For Keith Willshaw...

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 5.
This time the other non reply tactic, break up the "replies" into multiple
posts with only a little text in each. Usual tactics, try and erase recent
history the same way as the history from 60+ years ago.

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.
19) JN-25 was an "easy" code, claim dropped.
20) Churchill quote meaning, claim dropped.
21) If you know one thing perfectly you must know another thing perfectly
(in an attempt to "prove" 1941 = 2001)

Anyway let the laughs begin.

Denyav wrote in message ...
Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 4.

I love your tactic,by posting long messages you are trying to hide the facts,i
have not much time to that but lets try play by your own rules

Yes folks, actually posting the text of War Warning messages, the
McCollum Memo and so on is hiding the facts. Remember the
absence of proof of a conspiracy is proof of two conspiracies,
the first one and the cover up.

By the way playing by my rules would require full replies, instead
of the sad attempts to erase the facts.

Apparently there is just enough time to spout the lies, but not to
defend them.

11) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)

What the text of war warning message?
You correctly stated in your message dated 6/9 so I dont want to repeat it.

This is funny really, the original claim was the war warning message

"They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period."

Now the 180 degree turn to make it a blind for the commanders
in Hawaii.

Which locations were warned with the famed message?
Philippines,Thai,BorneoKra,maybe Guam and Samoa !!!!

You forgot the people in Hawaii were given the message as well.

Please care to find distances between these locations and Hawaii.
Your so called war warning message is actually known as "Do Nothing"
message for Pearl Harbor.

Yes folks, just ignore the text of the message, the Hawaiian
commands were certainly not ordered to do nothing.

By the way the message is now mine, all mine, isn't that wonderful?
It needs to be made a non historical document it seems, and given
a new title as well, anything but deal with what it actually said.

The War warning sent to Pearl on 26 November, to the Army,

"Negotiations with Japanese appear to be terminated to all practical
purposes with only the barest possibilities that the Japanese
Government might come back and offer to continue. Japanese future
action unpredictable but hostile action possible at any moment. If
hostilities cannot, repeat can not, be avoided the U. S. desires that
Japan commit the first overt act. This policy should not, repeat not,
be construed as restricting you to a course of action at might jeopardize
your defense. Prior to Japanese hostile action you are directed to
undertake such reconnaissance and other measures as you deem
necessary but these measures should be carried out so as not, repeat
not, to alarm the civil population or disclose intent. Report measures
taken. Should hostilities occur, you will carry out task signed in Rainbow
Five as far as they pertain to Japan. Limit dissemination of this highly
secret information to minimum essential officers. "

To the navy,

"Consider this dispatch a war warning. The negotiations with Japan in
an effort to stabilize conditions in the Pacific have ended. Japan is
expected to make aggressive move within the next few days. An
amphibious expedition against either the Philippines, Thai, or Kra
Peninsula or possibly Borneo is indicated by the number and equipment
of Japanese troops and the organization of their naval task forces. You
will execute a defensive deployment in preparation for carrying out the
tasks assigned in WPL-46 only. Guam, Samoa and Continental Districts
have been directed to take appropriate measures against sabotage. A
similar warning is being sent by the War Department. Inform naval district
and Army authorities. British to be informed by Spenavo."

The navy received a copy of the army message on 28 November.

Strategy and Command, the first two years by Louis Morton, (US Army
in WWII, War in the Pacific series)

page 119,

"In view of the seriousness of the situation, the Army and Navy chiefs
felt that commanders in the Pacific should be warned immediately.
Already, the Navy had sent out word on the 24th-to be passed on to
the Army commanders-that prospects for an agreement with Japan
were slight and that Japanese troop movements indicated that "a
surprise aggressive movement in any direction, including attack on
Philippines or Guam" was a possibility. [37] Now, on the 27th,
Stimson asked General Gerow whether the Army should not send a
warning. Gerow showed him the Navy message of the 24th, but this
failed to satisfy Stimson who observed that the President wanted a
warning message sent to the Philippines. As a result, a fresh warning,
considered a "final alert," was sent to Hawaii, the Philippines, Panama,
and San Francisco. The commander of each of these garrisons was
told of the status of the negotiations with Japan, the imminence of
hostilities, and the desirability of having Japan commit the "first overt
act." Each was instructed to "undertake such reconnaissance and other
measures" as he thought necessary and to carry out the tasks assigned
in the war plan if hostilities occurred. With the exception of MacArthur,
each of the commanders was also warned not to alarm the civilian
population or to "disclose intent." At the same time G-2 of the War
Department sent an additional and briefer message to Hawaii and
Panama, but not to the Philippines, warning against subversive activities."

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/70-7_04.htm

has the text on line, in this case on page 117. Strange as it might seem
the army basically sent the same message to all its Pacific commands.

Now comes even more interesting part of story.

Big lie time being signalled.

When Washington issued so called War Warning or "Pearl Harbor
Do Nothing" message? Nov 26,1941

Now hold tight,when US,British and Dutch intercepted decoded
Yamamato's JN25b coded message to First Air Fleet?

You mean the one the IJN couriered to the fleet in Hittokapu bay?
You see IJN custom was to send such orders by courier. Things
like making sure the rest of the IJN was not eavesdropping on
such sensitive information. After all any ship or shore station in
the fleet that picked up the message could take a look at the
contents and Yamamoto wanted it to be a secret operation.

US and Brits decoded this message immediately (Dutch a little bit later on
Nov.27)

So let us understand this correctly the message is now being claimed
to be sent multiple times, right?

The Nurse character in the Pearl Harbor movie told you right?

It is quite simple, when Denyav actually tries to put a source for the
claims up it is shot down, so we are left with claims with no proof.

So,the first time allies had an official japanese document at hand,not Peruvian
minister,not a Korean,not a british double agent etc,but directly from the top
brain of IJN declaring Pearl Harbor as the target.
Date of Yamamato message?
Nov.25,1941
Date of of so called Warning or "Pearl Harbor Do Nothing" message?
Nov.26,1941

Yes folks, I suppose people are aware of what else happened on
26 November, the transmission of the US terms for negotiations
to the Japanese. In effect a restatement of the original US terms,
ones Japan had already said were unacceptable. The US was
also aware of the 29 November "Things are automatically going
to happen" deadline for negotiations to succeed in Japanese
terms.

