For Keith Willshaw...

"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ...
After my noting the way my text keeps being deleted it seems a
new tactic to obscure has been created, take the time and effort
to rearrange the order of the few words of mine left in.


Well, I do not remember any of your texts about the utmostly most
important detail of whole Pearl Harbor story,namely introduction of
JN25B code,being deleted.
Because you always avoided this issue and did not write anything about
that.
Let me repeat again,when Japanese introduced JN25B in Dec.1940,they
continued to use old random code books for another two months.
This was the one of the biggest ever intel blunders in the history and
you have missed it.Strange,to say at least.

As I posted before,JN25 was a 19th century system,very identical to
the system used by US forces between 1898-1917 and reason why US
phased out this system was very simple;it was insecure.

So.Japanese military dispatches were,as Churchill pointed out,not
secrets for US(also for Brits and Dutch)

I guess you could not find time to post anything about that

As usual most of my words are deleted, new tactic time though, simply
lie about what has been written. Denyav has decided to go back to
a message I wrote on June 14, bypassing the JN-25 information I
posted more recently. I await with interest his retrieval of information
I sent in say 1990 as another desperate tactic to avoid actually answering.

denyav wrote in message ...
"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ...
After my noting the way my text keeps being deleted it seems a
new tactic to obscure has been created, take the time and effort
to rearrange the order of the few words of mine left in.

Well, I do not remember any of your texts about the utmostly most
important detail of whole Pearl Harbor story,namely introduction of
JN25B code,being deleted.

Yes folks, if Denyav can forget about him deleting the text he can
simply pretend it did not happen. He started off passing Pearl
Harbor the movie as a source of facts and now finds the real
facts are coming out, so rewind to those simpler movie days.

Because you always avoided this issue and did not write anything about
that.

Translation Denyav will make a great effort to delete anything that
contradicts his preferred fiction. He will simply ignore what I wrote.

Let me repeat again,when Japanese introduced JN25B in Dec.1940,they
continued to use old random code books for another two months.
This was the one of the biggest ever intel blunders in the history and
you have missed it.Strange,to say at least.

Translation Denyav has replied to the message where I pointed out
what this meant and has now decided to lie about it rather than cope
with replying.

I expect him to heroically delete my reply and the heroically repeat he
is repeating his same junk. Two heroic acts means another self
awarded medal.

As I posted before,JN25 was a 19th century system,very identical to
the system used by US forces between 1898-1917 and reason why US
phased out this system was very simple;it was insecure.

Translation no proof brought forward, just a wishful thinking.

So.Japanese military dispatches were,as Churchill pointed out,not
secrets for US(also for Brits and Dutch)

Churchill pointed out all the messages they intercepted and decoded
were made public just after the war.

I guess you could not find time to post anything about that

Translation Denyav deletes things he does not like. The fun thing
is anyone can go and check on my posts, that is why I leave the
text in. It helps show up the lies.

The rest is cut and paste from my last post, on June 22,

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.

Simple really, just keep dropping all the claimed evidence, but keep the
conclusion.

Most of my stuff is cut and paste, you become interested in WWII and
you find the same conspiracy claims surfacing over and over.

The fact the posts have to be deleted is the best proof they are
accurate. Also the fleeing forward to new claims, not defending
the old junk. It seems we are going to be treated to the tour of the
various conspiracy claims, which goes to prove what Denyav is
when he can quote a character in the Paral Harbor movie as a
source but also supply all the other conspiracy claims.

Since there are no sources for the following information can we assume
the nurse character in Pearl Harbor the movie is the source?

Presumably the British reporting the codes were hard to break is
also irrelevant?

1)They are not hard to break,they are actually 19th Century type codes that
somehow apperared in 20th century.

Note by the way there is no source for this claim, note the fact the
1930's are not that far into the 20th century. Radio and telegraph
communications forced the development of coding systems.

The code groups were disguised with random numbers, it forced
the US into using machines to break the code, to try and discover
the random numbers by comparing hundreds of messages. The
code breakers indicated this was a hard thing to do.

2)A very identical coding system was introduced in US in 1898 for
Navy and Army and and abondoned in 1917 because it was insecure.

So why didn't the US simply drag out the US code books and use
them? Perhaps because the systems were different? Please
describe the US systems, how they worked.

3)It has dictionary of 33,333 words and phrases each given as a five figure
number and these were added to random numbers contained in a 2nd code
book

Not quite, there were 33,333 valid code groups, in both the A and B
versions some were left blank for future expansion. In the B version
around 2/3 of the groups had a second meaning, giving around 55,000
valid meanings.

Random numbers were added to the code groups before transmission.

4)The dictionary was changed only once before Pearl Harbor on Dec 1,1940.
But random book was changed in every 3 to 6 months.

You forgot to mention the B version contained additional tables for
locations, date/time and positions, a super encypherment. These
tables were not broken out until mid 1942.

5)The Japanase blundered away the Code when they introduced
JN25B by continuing to use the random table books that have been
solved by the allies,for two more months.That was the equivalent of
reconstructing the exposed dictionary.US recovered the whole thing
immediately.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

As of Autumn 1940 the US had around 1,000 JN-25A code groups
it thought it knew the meanings for, work continued on the A version
until around March 1941, on 1 April 1941 there were 1,800 A
version groups "recovered", versus 300 B version groups. It should
be noted recoveries were not a linear process, new discoveries
could and did prove previously assigned meanings were wrong.

