without an ADS-B OUT signal, you will not see any transponder equipped aircraft unless they are ADS-B OUT equipped, nor will you see ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft that are using a different frequency than your ADS-B receiver (not an issue if you have a dual frequency ADS-B receiver).


Since TABS/TSO-C199 and is all based on 1090ES Out I expect this will
just work. But you would want to ask (future) providers like Aireon, but
lots of things about their future service offerings including pricing,
data availability, etc are unclear to me. Their initial focus seems much
more airlines and trans-oceanic ATC applications.

It will be interesting to watch what is happening here over the next
decade or so but I do not expect Spot and Inreach devices to be replaced
any time soon by any ADS-B technology. The messaging capability with
InReach especially won't be replaced by ADS-B tracking.

Terrestrial crowd sourced tracking systems like Flightradar24 should
have no problems technically receiving TABS/TSO-C199 based devices as
long as they have local receiver coverage. Now whether those services
decide to publish tracks for all GA aircraft or gliders in the future
who knows.

Now for the rest of the story.

An amplified GPS antenna is need that meets ETSO C190
Trig TA70 Antenna $318 + Trig TN72 TABS GPS $359 = $677

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Is there any way to get one GPS antenna for everything?
Pretty easy to amass quite a collection of them
CNFD, CNV, CA302, Flarm, TABS

SF

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 10:34:52 AM UTC-8, SF wrote:
Is there any way to get one GPS antenna for everything?
Pretty easy to amass quite a collection of them
CNFD, CNV, CA302, Flarm, TABS

SF

One GPS antenna for 3 or 4 or 5 devices.

The problem is that each GPS provides power to the antenna, so just splitting the wire does not work and will damage something. Some have tried to use DC blockers on all devices but one.

I troubleshot one system that had a DC blocker on two inputs and an Air Avionics Vario, ClearNav, PowerFlarm.
Problem not all the instruments worked correctly. Tried switching the connections but nothing worked. When I went to 3 seperate GPS antennas all worked.

So in theory yes but practice maybe not.

Richard
www.craggyaero.

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-8, Richard wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 10:34:52 AM UTC-8, SF wrote:
Is there any way to get one GPS antenna for everything?
Pretty easy to amass quite a collection of them
CNFD, CNV, CA302, Flarm, TABS

SF

One GPS antenna for 3 or 4 or 5 devices.

The problem is that each GPS provides power to the antenna, so just splitting the wire does not work and will damage something. Some have tried to use DC blockers on all devices but one.

I troubleshot one system that had a DC blocker on two inputs and an Air Avionics Vario, ClearNav, PowerFlarm.
Problem not all the instruments worked correctly. Tried switching the connections but nothing worked. When I went to 3 seperate GPS antennas all worked.

So in theory yes but practice maybe not.

Richard
www.craggyaero.

I know this is slightly derailing the thread so I'll make another one.
Jim

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 9:06:12 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On 1/3/17 7:56 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 7:11:53 PM UTC-5, Sarah wrote:
Hi Walt,

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 5:31:05 PM UTC-6, WaltWX wrote:

It sounds like having TABS with your Trig in a glider will make you more visible to other aircraft who can track ADS-B out messages. The Mode S transponder already gives an equipped glider visibility to TCAS.

Right. It would make you visible on all those GA ADSB-in devices & ipads. That's something. It should also make your position visible to powerflarm users, but I have not verified that.

Now, in a Mode S equipped glider, I can request a clearance to enter Class A,B, C, or restricted airspace ... but in the future after 2020... will that clearance be denied UNLESS I have a TSO-C166B ADS-B out device?

That's how I read 91.225. I'd love to be corrected. If you really need to enter class A IFR, you'll need something much more expensive and harder to fit in a glider, a 1090es/TSO-C166 device. A TSO'd UAT is enough for class B or C. If you have an experimental glider non-TSO'd equipment is OK but you have to be careful.
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/faq/#q4
I'm not an expert in these areas - see other posts on RAS or page Darryl Ramm.

(To be careful here, you strictly don't need a "TSO'd UAT" (or 1090ES
Out) for class B or C. An *experimental* aircraft just needs a "Meets
performance requirement of TSO..." device.).

I agree that is what the regulations say, and the intent around
TABS/TSO-C199 was aiming at collision avoidance and deliberately not at
ATC applications. If planning on obtaining IFR clearances into Class A
airspace I'd be planning on equipping a glider with a 2020 Complaint
1090ES Out system... but I'd also talk with your local FSDO.

I have some questions around this myself and am trying to find answers
and will post updates if I can.



I would hope that FAA or ATC would allow clearances to enter/transit Class A,B,C and restricted airspace WITH a TABS device.

One can always hope.


So, to me... this sounds like a very minimally beneficial upgrade to my Trig setup. I wonder... will TABS devices be visible to the satellite based ADS-B tracking service? If so, it might replace other satellite tracking devices like Spot and Delorme/Garmin InReach.

I don't know. I suspect they would be as visible as any other ADSB-out device, but I'm not certain.

The big advantage of having a TN72 coupled with a Trig transponder is that it will trigger the ADS-B ground stations to generate TIS-B and ADS-R broadcasts so that you can reliably see other aircraft if you are ADS-B IN equipped. Without an ADS-B OUT signal, you will not see any transponder equipped aircraft unless they are ADS-B OUT equipped, nor will you see ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft that are using a different frequency than your ADS-B receiver (not an issue if you have a dual frequency ADS-B receiver).


Since TABS/TSO-C199 and is all based on 1090ES Out I expect this will
just work. But you would want to ask (future) providers like Aireon, but
lots of things about their future service offerings including pricing,
data availability, etc are unclear to me. Their initial focus seems much
more airlines and trans-oceanic ATC applications.

It will be interesting to watch what is happening here over the next
decade or so but I do not expect Spot and Inreach devices to be replaced
any time soon by any ADS-B technology. The messaging capability with
InReach especially won't be replaced by ADS-B tracking.

Terrestrial crowd sourced tracking systems like Flightradar24 should
have no problems technically receiving TABS/TSO-C199 based devices as
long as they have local receiver coverage. Now whether those services
decide to publish tracks for all GA aircraft or gliders in the future
who knows.

Sorry to rain on the parade but!

An amplified GPS antenna is needed that meets ETSO C190
Trig TA70 Antenna $318 + Trig TN72 TABS GPS $359 = $677

Richard
www.craggyaero.com