Strange isn't it, the diplomats conclude negotiations are off, so
the time has come to send a war warning. Instead the great
conspiracy has to decide because they happened on the
same date they must be related.

Just forget the allies were not decoding JN-25 in November
1941, that the message in question was not radioed according
to the IJN, that intercepted messages from the Pacific came
to Washington via airmail and sea mail, but this message,
never radioed, never decoded, was decoded in real time and
sent to Washington in real time and in an instant the US
organised a cover up, for the people in the Pacific and Washington
and London and the Dutch.

So as soon as you officially learn that Japanase were going to attack Pearl
Harbor you prepare a War Warning gor the locations far away from Pearl Harbor
but you do not even mention the name of the real Target in the message.

Its eqivalent of receiving a definite terrorist attack intelligence for NYC but
issuing terror alerts for Sydney,Athens,Delhi and Rio DeJaneiro but not NYC.

yes folks, if FDR wore green socks on 26 November that is a signal.
Sneezing twice was the go code. Anything that happens on 26
November is to be considered proof of whatever is wanted proven.

I think Washingtons motives were very clear
1)To make sure that Japanase Intelligence that US is not aware of Japanese
intentions.
2)To prevent Pearl Harbor to take steps that might deter Japanase from making
the attack.
3)To save their own asses.

I think Denyav's intentions are quite clear,
1) To spread disinformation.
2) To prevent people learning from history.
3) To show the world he cannot cope with reality.

By the way in the days before the attack the USAAF mounted a
large exercise to "defend" the island, more than normal activity.

BTW Let me remind you again JN25b code was actually broken by US when
they first intoduced that code. How? I explained it in my previous post.

Translation, the "explanation" was blown to pieces and so it cannot
be repeated only the claim has to stay. Hence the way the text has
been deleted.

Just ignore the new code introduced auxiliary tables, two meanings
for the same code group, and stopped having the code groups in
alphabetical order. Just pretend the IJN radioed the code book
to the allies.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

Together with the British the US had 300 values assigned
to "B version" code groups by April 1941.

As of Autumn 1940 the US had around 1,000 JN-25A code groups
it thought it knew the meanings for, work continued on the A version
until around March 1941, on 1 April 1941 there were 1,800 A
version groups "recovered", versus 300 B version groups. It should
be noted recoveries were not a linear process, new discoveries
could and did prove previously assigned meanings were wrong.

“Early (Northern) Fall” 1940 the US code breakers realised the system
for numbers in JN-25A was the same as an old code the US has the
code book for, the code group was the number itself multiplied
by a constant. In a single day of checking the high frequency code
groups the code groups for the numbers 0 to 999 fell out, 1/30 of
the total code. Since all code these group values were divisible by
three it confirmed the tentative code group values previously
assigned were correct and told the code breakers valid code group
values were divisible by three.

After this discovery the task of further recoveries and exploiting
traffic was largely shifted to Corregidor, which for a time in 1940/41
was the largest USN code breaking unit, having completely absorbed
the Shanghai unit in December 1940. (SRH-179
notes that the personnel from Shanghai were transferred to Corregidor
in phases from August 1940 to December 1940. The last group of ten
men from Shanghai reported to Corregidor on 16 December 1940. Just
before that time the intercept and decryption efforts at Shanghai were
shut down.)

In effect Washington declared JN-25A “completely solved” and
“completely broken”, that is the system was understood and the
remaining work was in recovering and assigning meanings to code
groups, then exploiting the results. The result was most work was
directed at the earlier, now superseded versions, to try and recover
the underlying code groups, since there were many more messages
in those versions, the keys of the latest text additive book were also
targeted as intercepts built up. No attempt was made to read current
traffic.

See the different definitions being used? The USN used the definition
that it understood how the code system worked, it had cracked the
logic but it only had 1/30 of the code groups. The usual conspiracy
situation is to try and convince people what is being meant is 100%
recovery of code groups and random numbers.

Denyav wrote in message ...
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.

I like the effort that goes into carefully deleting unwanted items,

3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted

4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.

Then you must read the words of Navy Lawyer Konigman again'
"....historical record does not establish convincincly that President
Poosevelt,General Marshall or others in Washington "DELIBERATELY" withheld
information from Adm.Kimmel or Gen.Short as part of a plan or conspiracy to
expose Pearl Harbor to attack in order to thrust into war"

Thas the last line of defense of a Gov't employee trying to save Gov't from
much more grave charges,namely treason.

Congratulations, show us the proof, not a single lawyer making an
claimed allegation. Note by the way this meeting decades after
Kimmel's death was said to be proof for Kimmel's accusations.

By the way the above is meant to be proof of a conspiracy, the lawyer
is saying the record does not support a conspiracy.

The actual text,

http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm

STEVE HONIGMAN, General Counsel of the Navy

MR. HONIGMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What I'd like to do is to
state the official position of the Department today and that position
is the following. In our view there are three principle reasons why
Admiral Kimmel's rank should not be upgraded. The first, quite
simply, is that the historical record does not establish convincingly
that President Roosevelt, General Marshall, or others in Washington
deliberately withheld information from Admiral Kimmel and General
Short as part of a plan or a conspiracy to expose Pearl Harbor to
attack in order to thrust America into the war. "

I keep posting the URL along with the URL for the congressional motion.

http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpqu...el=TOC_545749&

"4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted."

Let me remind you again JN25B code was broken immediately after its
inroduction.

Big lie standard tactic, repeat as often as possible, keep the facts away.

Put it to you this way, you are given 30,000 5 digit random numbers,
which have 55,000 meanings. Solve instantly. Now solve when you
have less than 1/2 of the random numbers used to disguise the code
group values.

Now go work on this, if you know 10% of the random numbers and
10% of the code groups then, assuming randomness, around 1%
of the messages will contain code groups you know hidden by
random numbers you know.

To crack the code you needed to know the random numbers
and the code group values.

Denyav wrote in message ...
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.

That was only time Kimmel was given the opportunity to defend himself and
present his own case and findings.
This panel exonarated him as we all know.

6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.

7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.

Back again I see. Remember folks it is all a conspiracy but only
the USN investigating the USN is free from conspiracy.

Usual stuff, the story determines whether the sources are liked,
rather than the sources determining the story is correct.

Denyav wrote in message ...
) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.

Who dropped the claim you maybe?

