ADS-B why

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 11:51:53 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 5:30:29 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 4:49:20 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?

If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?

Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.

Actually, my experience with NorCal Approach was different. Last Sep 2016 while flying up from Inyokern to Reno, I stopped in a 17.5k msl climb thermal just SE of Carson City. While monitoring NorCal frequency, I inadvertently made a call to my friend Jim Staniforth, thinking I was on 123.3.. To my surprise, the NorCal controller called back, identifying me as "Glider N53LK" just as if I was in flight following. He asked me to ident (Trig 22 transponder on code 1202) which I did. Trained and observant controllers already know we are gliders... and with Mode S they have our ID and N-number right on their display (at least this controller did). I was pleasantly surprised ... and pleased... to know that ATC was watching. That makes my purchase and install of the Trig Mode S transponder very worthwhile.

Walt Rogers WX

Oh they know we are gliders. Don't need Mode S (or even mode C) for that, just look for the slow moving target wandering all over the place like a drunken sailor. I fly out of Truckee so I cross the approach into Reno twice on nearly every flight. On occasion I've been close enough to the Southwestm737s to tell you which seats were empty, and who still needed drinks. The controllers have always been helpful when I talk to them. They are pretty good about steering the 737s around us. I am simply suggesting that their job would be a lot easier with more information that they typically lack on gliders.

Ending up that close to a 737 is exactly why you want ADS-B IN (and OUT). If you can see this guy coming, and it's no surprise, it's not a problem. But if he suddenly shows up, chances are that he or ATC never saw you. With ADS-B IN you are in control and can proactively stay out of the way and not have to rely on ATC or an airline captain's eyeballs to keep you safe.

Oh bull****. Pilots flying in the Reno area likely do not need any of your crackpot pro-ADS-B hype.

This is an area where transponder use is highly encouraged and PASCO has worked with the FAA to encourage communications/procedures with ATC and where clubs and FBOs tend to be extremely safety/traffic conscious. Following the Hawker 800 midair collision It's the frigging NTSB-poster-child of why gliders is similar areas should be *transponder* equipped.

If you run down that list of things then maybe you can add 1090ES ADS-B Out/In but it won't buy you a lot. ADS-B likely won't let you outmaneuver an airliner, it will help point out where the heavy traffic routes are, but glider pilots flying in the area already likely know those routes. It's ATC keeping that traffic away from gliders (with the use of transponders and radio) and in the worse case TCAS as a backup that is critically important in the area.

Have you actually flown in an A/C with ADS-B? Have you listened to ATC giving traffic advisories to jets flying around gliders? In many areas, you get a warning that there is a glider dead ahead at your altitude, but no minor vectors to deviate to avoid the traffic. Everyone is suppose to look outside and see the traffic when you have a closing speed of 250+ knots.

Just look at what happened with the military midairs with transponder equipped GA planes during the last year. That shows you exactly how effective today's ATC procedures can be.

Finally, your assertion that a glider can't out maneuver a 737 is total BS. What's the turning radius of a 737? It doesn't take much maneuvering to get out of the way of a jet. All you need is to be able to see him coming a mile or two out, and make a 90 degree turn and get out of the way. Kind of hard to do, when he's coming up from behind you and you don't have a clue he's there.

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 4:19:31 PM UTC+3, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 11:51:53 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 5:30:29 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 4:49:20 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?

If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?

Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.

Actually, my experience with NorCal Approach was different. Last Sep 2016 while flying up from Inyokern to Reno, I stopped in a 17.5k msl climb thermal just SE of Carson City. While monitoring NorCal frequency, I inadvertently made a call to my friend Jim Staniforth, thinking I was on 123..3. To my surprise, the NorCal controller called back, identifying me as "Glider N53LK" just as if I was in flight following. He asked me to ident (Trig 22 transponder on code 1202) which I did. Trained and observant controllers already know we are gliders... and with Mode S they have our ID and N-number right on their display (at least this controller did). I was pleasantly surprised ... and pleased... to know that ATC was watching. That makes my purchase and install of the Trig Mode S transponder very worthwhile.