So if you know JB25B inroduction date,you also know when allies
cracked the code basically.

My cat has 4 legs and a tail my dog has 4 legs and a tail therefore
my dog is a cat. Simple sort of logic.

Put it to you thins way, you are given 30,000 5 digit random numbers,
which have 55,000 meanings. Solve instantly. Now solve when you
have less than 1/2 of the random numbers used to disguise the code
group values.

Now go work on this, if you know 10% of the random numbers and
10% of the code groups then, assuming randomness, around 1%
of the messages will contain code groups you know hidden by
random numbers you know.

To crack the code you needed to know the random numbers
and the code group values.

Just for the record,in 1994 NSA published that JN25B code was completely
cracked in December 1940.
They knew that many knew that and they finally admitted.

Yes folks this is the fun part of the lies.

“Early (Northern) Fall” 1940 the US code breakers realised the system
for numbers in JN-25A was the same as an old code the US has the
code book for, the code group was the number itself multiplied
by a constant. In a single day of checking the high frequency code
groups the code groups for the numbers 0 to 999 fell out, 1/30 of
the total code. Since all code these group values were divisible by
three it confirmed the tentative code group values previously
assigned were correct and told the code breakers valid code group
values were divisible by three.

After this discovery the task of further recoveries and exploiting
traffic was largely shifted to Corregidor, which for a time in 1940/41
was the largest USN code breaking unit, having completely absorbed
the Shanghai unit in December 1940. (SRH-179
notes that the personnel from Shanghai were transferred to Corregidor
in phases from August 1940 to December 1940. The last group of ten
men from Shanghai reported to Corregidor on 16 December 1940. Just
before that time the intercept and decryption efforts at Shanghai were
shut down.)

In effect Washington declared JN-25A “completely solved” and
“completely broken”, that is the system was understood and the
remaining work was in recovering and assigning meanings to code
groups, then exploiting the results. The result was most work was
directed at the earlier, now superseded versions, to try and recover
the underlying code groups, since there were many more messages
in those versions, the keys of the latest text additive book were also
targeted as intercepts built up. No attempt was made to read current
traffic.

See the different definitions being used? The USN used the definition
that it understood how the code system worked, it had cracked the
logic but it only had 1/30 of the code groups. The usual conspiracy
situation is to try and convince people what is being meant is 100%
recovery of code groups and random numbers.

6)In January 1941,US gave Britain two JN25B note books with keys

Ah yes, the US and UK combining recoveries is simply turned into
they had the entire code and additive books.

So here we go with another basic lie. One of the problems to sort out
in early 1941 was when the US and UK had different values for valid
random numbers and meanings for valid code groups.

7)Whole Pearl Harbor schema was based on this code.

You mean Yamamoto's letters to his staff were sent in JN-25B?
The couriered messages were in JN-25B?

This is really funny.

8)Between Sep1 and Pearl Harbor attack US intercepted total 26581
(acc.to NSA) JN25N coded messages.

Yes folks, apparently these messages were all about Pearl Harbor.

Deleted text,

"None of the messages found in the "Pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese Naval
Dispatches" file mention Pearl Harbor by name. (This file is found in
National Archives at College Park, RG 38, Crane Files, CNSG 5830/115; most
of the messages have also have been reprinted in "Pearl Harbor Revisited:
United States Navy Communications Intelligence, 1924-1941," an unclassified
monograph published by the National Security Agency in 1994.)"

The USN went back in 1945/46 and broke out as many of the pre war
messages as it could to see what they could have told. One of the
favourite tricks is to claim the 1946 dates are faked.

9)Churchill wrote "from the end of 1940 Americans had pierced vital
Japanase ciphers and were decoding large numbers of Japanase
MILITARY and diplomatic messages" GRAND ALLIANCE page 598

A more full version of the quote is,

"From the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the
vital Japanese ciphers, and were decoding large
numbers of their military and diplomatic telegrams. In
the secret American circles these were referred to as
'Magics'. The 'Magics' were repeated to us, but there
was an inevitable delay - sometimes of two or three
days - before we got them. We did not know therefore
at any given moment all that the President or Mr. Hull
knew. I make no complaint of this."

This is a favourite quote of the conspiracy crowd, it is supposed
to be Churchill confessing the code breakings they want. Apparently
putting the boot into the recently deceased FDR and also himself.

The quote is above is on page 532 of the edition I have access to,
on page 535 comes the quote,

"A prodigious Congressional Inquiry published its findings in
1946 in which every detail was exposed of the events leading
up to the war between the United States and Japan and of
the failure to send positive "alert" orders through the military
departments to their fleets and garrisons in exposed situations.
Every detail, including the decoding of secret Japanese
telegrams and their actual texts, has been displayed to the
world in forty volumes. The strength of the United States was
sufficient to enable them to sustain this hard ordeal required
by the spirit of the American Constitution."

Simple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.

And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it.

Hard to break JN25B code is an urban legend created in Washington
D.C.to cover treason.

Translation telling lies about JN-25 is an attempt to cover someone's
inability to cope with reality.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

apanese introduced JN25B in Dec.1940,they
continued to use old random code books for another two months.
This was the one of the biggest ever intel blunders in the history and
you have missed it.Strange,to say at least.

Translation Denyav has replied to the message where I pointed out
what this meant and has now decided to lie about it rather than cope
with replying.