Strange as it promptly disappeared from the reply to my post.
Strange as it had to go away because the movie Pearl Harbor
was being used as a source of "facts", but that could not be
done if it was all psyops.

You are pretty smart,who remembers original posts?

Denyav hopes against hope no one does.

Hollywood was and is nations premier PSYOP organization.
Check out "Who paid the Piper?"
Heck I wrote the exactly same things in original posts.

Then promptly dropped them because they made a mess of
other claims.

Denyav wrote in message ...
1) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.

You are hallucinating,McCollum and its memo are the key of Japan policy I
always maintained that.

My summary of the memo,

So 8 recommendations, the first 4 were not followed, the fifth was not
followed at the time, though more submarines were sent and then even
more in late 1941, the sixth and seventh had already happened before
the memo was written, the eighth finally happened around 9 months
later and only after further Japanese expansion.

Just remember the memo is the claimed blueprint for US government
policy.

All of this had to be deleted, along with the fact the memo never made
it beyond McCollums boss. So claim dropped.

Besides you have lied about the date of famed McCollum memo,the date of the
Memo is Oct.7,1940 so long before Pearl Harbor.

This is quite funny, it appears my posting the memo with the date
on it is telling lies about the date.

The rest is largely deleted text, just the key points this time, the amount of
text being ignored has grown too large.

I pinched the memo "highlights" from another post, note how the
memo is addressed to the directors, not someone in the white
house, yet it is supposed to make it to FDR in time for him to
make it the lunchtime conversation the next day, the "proof" FDR
saw the memo, just ignore the diary of the person FDR lunched with.

"Op-16-F-2 ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) 7 October 1940
Memorandum For The Directors
Subject: ESTIMATE OF THE SITUATION IN THE PACIFIC AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR ACTION OF THE UNITED STATES..."

A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British
bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore."

The USN did not use British bases until after the war started.
There was a conference in Manila about cooperation but it
ended with the sighting of the IJN invasion convoys heading
for Malaya. So this never happened pre war.

By the way the German Japanese naval base agreement
had been signed in 1940 or earlier.

"B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities
and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies" (now Indonesia)."

As for point A. Never happened pre war.

"C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang
Kai-shek."

30 aircraft in 1940, 141 in 1941, compared with 1,507 for the
British in 1940 and 5,249 in 1941. The USSR received more
aircraft than China, in fact the "other foreign" column has 787
aircraft delivered at the US factories. All possible aid would
have been a lot more aircraft for a start.

By the way the 30 aircraft for China in 1940 were trainers,
70 of the 1941 aircraft were trainers, 53 fighters, 18 light bombers.

So I presume the German sale of 12 aircraft to China in 1937
is an indicator Germany is giving all aid as well?

How about the German military advisors present on the Chinese
side in the late 1930s? I think they were withdrawn in 1939.

"D. Send a division of long-range heavy cruisers to the western
Pacific, the Philippines and Singapore."

Didn't happen, hint Manila is in the western pacific, it had a heavy
and a light cruiser plus the occasional extra cruiser passing through.

"E. Send two divisions of submarines to the western Pacific."

There were already USN submarines based in Manila, and the
memo's ideas of reinforcements was not followed. As a guide
to the changes note the USN had 96 submarines available, some
in reserve, in September 1939, the older boats were brought out
of reserve after war began in Europe and the total number
available grew steadily to 112 by the end of November 1941.

By the way USN submarine deployments to Manila from
DANFS, according to my by hand counts.

11/24 (yes 24) onward S-36, S-37, S-38, S-39, S-40, S-41

7/1925 to 5/1932 S-30, S-31, S-32, S-33, S-34, S-35

So until the depression the USN had 12 submarines present.

12/39 onward Porpoise, Pike, Tarpon, Perch, Pickerel, Permit

So the 12 submarine force is restored.

1939 Searaven "two years before war" my bet it should be with the
5 following submarines to make another 6 ship squadron and
arrived at the end of 1940.

1940 Seawolf (autumn)

10 or 11/40 Stingray, Seadragon, Sealion
12/40 Shark

1941 month unknown Snapper (probably 11/41), Sailfish (after 3/41
at least since that was the month it started a refit in the US)

11/41 Salmon, Seal, Sturgeon, Sargo, Saury, Spearfish, Sculpin,
Swordfish, Skipjack

Total 29, the force at the start of the war, I think 4 were
refitting on 8 December.

"F. Keep the main strength of the U.S. fleet, now in the Pacific, in
the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands."

Done before the memo was written, the memo is dated in October,
the basing decision was on 1 May 1940.

"G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for
undue economic concessions, Particularly oil."

Add the British as well, it made no sense for the US to
embargo oil if the Dutch and British would replace the
lost sales. The US did not need to do much to persuade
the Dutch, the Japanese idea of terms of trade did much
to persuade the Dutch extra trade was not worth it.

"H. Completely embargo all trade with Japan, in collaboration
with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire."

Finally happened, however the memo forgets to add the Dutch
to the embargo.

FDR had imposed trade embargoes on aviation fuel, lubricants
and high grade scrap metal on 25 July 1940. On 26 September
scrap iron was added to the list.

In the first week in October, that is just before the memo was written
the US ordered all Americans out of the far east, called up the naval
reserve and authorised Anglo-American staff talks in Singapore.
Additional supplies were sent to the Philippines as well.

Remember folks, the memo is supposed to be the blueprint, apparently
able to influence decisions before it was written.

The Japanese negotiations with the Dutch over oil finally ended in the
first week in October, with no gains for the Japanese.

"10. If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act
of war, so much the better. At all event we must be fully
prepared to accept the treat of war."

Yes, Japan preferred war to giving up the chance to colonise China.

So 8 recommendations, the first 4 were not followed, the fifth was not
followed at the time, though more submarines were sent and then even
more in late 1941, the sixth and seventh had already happened before
the memo was written, the eighth finally happened around 9 months
later and only after further Japanese expansion.

Just remember the memo is the claimed blueprint for US government
policy.

Japanese is a very context sensitive language, one of the major
efforts of the translators was to take broken out code groups and
try and figure out the meaning of the groups, the code recovery work.

Think of it this way

11111 22222 33333 44444 11111 55555.

Now tell me the meaning.

How about

The 22222 33333 44444 the 55555.

We are reading 1/3 of the message folks.

Another clue.

The 22222 33333 on the 55555.