Walt Rogers WX

Oh they know we are gliders. Don't need Mode S (or even mode C) for that, just look for the slow moving target wandering all over the place like a drunken sailor. I fly out of Truckee so I cross the approach into Reno twice on nearly every flight. On occasion I've been close enough to the Southwestm737s to tell you which seats were empty, and who still needed drinks. The controllers have always been helpful when I talk to them. They are pretty good about steering the 737s around us. I am simply suggesting that their job would be a lot easier with more information that they typically lack on gliders.

Ending up that close to a 737 is exactly why you want ADS-B IN (and OUT). If you can see this guy coming, and it's no surprise, it's not a problem. But if he suddenly shows up, chances are that he or ATC never saw you.. With ADS-B IN you are in control and can proactively stay out of the way and not have to rely on ATC or an airline captain's eyeballs to keep you safe.

Oh bull****. Pilots flying in the Reno area likely do not need any of your crackpot pro-ADS-B hype.

This is an area where transponder use is highly encouraged and PASCO has worked with the FAA to encourage communications/procedures with ATC and where clubs and FBOs tend to be extremely safety/traffic conscious. Following the Hawker 800 midair collision It's the frigging NTSB-poster-child of why gliders is similar areas should be *transponder* equipped.

If you run down that list of things then maybe you can add 1090ES ADS-B Out/In but it won't buy you a lot. ADS-B likely won't let you outmaneuver an airliner, it will help point out where the heavy traffic routes are, but glider pilots flying in the area already likely know those routes. It's ATC keeping that traffic away from gliders (with the use of transponders and radio) and in the worse case TCAS as a backup that is critically important in the area.

Have you actually flown in an A/C with ADS-B? Have you listened to ATC giving traffic advisories to jets flying around gliders? In many areas, you get a warning that there is a glider dead ahead at your altitude, but no minor vectors to deviate to avoid the traffic. Everyone is suppose to look outside and see the traffic when you have a closing speed of 250+ knots.

Just look at what happened with the military midairs with transponder equipped GA planes during the last year. That shows you exactly how effective today's ATC procedures can be.

Finally, your assertion that a glider can't out maneuver a 737 is total BS. What's the turning radius of a 737? It doesn't take much maneuvering to get out of the way of a jet. All you need is to be able to see him coming a mile or two out, and make a 90 degree turn and get out of the way. Kind of hard to do, when he's coming up from behind you and you don't have a clue he's there.

When they're doing a mile every 6 or 7 seconds? If they're that close when you take action then it's much faster to adjust your altitude up to 500 ft up or down (depending on your initial speed).

You know the jet's altitude much more accurately than it's position or track anyway.

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 5:19:31 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:

Have you actually flown in an A/C with ADS-B?

No, I personally haven't. Don't see the need.
Right now I'm watching the race at Benalla, VIC.
There are 10 gliders within 1000' of altitude in one thermal near the start line for Open Class.
Mike, please enlighten us as to where the pilots of the 10 ADS-B equipped gliders would be considering ADS-B in this situation, on the scale of fantastic (10) to annoying (0).
Jim

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 10:53:32 PM UTC-6, JS wrote:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 5:19:31 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:

Have you actually flown in an A/C with ADS-B?

No, I personally haven't. Don't see the need.
Right now I'm watching the race at Benalla, VIC.
There are 10 gliders within 1000' of altitude in one thermal near the start line for Open Class.
Mike, please enlighten us as to where the pilots of the 10 ADS-B equipped gliders would be considering ADS-B in this situation, on the scale of fantastic (10) to annoying (0).
Jim

Jim, please enlighten me why an elite (limited) group of world's best glider pilots in a specific situtation such as World Championships would be indicative and should set an example for all other pilots all over the world, enjoying the peaceful XC? Isn't a competition a special case? Apply it to other sport disciplines: yachting, skiing, car racing - density and speeds etc. Do racing cars set rules for a normal street traffic?

Tom BravoMike

On Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 8:58:34 AM UTC-8, Tom BravoMike wrote:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 10:53:32 PM UTC-6, JS wrote:
On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 5:19:31 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:

Have you actually flown in an A/C with ADS-B?