Again you are dodging questions about the most important blunder of Japanese in
WWII,by filling your posts with senseless crap.

Did Japanase continue to use old random JN25 code books for another two months
after introduction of "improved" JN25B version ?

As I posted before,JN25 was a 19th century system,very identical to
the system used by US forces between 1898-1917 and reason why US
phased out this system was very simple;it was insecure.

Translation no proof brought forward, just a wishful thinking.

Strange,You seem to know eveything about US ,but seemingly nothing about a
system which is used by US for twenty years.
BTW methods for cracking JN-25 or its father US system were published in
various journals world wide in 1931.

Churchill pointed out all the messages they intercepted and decoded
were made public just after the wa

If you cannot dodge a question unfortunately you resort to lies.
Check out Grand Alliance,page 598.

"From the end of 1940,the Americans pierced the vital Japanase ciphers,and were
decoding large numbers of their MILITARY and diplomatic messages"

W.Churchill

A hint for you:When Japanase introduced JN25B ?

deleted text,

"As usual most of my words are deleted, new tactic time though, simply
lie about what has been written. Denyav has decided to go back to
a message I wrote on June 14, bypassing the JN-25 information I
posted more recently. I await with interest his retrieval of information
I sent in say 1990 as another desperate tactic to avoid actually answering.

Yes folks, if Denyav can forget about him deleting the text he can
simply pretend it did not happen. He started off passing Pearl
Harbor the movie as a source of facts and now finds the real
facts are coming out, so rewind to those simpler movie days."

Denyav wrote in message ...
apanese introduced JN25B in Dec.1940,they
continued to use old random code books for another two months.
This was the one of the biggest ever intel blunders in the history and
you have missed it.Strange,to say at least.

Translation Denyav has replied to the message where I pointed out
what this meant and has now decided to lie about it rather than cope
with replying.

deleted text,

"I expect him to heroically delete my reply and the heroically repeat he
is repeating his same junk. Two heroic acts means another self
awarded medal."

Again you are dodging questions about the most important blunder of
Japanese in WWII,by filling your posts with senseless crap.

Lets see now, I have mentioned for quite some time the failure to
change additive books in December 1941.

Did Japanase continue to use old random JN25 code books for another
two months after introduction of "improved" JN25B version ?

Sigh, I keep telling you the additive book was not changed for the first
two months as for why you would have to ask the IJN, presumably an
administrative foul up.

Now tell us all how this meant the allies gained the complete code
book in 2 months. Not just a list of valid code groups.

As I posted before,JN25 was a 19th century system,very identical to
the system used by US forces between 1898-1917 and reason why US
phased out this system was very simple;it was insecure.

Translation no proof brought forward, just a wishful thinking.

Strange,You seem to know eveything about US ,but seemingly nothing about a
system which is used by US for twenty years.
BTW methods for cracking JN-25 or its father US system were published in
various journals world wide in 1931.

Translation no proof brought forward, just a wishful thinking.

Oh yes, the fact there is said to be a theoretical way to crack a
system is supposed to equal the system was cracked, silly isn't it?

The idea the Japanese might improve the system is dismissed.

Churchill pointed out all the messages they intercepted and decoded
were made public just after the wa

If you cannot dodge a question unfortunately you resort to lies.

This is good, see the Churchill quote below.

Check out Grand Alliance,page 598.

"From the end of 1940, the Americans pierced the vital Japanase ciphers,
and were decoding large numbers of their MILITARY and diplomatic messages"

W.Churchill

The quote is above is on page 532 of the edition I have access to,
on page 535 comes the quote,

"A prodigious Congressional Inquiry published its findings in
1946 in which every detail was exposed of the events leading
up to the war between the United States and Japan and of
the failure to send positive "alert" orders through the military
departments to their fleets and garrisons in exposed situations.
Every detail, including the decoding of secret Japanese
telegrams and their actual texts, has been displayed to the
world in forty volumes. The strength of the United States was
sufficient to enable them to sustain this hard ordeal required
by the spirit of the American Constitution."

Simple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.

And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it.

A hint for you:When Japanase introduced JN25B ?

A hint for you, when did the USN report it had cracked JN-25A?
How about the "dockyard" code? The weather code? Some of
the IJNAF codes? When exactly did the IJN move exclusively to
using JN-25B for everything?

The rest is deleted text.

Most of my stuff is cut and paste, you become interested in WWII and
you find the same conspiracy claims surfacing over and over.

The fact the posts have to be deleted is the best proof they are
accurate. Also the fleeing forward to new claims, not defending
the old junk. It seems we are going to be treated to the tour of the
various conspiracy claims, which goes to prove what Denyav is
when he can quote a character in the Pearl Harbor movie as a
source but also supply all the other conspiracy claims.

Since there are no sources for the following information can we assume
the nurse character in Pearl Harbor the movie is the source?

Presumably the British reporting the codes were hard to break is
also irrelevant?

1)They are not hard to break,they are actually 19th Century type codes that
somehow apperared in 20th century.

Note by the way there is no source for this claim, note the fact the
1930's are not that far into the 20th century. Radio and telegraph
communications forced the development of coding systems.

The code groups were disguised with random numbers, it forced
the US into using machines to break the code, to try and discover
the random numbers by comparing hundreds of messages. The
code breakers indicated this was a hard thing to do.

