US club class definition

I understand the difficulty the rules committee faces attempting to encourage participation. Participation in the last 3 club class nationals would've been significantly lower if only FAI Club Class gliders had been allowed.

Part of the trouble is what people perception of the class is vs. what it was originally designed for.

I actually don't know for sure what the original intent of the club class was. It was developed before I was involved in the sport and way before I was involved in competition.

I had this idea that the purpose of the club class was to give a competition home to gliders which are no longer competitive. Including modern standard class gliders doesn't seem to fit with that idea.

Just like you were interested in expansion in order to give your ASW-20B a place to compete, i am interested in keeping my Std. Cirrus competitive.

Interesting to me that the FAI list includes the Std Cirrus B with 16 meter tips installed. But, you can't put winglets on those tips. So much for it being limited to 15 meter span sailplanes...

Steve Leonard

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 2:00:03 PM UTC-5, Steve Leonard wrote:
Interesting to me that the FAI list includes the Std Cirrus B with 16 meter tips installed. But, you can't put winglets on those tips. So much for it being limited to 15 meter span sailplanes...

Steve Leonard

That's getting fixed, I think....

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:38:51 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
I understand the difficulty the rules committee faces attempting to encourage participation. Participation in the last 3 club class nationals would've been significantly lower if only FAI Club Class gliders had been allowed..

Part of the trouble is what people perception of the class is vs. what it was originally designed for.

I actually don't know for sure what the original intent of the club class was. It was developed before I was involved in the sport and way before I was involved in competition.

I had this idea that the purpose of the club class was to give a competition home to gliders which are no longer competitive. Including modern standard class gliders doesn't seem to fit with that idea.

Just like you were interested in expansion in order to give your ASW-20B a place to compete, i am interested in keeping my Std. Cirrus competitive.

None of the ships added are game changers. In fact the std class ships are slightly lower performance (by CH handicap) than the ASW-20, so they don't change the race *at all*. The addition of Ventus A&B, most often now flown with winglets, moves the top performing ships out 1% or so on handicap.

Where's the harm?

best,
Evan

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:03:18 PM UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:38:51 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
I understand the difficulty the rules committee faces attempting to encourage participation. Participation in the last 3 club class nationals would've been significantly lower if only FAI Club Class gliders had been allowed.

Part of the trouble is what people perception of the class is vs. what it was originally designed for.

I actually don't know for sure what the original intent of the club class was. It was developed before I was involved in the sport and way before I was involved in competition.

I had this idea that the purpose of the club class was to give a competition home to gliders which are no longer competitive. Including modern standard class gliders doesn't seem to fit with that idea.

Just like you were interested in expansion in order to give your ASW-20B a place to compete, i am interested in keeping my Std. Cirrus competitive..

None of the ships added are game changers. In fact the std class ships are slightly lower performance (by CH handicap) than the ASW-20, so they don't change the race *at all*. The addition of Ventus A&B, most often now flown with winglets, moves the top performing ships out 1% or so on handicap.

Where's the harm?

best,
Evan

As the top end of the range moves up, 1% at a time, and the bottom end gets chopped off, those of us now close to the bottom start to get a little nervous, that's all.

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 2:31:55 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:03:18 PM UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:38:51 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
I understand the difficulty the rules committee faces attempting to encourage participation. Participation in the last 3 club class nationals would've been significantly lower if only FAI Club Class gliders had been allowed.

Part of the trouble is what people perception of the class is vs. what it was originally designed for.

I actually don't know for sure what the original intent of the club class was. It was developed before I was involved in the sport and way before I was involved in competition.

I had this idea that the purpose of the club class was to give a competition home to gliders which are no longer competitive. Including modern standard class gliders doesn't seem to fit with that idea.

Just like you were interested in expansion in order to give your ASW-20B a place to compete, i am interested in keeping my Std. Cirrus competitive.

None of the ships added are game changers. In fact the std class ships are slightly lower performance (by CH handicap) than the ASW-20, so they don't change the race *at all*. The addition of Ventus A&B, most often now flown with winglets, moves the top performing ships out 1% or so on handicap.

Where's the harm?

best,
Evan

As the top end of the range moves up, 1% at a time, and the bottom end gets chopped off, those of us now close to the bottom start to get a little nervous, that's all.

Complaints would be pretty loud if the RC suggested cutting Std Cirrus, LS-1, ASW-15, Std Libelle, don't you think? I'd complain...

I'll go out on a limb and state that no one is going to offer a successful argument to add 27s and V2s to Club while those ships remain competitive in 15m.

best,
Evan

Interesting, I have owned my Ventus B for 20 years and although I am not competitive with current production models in FAI class comps, I have only entered FAI 15 meter comps. And always getting my butt handed to me � Being included in club class I would consider competing in that class if for no other reason to see if it's me or the ship, even though I already know that answer. Now if only participation in the West would rise to the point that we could have Club class contests.

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 3:44:39 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Interesting, I have owned my Ventus B for 20 years and although I am not competitive with current production models in FAI class comps, I have only entered FAI 15 meter comps. And always getting my butt handed to me � Being included in club class I would consider competing in that class if for no other reason to see if it's me or the ship, even though I already know that answer. Now if only participation in the West would rise to the point that we could have Club class contests.

Hobbs this summer!

What is needed internationally is a two class Club Class A and B - for
higher and lower performing 'obsolescent' ships - would be far better
than the ill thought out 13.5 m class - which is now producing mini-
15m class ships, costing 100k or more.
Maybe something like Ka6e to Asw19b -class A, LS4 to Ventus/LS6 -
class B ?

Don't see why it should be a span limited class either. Should be based
on handicap. - let in the Kestrels, Open Cirri ect.

Ka6e's, SHK's and Open Cirrus's have all flown in UK Club Class
Nationals before.

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 2:31:55 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:03:18 PM UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:38:51 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
I understand the difficulty the rules committee faces attempting to encourage participation. Participation in the last 3 club class nationals would've been significantly lower if only FAI Club Class gliders had been allowed.

Part of the trouble is what people perception of the class is vs. what it was originally designed for.

I actually don't know for sure what the original intent of the club class was. It was developed before I was involved in the sport and way before I was involved in competition.

I had this idea that the purpose of the club class was to give a competition home to gliders which are no longer competitive. Including modern standard class gliders doesn't seem to fit with that idea.

Just like you were interested in expansion in order to give your ASW-20B a place to compete, i am interested in keeping my Std. Cirrus competitive.

None of the ships added are game changers. In fact the std class ships are slightly lower performance (by CH handicap) than the ASW-20, so they don't change the race *at all*. The addition of Ventus A&B, most often now flown with winglets, moves the top performing ships out 1% or so on handicap.

Where's the harm?

best,
Evan

As the top end of the range moves up, 1% at a time, and the bottom end gets chopped off, those of us now close to the bottom start to get a little nervous, that's all.

The reason for .898 was to let LS-6 and Ventus onto the list. Following the general trend of the IGC list that allowed the ASW-20, we shifted slightly to get these other contemporary gliders included. There is no plan to change where we are in range in the future as far out as we can see.
UH