50% readable now, surely the text is obvious.

The cat 33333 on the 55555.

2/3 readable.

The cat sat on the 55555.

Think you can fill in the final word?

Of course the message "The cat 33333 on the 55555."
could be "The cat slept on the chair".

The translators did much more than translating decrypted documents.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to

Dropped in your dreams maybe?
Ok.Lets repeat events again
a)Yamamatos "target Pearl Harbor" message intercepted and decoded by US and
Brits on Nov.25 and by Dutch on Nov.27.

b)After intercepting and decoding "Target Pearl Harbor" mesage on Nov.25,US
issued so-called War Warning message on Nov.26 for locations thousands miles
away from Pearl Harbor,BUT NOT for Pearl Harbor,the name of target mentioned in
Yamamatos dispatch !!!!.)
(BTW the Naval Court of Inquiry that exonorated Kimmel found that so called War
Message directed attention away from Hawaii rather than toward to it and
exonarated Kimmel)

2)After receiving Yamamato's "Target Pearl Harbor" message US did not only try
to direct attention AWAY from Pearl Harbor by issuing so called War Warning,but
also ordered ALL allied shipping to take Southern course,creating a shipping
free sea lane for the passage of Japanase Task Force!.

2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.

Do you need the facts?
I can give you more than you bargained for,for example check out:
FOIA#F-1998-00977

3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted

Posted with Auto poster ?

4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.

Posted with Autoposter?

1) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.

You have outright lied here the famed McCollum memo IS the blueprint for FDRs
Japan policy and the date of McCollum memo is Oct.7,1940,so not after Pearl
Harbor like you have claimed.

Apparently you have run out of arguments to prove your case.

Heck I expected much better than that from you initially.

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 6.
Now we are into claims being simply recycled, so

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.
19) JN-25 was an "easy" code, claim dropped.
20) Churchill quote meaning, claim dropped.
21) If you know one thing perfectly you must know another thing perfectly
(in an attempt to "prove" 1941 = 2001)
22) The war warnings become a blind rather than identifying Pearl as
the target.

Denyav wrote in message ...
the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to

deleted text,
"make Pearl Harbor the only target)"

Dropped in your dreams maybe?

No it is quite simple, the way the claims can never exist alongside
a reply pointing out their flaws, means the claims are dropped.

I am ignoring those who simply demand their word is holy writ.

deleted text to the next ""

"Yes folks, actually posting the text of War Warning messages, the
McCollum Memo and so on is hiding the facts. Remember the
absence of proof of a conspiracy is proof of two conspiracies,
the first one and the cover up.

By the way playing by my rules would require full replies, instead
of the sad attempts to erase the facts.

Apparently there is just enough time to spout the lies, but not to
defend them.

This is funny really, the original claim was the war warning message

"They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period."

Now the 180 degree turn to make it a blind for the commanders
in Hawaii."

Yes folks, just ignore the text of the message, the Hawaiian
commands were certainly not ordered to do nothing.

By the way the message is now mine, all mine, isn't that wonderful?
It needs to be made a non historical document it seems, and given
a new title as well, anything but deal with what it actually said.

The War warning sent to Pearl on 26 November, to the Army,

"Negotiations with Japanese appear to be terminated to all practical
purposes with only the barest possibilities that the Japanese
Government might come back and offer to continue. Japanese future
action unpredictable but hostile action possible at any moment. If
hostilities cannot, repeat can not, be avoided the U. S. desires that
Japan commit the first overt act. This policy should not, repeat not,
be construed as restricting you to a course of action at might jeopardize
your defense. Prior to Japanese hostile action you are directed to
undertake such reconnaissance and other measures as you deem
necessary but these measures should be carried out so as not, repeat
not, to alarm the civil population or disclose intent. Report measures
taken. Should hostilities occur, you will carry out task signed in Rainbow
Five as far as they pertain to Japan. Limit dissemination of this highly
secret information to minimum essential officers. "

To the navy,

"Consider this dispatch a war warning. The negotiations with Japan in
an effort to stabilize conditions in the Pacific have ended. Japan is
expected to make aggressive move within the next few days. An
amphibious expedition against either the Philippines, Thai, or Kra
Peninsula or possibly Borneo is indicated by the number and equipment
of Japanese troops and the organization of their naval task forces. You
will execute a defensive deployment in preparation for carrying out the
tasks assigned in WPL-46 only. Guam, Samoa and Continental Districts
have been directed to take appropriate measures against sabotage. A
similar warning is being sent by the War Department. Inform naval district
and Army authorities. British to be informed by Spenavo."

The navy received a copy of the army message on 28 November.

Strategy and Command, the first two years by Louis Morton, (US Army
in WWII, War in the Pacific series)

page 119,

"In view of the seriousness of the situation, the Army and Navy chiefs
felt that commanders in the Pacific should be warned immediately.
Already, the Navy had sent out word on the 24th-to be passed on to
the Army commanders-that prospects for an agreement with Japan
were slight and that Japanese troop movements indicated that "a
surprise aggressive movement in any direction, including attack on
Philippines or Guam" was a possibility. [37] Now, on the 27th,
Stimson asked General Gerow whether the Army should not send a
warning. Gerow showed him the Navy message of the 24th, but this
failed to satisfy Stimson who observed that the President wanted a
warning message sent to the Philippines. As a result, a fresh warning,
considered a "final alert," was sent to Hawaii, the Philippines, Panama,
and San Francisco. The commander of each of these garrisons was
told of the status of the negotiations with Japan, the imminence of
hostilities, and the desirability of having Japan commit the "first overt
act." Each was instructed to "undertake such reconnaissance and other
measures" as he thought necessary and to carry out the tasks assigned
in the war plan if hostilities occurred. With the exception of MacArthur,
each of the commanders was also warned not to alarm the civilian
population or to "disclose intent." At the same time G-2 of the War
Department sent an additional and briefer message to Hawaii and
Panama, but not to the Philippines, warning against subversive activities."

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/70-7_04.htm

has the text on line, in this case on page 117. Strange as it might seem
the army basically sent the same message to all its Pacific commands.

Ok.Lets repeat events again

Big lie time returns.

a)Yamamatos "target Pearl Harbor" message intercepted and decoded
by US and Brits on Nov.25 and by Dutch on Nov.27.