2)A very identical coding system was introduced in US in 1898 for
Navy and Army and and abondoned in 1917 because it was insecure.

So why didn't the US simply drag out the US code books and use
them? Perhaps because the systems were different? Please
describe the US systems, how they worked.

3)It has dictionary of 33,333 words and phrases each given as a five figure
number and these were added to random numbers contained in a 2nd code
book

Not quite, there were 33,333 valid code groups, in both the A and B
versions some were left blank for future expansion. In the B version
around 2/3 of the groups had a second meaning, giving around 55,000
valid meanings.

Random numbers were added to the code groups before transmission.

4)The dictionary was changed only once before Pearl Harbor on Dec 1,1940.
But random book was changed in every 3 to 6 months.

You forgot to mention the B version contained additional tables for
locations, date/time and positions, a super encypherment. These
tables were not broken out until mid 1942.

5)The Japanase blundered away the Code when they introduced
JN25B by continuing to use the random table books that have been
solved by the allies,for two more months.That was the equivalent of
reconstructing the exposed dictionary.US recovered the whole thing
immediately.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

As of Autumn 1940 the US had around 1,000 JN-25A code groups
it thought it knew the meanings for, work continued on the A version
until around March 1941, on 1 April 1941 there were 1,800 A
version groups "recovered", versus 300 B version groups. It should
be noted recoveries were not a linear process, new discoveries
could and did prove previously assigned meanings were wrong.

So if you know JB25B inroduction date,you also know when allies
cracked the code basically.

My cat has 4 legs and a tail my dog has 4 legs and a tail therefore
my dog is a cat. Simple sort of logic.

Put it to you thins way, you are given 30,000 5 digit random numbers,
which have 55,000 meanings. Solve instantly. Now solve when you
have less than 1/2 of the random numbers used to disguise the code
group values.

Now go work on this, if you know 10% of the random numbers and
10% of the code groups then, assuming randomness, around 1%
of the messages will contain code groups you know hidden by
random numbers you know.

To crack the code you needed to know the random numbers
and the code group values.

Just for the record,in 1994 NSA published that JN25B code was completely
cracked in December 1940.
They knew that many knew that and they finally admitted.

Yes folks this is the fun part of the lies.

“Early (Northern) Fall” 1940 the US code breakers realised the system
for numbers in JN-25A was the same as an old code the US has the
code book for, the code group was the number itself multiplied
by a constant. In a single day of checking the high frequency code
groups the code groups for the numbers 0 to 999 fell out, 1/30 of
the total code. Since all code these group values were divisible by
three it confirmed the tentative code group values previously
assigned were correct and told the code breakers valid code group
values were divisible by three.

After this discovery the task of further recoveries and exploiting
traffic was largely shifted to Corregidor, which for a time in 1940/41
was the largest USN code breaking unit, having completely absorbed
the Shanghai unit in December 1940. (SRH-179
notes that the personnel from Shanghai were transferred to Corregidor
in phases from August 1940 to December 1940. The last group of ten
men from Shanghai reported to Corregidor on 16 December 1940. Just
before that time the intercept and decryption efforts at Shanghai were
shut down.)

In effect Washington declared JN-25A “completely solved” and
“completely broken”, that is the system was understood and the
remaining work was in recovering and assigning meanings to code
groups, then exploiting the results. The result was most work was
directed at the earlier, now superseded versions, to try and recover
the underlying code groups, since there were many more messages
in those versions, the keys of the latest text additive book were also
targeted as intercepts built up. No attempt was made to read current
traffic.

See the different definitions being used? The USN used the definition
that it understood how the code system worked, it had cracked the
logic but it only had 1/30 of the code groups. The usual conspiracy
situation is to try and convince people what is being meant is 100%
recovery of code groups and random numbers.

6)In January 1941,US gave Britain two JN25B note books with keys

Ah yes, the US and UK combining recoveries is simply turned into
they had the entire code and additive books.

So here we go with another basic lie. One of the problems to sort out
in early 1941 was when the US and UK had different values for valid
random numbers and meanings for valid code groups.

7)Whole Pearl Harbor schema was based on this code.

You mean Yamamoto's letters to his staff were sent in JN-25B?
The couriered messages were in JN-25B?

This is really funny.

8)Between Sep1 and Pearl Harbor attack US intercepted total 26581
(acc.to NSA) JN25N coded messages.

Yes folks, apparently these messages were all about Pearl Harbor.

Deleted text,

"None of the messages found in the "Pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese Naval
Dispatches" file mention Pearl Harbor by name. (This file is found in
National Archives at College Park, RG 38, Crane Files, CNSG 5830/115; most
of the messages have also have been reprinted in "Pearl Harbor Revisited:
United States Navy Communications Intelligence, 1924-1941," an unclassified
monograph published by the National Security Agency in 1994.)"

The USN went back in 1945/46 and broke out as many of the pre war
messages as it could to see what they could have told. One of the
favourite tricks is to claim the 1946 dates are faked.

9)Churchill wrote "from the end of 1940 Americans had pierced vital
Japanase ciphers and were decoding large numbers of Japanase
MILITARY and diplomatic messages" GRAND ALLIANCE page 598

A more full version of the quote is,

"From the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the
vital Japanese ciphers, and were decoding large
numbers of their military and diplomatic telegrams. In
the secret American circles these were referred to as
'Magics'. The 'Magics' were repeated to us, but there
was an inevitable delay - sometimes of two or three
days - before we got them. We did not know therefore
at any given moment all that the President or Mr. Hull
knew. I make no complaint of this."