No, I personally haven't. Don't see the need.
Right now I'm watching the race at Benalla, VIC.
There are 10 gliders within 1000' of altitude in one thermal near the start line for Open Class.
Mike, please enlighten us as to where the pilots of the 10 ADS-B equipped gliders would be considering ADS-B in this situation, on the scale of fantastic (10) to annoying (0).
Jim

Jim, please enlighten me why an elite (limited) group of world's best glider pilots in a specific situtation such as World Championships would be indicative and should set an example for all other pilots all over the world, enjoying the peaceful XC? Isn't a competition a special case? Apply it to other sport disciplines: yachting, skiing, car racing - density and speeds etc. Do racing cars set rules for a normal street traffic?

Tom BravoMike

Sorry for using a readily available example.
Many good XC weekends at the home field will have gliders sharing a thermal even if a gaggle of two. The gaggles might have elite wood, fabric and steel tubing aircraft.
Would like to know how a modern collision avoidance / traffic awareness system that is designed for typical power traffic separation works in this situation.
Jim

I've flown in gaggles. I don't see how any electronic displays and/or sounds can replace "see and avoid" attitude in a gaggle, with distances of just tens of meters. You have to turn your neck/head/eyes around all the time rather than be distracted by the instruments. I believe devices like FLARM are useful at distances slightly bigger than those in a gaggle. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have no experience flying with FLARM.

Tom BravoMike

One thing I have found Flarm very useful for -

If I am in a crowded gaggle, I've got my head on a swivel. Flarm does a pretty decent job of warning me about gliders away from the thermal who are flying straight looking to join the thermal. It tends to reduce the shock when someone suddenly appears off your 3 o'clock outside the thermal.

Lou

In my extremely limited experience flying with Flarm, I find that it's a
great situational awareness tool. I've had it alert me of a glider
overtaking me and it was nice to know there was another glider in the
vicinity. For close flying (formation, gaggles), you just can't beat
the Mk-I eyeball.

I currently have all the range settings at maximum for my amusement,
being the only glider in the sky this time of year (except for today,
Billy Hill flew with me in the wave). It also allows me to get used to
it so I can tighten up the settings so as to not be disturbed with
meaningless information.

On 1/11/2017 12:07 PM, Tom BravoMike wrote:
I've flown in gaggles. I don't see how any electronic displays and/or sounds can replace "see and avoid" attitude in a gaggle, with distances of just tens of meters. You have to turn your neck/head/eyes around all the time rather than be distracted by the instruments. I believe devices like FLARM are useful at distances slightly bigger than those in a gaggle. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have no experience flying with FLARM.

Tom BravoMike


--
Dan, 5J

On Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 5:59:20 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
In my extremely limited experience flying with Flarm, I find that it's a
great situational awareness tool. I've had it alert me of a glider
overtaking me and it was nice to know there was another glider in the
vicinity. For close flying (formation, gaggles), you just can't beat
the Mk-I eyeball.

I currently have all the range settings at maximum for my amusement,
being the only glider in the sky this time of year (except for today,
Billy Hill flew with me in the wave). It also allows me to get used to
it so I can tighten up the settings so as to not be disturbed with
meaningless information.

On 1/11/2017 12:07 PM, Tom BravoMike wrote:
I've flown in gaggles. I don't see how any electronic displays and/or sounds can replace "see and avoid" attitude in a gaggle, with distances of just tens of meters. You have to turn your neck/head/eyes around all the time rather than be distracted by the instruments. I believe devices like FLARM are useful at distances slightly bigger than those in a gaggle. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have no experience flying with FLARM.

Tom BravoMike


--
Dan, 5J

Please, anyone who thinks ATC will route traffic around them when they only show up as a primary target should actually visit ATC and see what they have to contend with. Move too slowly (i.e. circling) and you will be eliminated from their screen altogether. When displayed your target will be easily overlooked.

Anyone flying in the Reno/Minden area should be equipped with a transponder, preferably a mode S. If you are so close you can see which seats are empty you are WAY TOO CLOSE! If you are joking you are a fool.

Tom

All you need is to be able to see him coming a mile or two out, and make a 90 degree turn and get out of the way.

Darryl is right. It's tricky to know at those closure rates on which side/above/below he will pass even if you see him coming from several miles away. not a fun situation.