Deleted text,

"You mean the one the IJN couriered to the fleet in Hittokapu bay?
You see IJN custom was to send such orders by courier. Things
like making sure the rest of the IJN was not eavesdropping on
such sensitive information. After all any ship or shore station in
the fleet that picked up the message could take a look at the
contents and Yamamoto wanted it to be a secret operation.

The Nurse character in the Pearl Harbor movie told you right?

It is quite simple, when Denyav actually tries to put a source for the
claims up it is shot down, so we are left with claims with no proof."

b)After intercepting and decoding "Target Pearl Harbor" mesage on Nov.25,
US issued so-called War Warning message on Nov.26 for locations thousands
miles away from Pearl Harbor,BUT NOT for Pearl Harbor,the name of target
mentioned in Yamamatos dispatch !!!!.)

Deleted text,

"Yes folks, I suppose people are aware of what else happened on
26 November, the transmission of the US terms for negotiations
to the Japanese. In effect a restatement of the original US terms,
ones Japan had already said were unacceptable. The US was
also aware of the 29 November "Things are automatically going
to happen" deadline for negotiations to succeed in Japanese
terms.

Strange isn't it, the diplomats conclude negotiations are off, so
the time has come to send a war warning. Instead the great
conspiracy has to decide because they happened on the
same date they must be related.

Just forget the allies were not decoding JN-25 in November
1941, that the message in question was not radioed according
to the IJN, that intercepted messages from the Pacific came
to Washington via airmail and sea mail, but this message,
never radioed, never decoded, was decoded in real time and
sent to Washington in real time and in an instant the US
organised a cover up, for the people in the Pacific and Washington
and London and the Dutch."

By the way the IJN never used the words Pearl Harbor in a JN-25B
message, it had a geographic designator, remember AF = Midway
and the way the USN had to send the famous fresh water message
to remove doubts about what AF stood for? But do not worry about
this, just assume perfect US knowledge pre war and then they lose
it as soon as war is declared.

(BTW the Naval Court of Inquiry that exonorated Kimmel found that so called War
Message directed attention away from Hawaii rather than toward to it and
exonarated Kimmel)

How can this be known when the claim is the USN investigation has
been kept secret, or is that claim to be dropped, along with the
"Investigating themselves" claims as a reason to discredit the results
that are not liked?

2)After receiving Yamamato's "Target Pearl Harbor" message US did
not only try to direct attention AWAY from Pearl Harbor by issuing so
called War Warning,but also ordered ALL allied shipping to take
Southern course,creating a shipping free sea lane for the passage of
Japanase Task Force!.

yes folks, if FDR wore green socks on 26 November that is a signal.
Sneezing twice was the go code. Anything that happens on 26
November is to be considered proof of whatever is wanted proven.

By the way work out the sailing time from the US to the mid Pacific
and note if the US wanted to avoid interceptions the ban needed to
be in place before the IJN sailed. Also note the US did not control
all allied shipping, only US and there were Soviet freighters moving
between Siberia and the US west coast. So much for all shipping.

Above all ignore the fact that the direct route from the US to the
Philippines was dominated by Japanese airbases.

2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.

Do you need the facts?

Translation movie characters are on the way out for the moment,
writers of bad conspiracy theories are put in place.

I can give you more than you bargained for,for example check out:
FOIA#F-1998-00977

The claim attached to the above magic numbers, is

"CIA Director Allen Dulles told people that US was warned in
mid-November that the Japanese Fleet had sailed east past
Tokyo Bay and was going to attack Pearl Harbor. "

Note by the way the CIA is now a good guy source, since it is
apparently telling us what the conspiracy wants. This is used
by Mark Willey in his attempts to prove the conspiracy. Mark's
standard of proof has things like FDR assassinating Joe Kennedy,
based on a single sentence from Kennedy senior.

By the way if you are going to be silly enough to quote Mark Willey's
ideas of research I assume you subscribe to his claims the conspiracy
extended to trying to lose Coral Sea and Midway, that Pearl Harbor
never received any help in cracking JB-25B, they had to do it all by
themselves from scratch?

Quoting Mark Willey is a sign of desperation. You should see his
careful editing of documents.

3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted

Posted with Auto poster ?

3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted

4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.

Posted with Autoposter?

4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.

1) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.

You have outright lied here the famed McCollum memo IS the blueprint for FDRs
Japan policy and the date of McCollum memo is Oct.7,1940,so not after Pearl
Harbor like you have claimed.

This is quite funny, it appears my posting the memo with the date
on it is telling lies about the date. McCollum memo below.

I will be interested to see where I have ever claimed the memo was
written post 7 December 1941.

My summary of the memo,

So 8 recommendations, the first 4 were not followed, the fifth was not
followed at the time, though more submarines were sent and then even
more in late 1941, the sixth and seventh had already happened before
the memo was written, the eighth finally happened around 9 months
later and only after further Japanese expansion.

Just remember the memo is the claimed blueprint for US government
policy.

All of this had to be deleted, along with the fact the memo never made
it beyond McCollums boss. So claim dropped.

Apparently you have run out of arguments to prove your case.

Hey Denyav's delete key has broken.

Heck I expected much better than that from you initially.

Hey, I had to find something else to do this lunchtime, even with two
replies to put all the deleted text back into.

The rest is largely deleted text, just the key points this time, the amount of
text being ignored has grown too large.

I pinched the memo "highlights" from another post, note how the
memo is addressed to the directors, not someone in the white
house, yet it is supposed to make it to FDR in time for him to
make it the lunchtime conversation the next day, the "proof" FDR
saw the memo, just ignore the diary of the person FDR lunched with.

"Op-16-F-2 ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) 7 October 1940
Memorandum For The Directors
Subject: ESTIMATE OF THE SITUATION IN THE PACIFIC AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR ACTION OF THE UNITED STATES..."

A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British
bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore."

The USN did not use British bases until after the war started.
There was a conference in Manila about cooperation but it
ended with the sighting of the IJN invasion convoys heading
for Malaya. So this never happened pre war.

By the way the German Japanese naval base agreement
had been signed in 1940 or earlier.

"B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities
and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies" (now Indonesia)."

As for point A. Never happened pre war.

"C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang
Kai-shek."

30 aircraft in 1940, 141 in 1941, compared with 1,507 for the
British in 1940 and 5,249 in 1941. The USSR received more
aircraft than China, in fact the "other foreign" column has 787
aircraft delivered at the US factories. All possible aid would
have been a lot more aircraft for a start.