This is a favourite quote of the conspiracy crowd, it is supposed
to be Churchill confessing the code breakings they want. Apparently
putting the boot into the recently deceased FDR and also himself.

The quote is above is on page 532 of the edition I have access to,
on page 535 comes the quote,

"A prodigious Congressional Inquiry published its findings in
1946 in which every detail was exposed of the events leading
up to the war between the United States and Japan and of
the failure to send positive "alert" orders through the military
departments to their fleets and garrisons in exposed situations.
Every detail, including the decoding of secret Japanese
telegrams and their actual texts, has been displayed to the
world in forty volumes. The strength of the United States was
sufficient to enable them to sustain this hard ordeal required
by the spirit of the American Constitution."

Simple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.

And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it.

Hard to break JN25B code is an urban legend created in Washington
D.C.to cover treason.

Translation telling lies about JN-25 is an attempt to cover someone's
inability to cope with reality.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Yes folks, if Denyav can forget about him deleting the text he can
simply pretend it did not happen. He started off passing Pearl
Harbor the movie as a source of facts and now finds the real
facts are coming out, so rewind to those simpler movie days."

Again to many words to hide the forest.

Lets see now, I have mentioned for quite some time the failure to
change additive books in December 1941.

No,you did not ,because you knew what did it mean

Sigh, I keep telling you the additive book was not changed for the first
two months as for why you would have to ask the IJN, presumably an
administrative foul up.


No you never mentioned this issue before I pressed.Another indicator that you
know exactly what to hide.

Now tell us all how this meant the allies gained the complete code
book in 2 months. Not just a list of valid code groups.


First of all the two month period refers to use of old book by Japanase after
introduction of JN25B.
On plain English that means the Japanase continued to blunder away JN25 B
continuously for two months.
Of course US did not completed code recovering within two months,this work
continued.
In Nov.41 ,US was able to read 90% of JN25B coded messages.(Ditto for Brits and
Dutch)
BTW you did not even need complete code book to read the most of messages.
I am pretty sure that you are also aware what Safford asserted in 1941,but you
did and wont mention in any of your messages.Lets refresh your memory:

"A large JN25 code as many as 55000 values.But in actual practice,such was the
streoteyped nature of the text ,7000 recoveries permitted almost complete
decyrption,and many pattern messages could be read practically entire with as
few as 1500 meanings"
(History of OP-20-GYP1,NSA)

The idea the Japanese might improve the system is dismissed.

They indeed improved it but they committed one of the most stupit acts of WWII
during the process of improvement and they blundered away the improved system.

imple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.


So Churchill lied on one page and told the truth on another page,(Your truth
of Course).

You mean Yamamoto's letters to his staff were sent in JN-25B?
The couriered messages were in JN-25B?

This is really funny.

Couriered messages?
Did you tell Yamamato that JN25 B broken?
They all were radioed messages.

None of the messages found in the "Pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese Naval
Dispatches" file mention Pearl Harbor by name. (This file is found in
National Archives at College Park, RG 38, Crane Files, CNSG 5830/115; most
of the messages have also have been reprinted in "Pearl Harbor Revisited:
United States Navy Communications Intelligence, 1924-1941," an unclassified
monograph published by the National Security Agency in 1994.)"


Quite correct,but you again forgat to mention WHY the NONE of mentioned
Pre-Pearl Harbor messages are available in College Park.

Lets refresh your memory again:
Does almost three dozen withdrawal notices issued by NSA after the release of
"Days of Deceipt" remind you something?

Persons who claim that they are not available in College Park,must also tell
why they are being withdrawn by NSA.

Simple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.

And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it.

Hard to break JN25B code is an urban legend created in Washington
D.C.to cover treason.

Translation telling lies about JN-25 is an attempt to cover someone's
inability to cope with reality.


Well, the current custodians of Pearl Harbor conspiracy seemingly are not as
honest as Churchill or Stimson,they at least honestly admitted it, or as caring
as FDR,he did not inform Honululu about attack and made it happen,but he
secretly contacted Red Cross before attack and told them to get prepared for
attack,I would call him a really caring President.



"FDR stated that we were likely to be attacked perhaps as soon as next
Monday..The question was how should we maneuver them into position of firing
the first shot without too much danger to ourselves.In spite of risk involved
,however,in letting Japanase to fire the first shot,we realized that in order
to have full support of the American people it was desirable to make sure that
the Japanase be the ones to do this so that there should remain no doubt in
anyone's mind as to who were the Aggressors"

Henry Stimson ,The Secretary of War,Nov.25,1941

deleted text,

"As usual most of my words are deleted, new tactic time though, simply
lie about what has been written. Denyav has decided to go back to
a message I wrote on June 14, bypassing the JN-25 information I
posted more recently. I await with interest his retrieval of information
I sent in say 1990 as another desperate tactic to avoid actually answering.

Denyav wrote in message ...
Yes folks, if Denyav can forget about him deleting the text he can
simply pretend it did not happen. He started off passing Pearl
Harbor the movie as a source of facts and now finds the real
facts are coming out, so rewind to those simpler movie days."

Again to many words to hide the forest.

Translation no ability to reply to basic facts.

deleted text,

"I expect him to heroically delete my reply and the heroically repeat he
is repeating his same junk. Two heroic acts means another self
awarded medal."

Lets see now, I have mentioned for quite some time the failure to
change additive books in December 1941.

No,you did not ,because you knew what did it mean

Yes folks, Denyav's word is classified by him as Holy writ, no proof
is required. Much laughter generated. I am still waiting for proof
about what I am supposed to have dated the McCollum memo. I
like the way Denyav assumes because he needs to hide the truth
the same applies to others.

Sigh, I keep telling you the additive book was not changed for the first
two months as for why you would have to ask the IJN, presumably an
administrative foul up.

No you never mentioned this issue before I pressed.Another indicator that you
know exactly what to hide.

Yes folks, Denyav's word is classified by him as Holy writ, no proof
is required. Much laughter generated. In the mean time I am inflated
to big boogie man. I prefer get down and boogie man.

Now tell us all how this meant the allies gained the complete code
book in 2 months. Not just a list of valid code groups.

First of all the two month period refers to use of old book by Japanase after
introduction of JN25B.

The codes in question were the A5 and B5 versions. That is the code
book was changed from A to B but the additive (random number) book
was left at 5. In August 1945 the USN noted it had 4,907 out of 50,000
additives for the 5 book. Which explains quite well why the main effect
of the failure to change additive books did not compromise the code
values, but did compromise the fact the basic code system was still in use.

If it did compromise the code values then it should have compromised
the A version as well, yet the USN reports knowing around 5% of the
code values when work stopped around March 1941.

On plain English that means the Japanase continued to blunder away JN25 B
continuously for two months.

In plain English Denyav does not have a clue.

Of course US did not completed code recovering within two months,this work
continued.
In Nov.41 ,US was able to read 90% of JN25B coded messages.
(Ditto for Brits and Dutch)

Yes folks, Holy Writ time, no proof offered about what they could read.
By the way if it was 90% by December 1941 can you explain how this
percentage went down by April/May 1942, when the allies were trying
to figure out Midway and Coral Sea? Or that the all knowing intelligence
system missed the IJN battleships coming out at Midway and the way
the IJN carriers came into the Coral Sea? In the latter case it meant
the US carriers found themselves with the Japanese airbases in front
and the Japanese carriers behind, hence the way the tanker and
destroyer supposed to be safely in the rear were sunk first.

As of 20 April 1945 the USN found it had 35,761 additives of JN-25B7,
the version in use 1 August to 3 December 1941, with the probability
several hundred might be bad. So 70% of the additives were thought
to be known, this was upped to 47,500 by August 1945, as part of the
reworking of the messages. As of 1 December 1941 the USN thought
it knew 3,800 code group meanings.

Yes folks, the fact the IJN used the old additive book told the allies
the basic code system was still in place, 5 digit code groups with
valid numbers divisible by 3.

There was no need to worry about basic information like say the
new valid code groups were now divisible by say 2.

Just ignore the new code introduced auxiliary tables, two meanings
for the same code group, and stopped having the code groups in
alphabetical order. Just pretend the IJN radioed the code book
to the allies.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

Together with the British the US had 300 values assigned
to "B version" code groups by April 1941.

If you would like to know the exact code groups recovered it was
"Unfinished or Continuous" [i.e., a running tally]
April 1, 1941: "approximately 300 values recovered"
May 1, 1941: "approximately 400 values recovered"
June 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
July 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
August 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Sept 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Oct 1, 1941: "approximately 2400 values recovered"

"Completed during October 1941"
Nov 1, 1941: "600 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,000 values as of
this date]

"Completed during November 1941"
Dec 1, 1941: "800 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,800 values as of
this date]

"Unfinished or continuous"
Jan 1, 1942: "Approximately 6,180 values recovered"

Remembering some previously assigned values could be changed
by later discoveries.

So by the end of December 1941 the allied thought they had around 7%
of the code book recovered.

BTW you did not even need complete code book to read the most of
messages. I am pretty sure that you are also aware what Safford
asserted in 1941,but you did and wont mention in any of your
messages.Lets refresh your memory:

This is wonderful, I am supposed to know all about everything and
every document in existence on JN-25. This is not to flatter me of
course, but rather to manufacture another sinister hider of the
truth. Quick, award new medal for creating a new boogie man.

Yes folks, remember JN-25 was in effect a language, and that like
all languages most of the talk is in a small subset of the total words
available. Just do not mention the unusual words were the things
that were used for the messages the conspiracy wants to have
decoded in real time.

"A large JN25 code as many as 55000 values.But in actual practice,
such was the streoteyped nature of the text ,7000 recoveries permitted
almost complete decyrption,and many pattern messages could be
read practically entire with as few as 1500 meanings"
(History of OP-20-GYP1,NSA)


We have moved away from using Pearl Harbor the movie as a
source and now it seems we have moved onto carefully selected
excerpts from US government documents.

By the way the assertion above is Captain Safford wrote the words,
as opposed to the document being written in around 1944, not by
Safford. It also ignores the conclusion of the paper, JN-25 decryption
played no part in Pearl Harbor and all the reasons why. You see
the problem is the usual one, the really important messages were
the non standard ones.