By the way the 30 aircraft for China in 1940 were trainers,
70 of the 1941 aircraft were trainers, 53 fighters, 18 light bombers.

So I presume the German sale of 12 aircraft to China in 1937
is an indicator Germany is giving all aid as well?

How about the German military advisors present on the Chinese
side in the late 1930s? I think they were withdrawn in 1939.

"D. Send a division of long-range heavy cruisers to the western
Pacific, the Philippines and Singapore."

Didn't happen, hint Manila is in the western pacific, it had a heavy
and a light cruiser plus the occasional extra cruiser passing through.

"E. Send two divisions of submarines to the western Pacific."

There were already USN submarines based in Manila, and the
memo's ideas of reinforcements was not followed. As a guide
to the changes note the USN had 96 submarines available, some
in reserve, in September 1939, the older boats were brought out
of reserve after war began in Europe and the total number
available grew steadily to 112 by the end of November 1941.

By the way USN submarine deployments to Manila from
DANFS, according to my by hand counts.

11/24 (yes 24) onward S-36, S-37, S-38, S-39, S-40, S-41

7/1925 to 5/1932 S-30, S-31, S-32, S-33, S-34, S-35

So until the depression the USN had 12 submarines present.

12/39 onward Porpoise, Pike, Tarpon, Perch, Pickerel, Permit

So the 12 submarine force is restored.

1939 Searaven "two years before war" my bet it should be with the
5 following submarines to make another 6 ship squadron and
arrived at the end of 1940.

1940 Seawolf (autumn)

10 or 11/40 Stingray, Seadragon, Sealion
12/40 Shark

1941 month unknown Snapper (probably 11/41), Sailfish (after 3/41
at least since that was the month it started a refit in the US)

11/41 Salmon, Seal, Sturgeon, Sargo, Saury, Spearfish, Sculpin,
Swordfish, Skipjack

Total 29, the force at the start of the war, I think 4 were
refitting on 8 December.

"F. Keep the main strength of the U.S. fleet, now in the Pacific, in
the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands."

Done before the memo was written, the memo is dated in October,
the basing decision was on 1 May 1940.

"G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for
undue economic concessions, Particularly oil."

Add the British as well, it made no sense for the US to
embargo oil if the Dutch and British would replace the
lost sales. The US did not need to do much to persuade
the Dutch, the Japanese idea of terms of trade did much
to persuade the Dutch extra trade was not worth it.

"H. Completely embargo all trade with Japan, in collaboration
with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire."

Finally happened, however the memo forgets to add the Dutch
to the embargo.

FDR had imposed trade embargoes on aviation fuel, lubricants
and high grade scrap metal on 25 July 1940. On 26 September
scrap iron was added to the list.

In the first week in October, that is just before the memo was written
the US ordered all Americans out of the far east, called up the naval
reserve and authorised Anglo-American staff talks in Singapore.
Additional supplies were sent to the Philippines as well.

Remember folks, the memo is supposed to be the blueprint, apparently
able to influence decisions before it was written.

The Japanese negotiations with the Dutch over oil finally ended in the
first week in October, with no gains for the Japanese.

"10. If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act
of war, so much the better. At all event we must be fully
prepared to accept the treat of war."

Yes, Japan preferred war to giving up the chance to colonise China.

So 8 recommendations, the first 4 were not followed, the fifth was not
followed at the time, though more submarines were sent and then even
more in late 1941, the sixth and seventh had already happened before
the memo was written, the eighth finally happened around 9 months
later and only after further Japanese expansion.

Just remember the memo is the claimed blueprint for US government
policy.

Japanese is a very context sensitive language, one of the major
efforts of the translators was to take broken out code groups and
try and figure out the meaning of the groups, the code recovery work.

Think of it this way

11111 22222 33333 44444 11111 55555.

Now tell me the meaning.

How about

The 22222 33333 44444 the 55555.

We are reading 1/3 of the message folks.

Another clue.

The 22222 33333 on the 55555.

50% readable now, surely the text is obvious.

The cat 33333 on the 55555.

2/3 readable.

The cat sat on the 55555.

Think you can fill in the final word?

Of course the message "The cat 33333 on the 55555."
could be "The cat slept on the chair".

The translators did much more than translating decrypted documents.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only targe

Naval Court of Inqury exonarated Kimmel because they consider so called War
Message as an attempt to direct the attention away from Pearl Harbor rather
than warning.

1)Nov.25: Yamamato's Target Pearl Harbor message to the First Air Fleet
intercepted and read

2)Nov.26: So called War Warning message designed to draw attention away from
Pearl Harbor issued

3)Nov.26: Merchant shipping routes in Pasific changed so that Japanase Task
Force could sail to Hawaii without being seen by allied Merchant ships.

4)But caring US president did not forget to ask Red Cross to prepare secretly
for the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor eight days before Pearl Harbor attack.

Conspiracy is wrong word to define Pearl Harbor incident.There is no conspiracy
at all.Everything is honestly and simply planned and many times admitted.


"FDR stated that we were likely to be attacked perhaps as soon as next
Monday..The question was how we should maneuver into the position firing the
first shot without too much danger to ourselves.
In spite of risk involved,however,in letting the Japanase to fire the first
shot,we realized that in order to have full support of the American people,it
was desirable to make sure that the Japanase be the ones to do this so that
there should remain no doubt in anyone's mind as to who were the Aggressors"

Henry Stimson,Nov.25,1941


"As America becomes an increasingly multicultural society,it may find it more
difficult to fashion consensus on foreign policy issues,except in yhe
circumstances of a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat"

Zbigniew Brzezinski, The Grand Chessboard,1997

"..the process of transformation..is likely to be long one,absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event-like a new Pearl Harbor"

Rebuilding Americas Defenses,Sep.2000

"The other day a reporter friend told me that one of the highest ranking CIA
officials had said to him,off the record,when the dust finally clears the
Americans will see that 9/11 was a triumph for the intelligence community,not a
failure.