By the way in case people are wondering Denyav is wandering the
conspiracy theory web sites, yet again Mark Willey's one or
conspiracy central, looking for that out of context quote to throw in.
Just type a key phrase into a search engine and see which site
Denyav is copying, watch the spelling errors though. Stand by for
the Martian involvement in the attack if the web site can be found.

Oh yes, "nothing to report" is a pattern message. Special orders
for unique operations are very non pattern using uncommon code
groups.

A fundamental problem is knowing the random numbers being used
to disguise a given message, it does not matter how common the
code groups are if the random numbers are not known.

deleted text, rather than telling us where the "world wide" journals
from 1931 with how to crack JN-25 can be found.

"Translation no proof brought forward, just a wishful thinking.

Oh yes, the fact there is said to be a theoretical way to crack a
system is supposed to equal the system was cracked, silly isn't it?"

The idea the Japanese might improve the system is dismissed.

They indeed improved it but they committed one of the most stupit
acts of WWII during the process of improvement and they blundered
away the improved system.

Ah yes the IJN improved the system but just keep up the claim
it was the same as US systems from years ago, which come
with "how to crack the code in 5 minutes" instructions.

imple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.


deleted text,

"And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it."

So Churchill lied on one page and told the truth on another page,
(Your truth of Course).

Yes folks, I just love the conspiracy claims, they require the truth
bringer to be liar and vice versa.

You mean Yamamoto's letters to his staff were sent in JN-25B?
The couriered messages were in JN-25B?

This is really funny.

Couriered messages?

By the way folks, the IJN should know what it sent by radio and
what it couriered, but do not worry, just assume the IJN is totally
composed of liars. Ignore the fact the text of the wonder key
message comes from post war interrogations.

Did you tell Yamamato that JN25 B broken?

Yes folks apparently everybody transmits everything by radio unless
they are told the code is broken. This joins the claim made one time
that the Japanese Post Office would not sent coded IJN messages.
It was an attempt to try and wish away the telegraph and courier
links to the fleet before it sailed. By the way the Japanese Post
Office was willing to send coded messages for non Japanese agencies.

They all were radioed messages.

Note the Holy Writ no proof statement.

By the way folks, the IJN should know what it sent by radio and
what it couriered, but do not worry, just assume the IJN is totally
composed of liars.

Just ignore navies knew it was a good idea to minimise radio
traffic, for that matter as did air forces and armies. No need
to be told the code might be broken. The German army I think
has the slogan all signals traffic is high treason.

None of the messages found in the "Pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese Naval
Dispatches" file mention Pearl Harbor by name. (This file is found in
National Archives at College Park, RG 38, Crane Files, CNSG 5830/115; most
of the messages have also have been reprinted in "Pearl Harbor Revisited:
United States Navy Communications Intelligence, 1924-1941," an unclassified
monograph published by the National Security Agency in 1994.)"

deleted text,

"The USN went back in 1945/46 and broke out as many of the pre war
messages as it could to see what they could have told. One of the
favourite tricks is to claim the 1946 dates are faked."

Quite correct,but you again forgat to mention WHY the NONE of mentioned
Pre-Pearl Harbor messages are available in College Park.

Lets refresh your memory again:
Does almost three dozen withdrawal notices issued by NSA after the release of
"Days of Deceipt" remind you something?

Ah yes, Stinnett was in such trouble, he needed to make all sorts
of claims about what could be found in the documents, I presume
since no proof has been provided of these withdrawal notices we
are being treated to another Holy Writ moment.

What I really love is the way the claim the documents are being
suppressed but Denyav knows what they are, apparently JN-25
intercepts. Who needs research when such psychic powers
exist. Hence the Holy Writ moments.

Persons who claim that they are not available in College Park,must also tell
why they are being withdrawn by NSA.

This is good the person who is claiming the documents are
not available must now tell us why. Denyav, please tell us
why and provide references for the notices.

Simple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.

And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it.

Hard to break JN25B code is an urban legend created in Washington
D.C.to cover treason.

Translation telling lies about JN-25 is an attempt to cover someone's
inability to cope with reality.

Yes change the subject time. Try and defend the first Churchill
quote and wish away the second.

Well, the current custodians of Pearl Harbor conspiracy seemingly are not as
honest as Churchill or Stimson,they at least honestly admitted it, or as caring
as FDR,he did not inform Honululu about attack and made it happen,but he
secretly contacted Red Cross before attack and told them to get prepared for
attack,I would call him a really caring President.

Yes folks, start off with the idea Churchill would apparently confess
to a conspiracy (no one noticed of course until the truth bringers
appeared to reinterpret the text). Then find anything the US did
to prepare for war as proof of a conspiracy.

Imagine that, expecting war, see Stimson, and then doing something
stupid like starting to put medical supplies in place. Of course the
stockpiles of medical supplies in US west coast ports are presumably
proof the Japanese intended to sail onto America after the attack, right?

By the way Hawaiian medical resources were being increased in 1940,
the Hawaiian Red Cross started war preparations in March 1941.

http://hml.org/mmhc/exhibits/ww2hml/

"Chartered as a member of the American Red Cross in 1917, the
Hawaii chapter began preparations for war in Hawaii in March 1941.
In April, the chapter cooperated with the Major Disaster Council of
Honolulu to coordinate the resources of the city with residents, firms,
agencies and organizations to meet any major disaster or
emergency. The plans of the Red Cross were laid primarily with a
view to air attack by Japan, which might be directed against the city
as well as military installations. The possibility of bombardment was
considered, as well as invasion, and its effect on the civilian population."

You see folks, conspiracy land would have the Red Cross must have
known, after all there they were preparing for air raids. Note that in
March 1941 the IJN attack was still in the is it possible discussion
phase between senior leaders.

Simple really, look for people preparing for war and announce they
must have known what was coming, the specific attacks, not the
war as a whole. Drag the Red Cross leadership into the conspiracy claims.

"FDR stated that we were likely to be attacked perhaps as soon as next
Monday..The question was how should we maneuver them into position of firing
the first shot without too much danger to ourselves.In spite of risk involved
,however,in letting Japanase to fire the first shot,we realized that in order
to have full support of the American people it was desirable to make sure that
the Japanase be the ones to do this so that there should remain no doubt in
anyone's mind as to who were the Aggressors"

Henry Stimson ,The Secretary of War,Nov.25,1941

Congratulations on a non relevant quote, by the way ever going to tell
us why the invasion of the Philippines, Wake and Guam and attacks
on US shipping were not enough for first shot honours? By the way the
above is apparently proof Stimson is admitting to allowing the Pearl
Harbor attack, as opposed to admitting he was not going to allow the
US to start shooting first.

Remember the isolationists, plus those that opposed FDR? The US
was a democracy, people actually differed from the government and
were allowed to. Such people were against the government starting
a war without congressional approval at least.

By the way "Next Monday" for someone writing on 25 November 1941
is 1 December 1941. Amazing how FDR knew the Japanese were
going to attack on 30 November 1941, the day after the 29 November
deadline the Japanese had set. Oh that's right, throw away all the
predictions that were incorrect and only ever mention the ones that
were correct, conspiracies need such help.

there is lots of deleted text but I will hold off this time. See previous
posts if interested.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

The codes in question were the A5 and B5 versions. That is the code
book was changed from A to B but the additive (random number) book
was left at 5. In August 1945 the USN noted it had 4,907 out of 50,000
additives for the 5 book. Which explains quite well why the main effect

of the failure to change additive books did not compromise the code
values, but did compromise the fact the basic code system was still in use.

If it did compromise the code values then it should have compromised
the A version as well, yet the USN

eports knowing around 5% of the
code values when work stopped around March 1941.

On plain English that means the Japanase continued to blunder away JN25 B

continuously for two months.

In plain English Denyav does not have a clue.

In Plain English you will continue to deny what really happened in the days
prior to Pearl Harbor.
Heck even some main actors of Pearl Harbor,like Stimson and Churchill etc
admitted it.
You are really very good in hiding reality behind too many irrelevant words.

What did you say now?
US stopped recovering codes in March when only 5% codes were recovered.

First of all do you believe to what you say?
Everbody knew that US and Japan were moving toward a confrontation in Pasific
and and US had a golden opportunity to recover all japanese naval codes,and
suddenly US stopped work on code recovering in March only after a couple of
months work!!!!.

Code recovering did not stop in March,it did not stop on Dec.7 either.

According to your data US recovered roughly 5000 codes by March which seems to
be correct.

But even with 5000 recoveries you can read the most of the messages.
"A large code as many as 55000 values ,but in actual practice ,such was
streotyped nature of the text,7000 recoveries permitted almost complete
decyription,and many pattern messages could be read practicaly entire with as
few as 1500 meanings"(History of OP-20-GYP-1,NSA)
ou see folks, conspiracy land would have the Red Cross must have
known, after all there they were preparing for air raids. Note that in
March 1941 the IJN attack was still in the is it possible discussion
phase between senior leaders.

For a different view please check out:
http://www.usni.org/Naval History/Articles/NHborgquist6.htm


Yes change the subject time. Try and defend the first Churchill
quote and wish away the second.

Is quoting from one page and wishing away others a priviledge given only to
Gov't employees?
I did not know that.

the specific attacks, not the
war as a whole. Drag the Red Cross leadership into the conspiracy claims.


You are very smart really,Red Cross of early 40s had more in common with FEMA
of 2001 ,than the Red Cross of 2001.

By the way in case people are wondering Denyav is wandering the
conspiracy theory web sites, yet again Mark Willey's one or
conspiracy central, looking for that out of context quote to throw in.
Just type a key phrase into a search engine and see which site
Denyav is copying, watch the

Thats seems to be big problem for the custodians of Pearl Harbor conspiracy.
The public interest in books and websites telling them what their Great Leaders
did not and do not tell is skyrocketing specially after 9/11.
I think now its pretty safe assume that so called conspiracy theories are now
becoming mainstream theories accepted by the most of the people.

Congratulations on a non relevant quote, by the way ever going to tell
us why the invasion of the Philippines, Wake and Guam and

What Stimson said is irrelevant,
What Churchill said is irrelevent.
What Congressman Dies said is irrelevant.
What Joseph Grew said is irrelevant.
What Haan said is irrelevant.
What US Army Gen.Rhorpe said is irrelevant.
What Popov said is irrelevant.
What Journalist Leib said is irrelevant.
What Capt.Rannefft of Dutch Navy said is irrelevant.
Countless others are irrelevant.

So whats relevant?
Of course the words of Pearl Harbor conspiracy custodians!!.

No wonder books,movies and websites telling what the custodians try to hide are
experiencing a boom.
Simply put,people do not want to hear lies only any longer.
Too bad for the custodians.