CIA agent Baer,See no Evil,2002

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 7.
Now we are into claims being simply recycled, so be aware around 95%
of my text is simply putting back in the text Denyav simply has to drop,
nothing new here really, apart from the modern quotes. I timed my effort
at 10 minutes plus the 5 minute review before sending. Apart from point
23 below, search for "Hey some original text." as the marker for the start
of non deleted text

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.
19) JN-25 was an "easy" code, claim dropped.
20) Churchill quote meaning, claim dropped.
21) If you know one thing perfectly you must know another thing perfectly
(in an attempt to "prove" 1941 = 2001)
22) The war warnings become a blind rather than identifying Pearl as
the target.
23) Allen Dulles, CIA chief saying they knew in 1941, claim dropped.

Let the laughs begin. Or more particularly Denyav's tour of web
sites looking for irrelevant quotes.

Denyav wrote in message ...
the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only targe

Naval Court of Inqury exonarated Kimmel because they consider so called War
Message as an attempt to direct the attention away from Pearl Harbor rather
than warning.

6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.

I like this, the results are secret but Denyav knows all. Organisations
investigating themselves cannot be trusted, but the USN can be when
it investigates itself. Remember in conspiracy theory the story validates
the source, not the source validates the story.

1)Nov.25: Yamamato's Target Pearl Harbor message to the First Air Fleet
intercepted and read

The many times deleted text,

"You mean the one the IJN couriered to the fleet in Hittokapu bay?
You see IJN custom was to send such orders by courier. Things
like making sure the rest of the IJN was not eavesdropping on
such sensitive information. After all any ship or shore station in
the fleet that picked up the message could take a look at the
contents and Yamamoto wanted it to be a secret operation.

The Nurse character in the Pearl Harbor movie told you right?

It is quite simple, when Denyav actually tries to put a source for the
claims up it is shot down, so we are left with claims with no proof."

2)Nov.26: So called War Warning message designed to draw attention
away from Pearl Harbor issued


Deleted text,

"Yes folks, I suppose people are aware of what else happened on
26 November, the transmission of the US terms for negotiations
to the Japanese. In effect a restatement of the original US terms,
ones Japan had already said were unacceptable. The US was
also aware of the 29 November "Things are automatically going
to happen" deadline for negotiations to succeed in Japanese
terms.

Strange isn't it, the diplomats conclude negotiations are off, so
the time has come to send a war warning. Instead the great
conspiracy has to decide because they happened on the
same date they must be related.

Just forget the allies were not decoding JN-25 in November
1941, that the message in question was not radioed according
to the IJN, that intercepted messages from the Pacific came
to Washington via airmail and sea mail, but this message,
never radioed, never decoded, was decoded in real time and
sent to Washington in real time and in an instant the US
organised a cover up, for the people in the Pacific and Washington
and London and the Dutch."

By the way the IJN never used the words Pearl Harbor in a JN-25B
message, it had a geographic designator, remember AF = Midway
and the way the USN had to send the famous fresh water message
to remove doubts about what AF stood for? But do not worry about
this, just assume perfect US knowledge pre war and then they lose
it as soon as war is declared.

3)Nov.26: Merchant shipping routes in Pasific changed so that Japanase Task
Force could sail to Hawaii without being seen by allied Merchant ships.


deleted text,

yes folks, if FDR wore green socks on 26 November that is a signal.
Sneezing twice was the go code. Anything that happens on 26
November is to be considered proof of whatever is wanted proven.

By the way work out the sailing time from the US to the mid Pacific
and note if the US wanted to avoid interceptions the ban needed to
be in place before the IJN sailed. Also note the US did not control
all allied shipping, only US and there were Soviet freighters moving
between Siberia and the US west coast. So much for all shipping.

Above all ignore the fact that the direct route from the US to the
Philippines was dominated by Japanese airbases.

4)But caring US president did not forget to ask Red Cross to prepare secretly
for the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor eight days before Pearl Harbor attack.

Hey some original text.

Web site trawl, just ignore the Red Cross in Hawaii had been preparing
for war since March 1941, that 8 days before the attack was the expiry
of the date set by the Japanese for negotiations to succeed and that
Hawaii was the main US base in the Pacific, where you stockpile
supplies.

Conspiracy is wrong word to define Pearl Harbor incident.There is no
conspiracy at all.Everything is honestly and simply planned and many
times admitted.

Holy writ moment it seems. No proof.

"FDR stated that we were likely to be attacked perhaps as soon as next
Monday..The question was how we should maneuver into the position firing the
first shot without too much danger to ourselves.
In spite of risk involved,however,in letting the Japanase to fire the first
shot,we realized that in order to have full support of the American people,it
was desirable to make sure that the Japanase be the ones to do this so that
there should remain no doubt in anyone's mind as to who were the Aggressors"

Henry Stimson,Nov.25,1941

Gasp, Stimson is allowing the Japanese to attack the Philippines,
Guam, Wake and US shipping before allowing the US military to
shoot back. Shocking. No mention of Pearl Harbor of course, but
clearly the absence of an admission is an admission. Conspiracies
come in even numbers, the original and the cover up.

"As America becomes an increasingly multicultural society,it may find it more
difficult to fashion consensus on foreign policy issues,except in yhe
circumstances of a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat"

Zbigniew Brzezinski, The Grand Chessboard,1997

hey how about that a pluralist society has more difficulty reaching
consensus.

"..the process of transformation..is likely to be long one,absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event-like a new Pearl Harbor"

Rebuilding Americas Defenses,Sep.2000

How about that, peace time military build ups are slower, and you
also do not have the ability to test things in combat, slowing things
down more.

"The other day a reporter friend told me that one of the highest ranking CIA
officials had said to him,off the record,when the dust finally clears the
Americans will see that 9/11 was a triumph for the intelligence community,not a
failure.

CIA agent Baer,See no Evil,2002

This is funny, either the community fumbled the warnings, bad move,
or the community is supposed to have allowed things, very bad move.
Above all he said he said is taken as proof of conspiracy and not an
attempt to turn the situation to advantage. By the way the book makes
the claims the US intelligence system is badly flawed, which makes it
unable to find conspiracies, let alone run them. So an attempt to spin
the result is taken as proof of conspiracies using a book that makes
it clear such a conspiracy could not happen.

Just remember folks, the US is so good it cannot be defeated,
only betrayed from within, the US government sees all, knows all.
The US compensates for this wonder ability by making sure
elected leaders betray the country on a regular basis, think of it
as a universal US presidential hobby.

Denyav has real problems if the above is supposed to explain what
happened in 1941.

I will ignore putting the deleted text back in this time, the McCollum
memo, war warnings text and so on.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Now we are into claims being simply recycled, so be aware around 95%
of my text is simply putting back in the text Denyav simply has to drop,
nothing new here really, apart from the modern quotes. I timed my effort
at 10 minutes plus the 5 minute

You are very versed in using many detractors in your posts,but you seem to
forget the main rule:

Bad Policy cannot be corrected by excellent Strategy,bad Strategy cannot be
saved by excellent tactics.

If we put your detractors aside and summarize your most current position,we
find out :

1)According to you every statement no matter if they originated from
Stimson,Dulles,Churchill,Casey,Popov,Weiijeman,Gen .Thorpe,Hoover,Capt.Holc
wick,Dies Lieb etc is IRRELEVANT for the Pearl Harbor incident if they point to
a direction other than official direction.

2)You have finally admitted,after resisting long time to do so,that the
Japanase blundered away JN25B code.
You have also finally admitted that US took advantage of Japanase blunder and
recovered almost 5000 JN25B codes before March 1941.
But according to you US,that was able to recover 5000 codes in only a few
months,suddenly stopped recovering codes in March 1941 !!!!!.

I guess in March 1941, USN came under command of Yamamato and he stopped all
code recovering work as that could be dangerous for IJN in nearing conflict.


Thats your current position absent your detractors.
Truly amazing position indeed.
Cheers.

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 7.
Now we are into Denyav debating nothing new here really, I timed my effort
at 5 minutes plus the 5 minute review before sending.

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.
19) JN-25 was an "easy" code, claim dropped.
20) Churchill quote meaning, claim dropped.
21) If you know one thing perfectly you must know another thing perfectly
(in an attempt to "prove" 1941 = 2001)
22) The war warnings become a blind rather than identifying Pearl as
the target. It would seem Denyav finally read the text after I posted it.
23) Allen Dulles, CIA chief saying they knew in 1941, claim dropped.
24) Denyav is now simply inventing things I have supposed to have said.

Denyav wrote in message ...
Now we are into claims being simply recycled, so be aware around 95%
of my text is simply putting back in the text Denyav simply has to drop,
nothing new here really, apart from the modern quotes. I timed my effort
at 10 minutes plus the 5 minute

You are very versed in using many detractors in your posts,but you seem to
forget the main rule:

Bad Policy cannot be corrected by excellent Strategy,bad Strategy cannot be
saved by excellent tactics.

Yes folks the non answer is the strategy.

If we put your detractors aside and summarize your most current position,we
find out :

1)According to you every statement no matter if they originated from
Stimson,Dulles,Churchill,Casey,Popov,Weiijeman,Ge n.Thorpe,Hoover,Capt.Holc
wick,Dies Lieb etc is IRRELEVANT for the Pearl Harbor incident if they point to
a direction other than official direction.

According to me the statements being used do not support the
conspiracy. By the way folks, no mention has been made for "Casey,
Popov, WGen.Thorpe,Hoover,Capt.Holcwick and "Lieb" before this
but do not worry, if you are going to lie about someone else, lie about
the discussion as well.

I like the way the Churchill quote cannot survive with the extra text
a few pages later being noted.

I like the fact the following Stimson quote is apparently confirming he
knew about the attack before hand.

"FDR stated that we were likely to be attacked perhaps as soon as next
Monday..The question was how should we maneuver them into position of firing
the first shot without too much danger to ourselves. In spite of risk involved,
however, in letting Japanase to fire the first shot, we realized that in order
to have full support of the American people it was desirable to make sure that
the Japanese be the ones to do this so that there should remain no doubt in
anyone's mind as to who were the Aggressors"

Henry Stimson, The Secretary of War,Nov.25,1941

Congratulations on a non relevant quote, by the way ever going to tell
us why the invasion of the Philippines, Wake and Guam and attacks
on US shipping were not enough for first shot honours? By the way the
above is apparently proof Stimson is admitting to allowing the Pearl
Harbor attack, as opposed to admitting he was not going to allow the
US to start shooting first.

Remember the isolationists, plus those that opposed FDR? The US
was a democracy, people actually differed from the government and
were allowed to. Such people were against the government starting
a war without congressional approval at least.

By the way "Next Monday" for someone writing on 25 November 1941
is 1 December 1941. Amazing how FDR knew the Japanese were
going to attack on 30 November 1941, the day after the 29 November
deadline the Japanese had set. Oh that's right, throw away all the
predictions that were incorrect and only ever mention the ones that
were correct, conspiracies need such help.

2)You have finally admitted,after resisting long time to do so,that the
Japanase blundered away JN25B code.

Translation Denyav needed to rewind to the start and simply lie about
what I have said.

You have also finally admitted that US took advantage of Japanase blunder
and recovered almost 5000 JN25B codes before March 1941.

This is what I said, in a different thread,

The codes in question were the A5 and B5 versions. That is the code
book was changed from A to B but the additive (random number) book
was left at 5. In August 1945 the USN noted it had 4,907 out of 50,000
additives for the 5 book. Which explains quite well why the main effect
of the failure to change additive books did not compromise the code
values, but did compromise the fact the basic code system was still in use.

If it did compromise the code values then it should have compromised
the A version as well, yet the USN reports knowing around 5% of the
code values when work stopped around March 1941.

You see it is quite simple announce every random number recovered
is a JN-25B code book value, totally different thing of course but do not
let that stop you. Please continue this line, it shows how wrong you are.

But according to you US,that was able to recover 5000 codes in only a few
months,suddenly stopped recovering codes in March 1941 !!!!!.

Yes folks, Denyav has to announce he does not want to know multiple
times. The % additive book came into service on 1 October 1940 and
went out of service on 31 January 1941. It increased the size of the
random number tables from 30,000 to 50,000, plus allowing the clerk
to start from any column, not column 1 of a row on the chosen page.
This further required changes to the message group where the sender
told the receiver what random numbers were used. Helps explain why
the USN had less than 10% of the book after 4 months.

I guess in March 1941, USN came under command of Yamamato and
he stopped all code recovering work as that could be dangerous for IJN
in nearing conflict.

This would presumably explain the IJN conspiracy to lose at Midway.

Thats your current position absent your detractors.

Yes folks, Denyav needs to do both sides of the debate, it stops
the facts intruding.

Truly amazing position indeed.

Translation, Denyav now needs to reply to himself in order to look
like he has any facts.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email