All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

#popcorn time on a snowy Monday in Michigan. Thanks Evan!

On the surface, I tend to agree with Evan. Motor-gliders can take slightly (or significantly) more risk. Over many attempts to break a record, this ability to stretch further accumulates and ultimately, IMO, makes a HUGE difference. I can see this in contest soaring more and more. Motorgliders make great sense on a practical level, but they are simply not pure gliders. We should respect that and not "downplay it" or pretend that difference doesn't exist. It does exist, no question about it. Anyone who downplays the advantages motorgliders enjoy on cross country flight (especially contest or record flying) is, simply put, not being honest. The data cannot show this difference, of course, nice try. Regardless, an clear advantage exists for motorgliders and therefore allowing them into the pure glider record category is arguably unfair. It will ultimately hurt record flying (for the foreseeable future) as some pure glider pilots who currently pursue records will choose not to bother as they cannot afford the additional motoglider expense. It also leaves a bad taste in certain cases, which I can understand.

In 20 years most all gliders will be motor-gliders. But that doesn't change the fact that they do have a clear advantage, especially in long record flights. Pure glider records deserve to be highly respected. Motorgliders can disable still their motors easily for record attempts and prove that they have achieved a true "apples to apples" soaring record vs pure gliders. Or they can just have the motorglider record which will become more and more competitive and prestigious over time as motorgliders begin to outnumber pure gliders.

That said, I also strongly believe that the time for the US having its "own systems for everything" (rules, records, handicaps, etc) is at an end. Each case of the US running its own system has proven to be incredibly inefficient and provides no measurable positive value to our sport. Why do we allow this? Why do we waste our time? In many cases the great effort required to managing our own custom US systems is arguably highly negative. We should simply adopt the FAI systems and participate in the soaring world as all other soaring countries do, rather than standing alone in the far corner of the soaring world with our arms crossed and mumbling about the genius of our (for example) scoring system (like the SSA GOBs force us all to do today).

Let's put an end to all of this US nonsense across the board, shall we?

Sean

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 9:26:19 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
#popcorn time on a snowy Monday in Michigan. Thanks Evan!

On the surface, I tend to agree with Evan. Motor-gliders can take slightly (or significantly) more risk. Over many attempts to break a record, this ability to stretch further accumulates and ultimately, IMO, makes a HUGE difference. I can see this in contest soaring more and more. Motorgliders make great sense on a practical level, but they are simply not pure gliders. We should respect that and not "downplay it" or pretend that difference doesn't exist. It does exist, no question about it. Anyone who downplays the advantages motorgliders enjoy on cross country flight (especially contest or record flying) is, simply put, not being honest. The data cannot show this difference, of course, nice try. Regardless, an clear advantage exists for motorgliders and therefore allowing them into the pure glider record category is arguably unfair. It will ultimately hurt record flying (for the foreseeable future) as some pure glider pilots who currently pursue records will choose not to bother as they cannot afford the additional motoglider expense. It also leaves a bad taste in certain cases, which I can understand.

In 20 years most all gliders will be motor-gliders. But that doesn't change the fact that they do have a clear advantage, especially in long record flights. Pure glider records deserve to be highly respected. Motorgliders can disable still their motors easily for record attempts and prove that they have achieved a true "apples to apples" soaring record vs pure gliders.. Or they can just have the motorglider record which will become more and more competitive and prestigious over time as motorgliders begin to outnumber pure gliders.

That said, I also strongly believe that the time for the US having its "own systems for everything" (rules, records, handicaps, etc) is at an end. Each case of the US running its own system has proven to be incredibly inefficient and provides no measurable positive value to our sport. Why do we allow this? Why do we waste our time? In many cases the great effort required to managing our own custom US systems is arguably highly negative. We should simply adopt the FAI systems and participate in the soaring world as all other soaring countries do, rather than standing alone in the far corner of the soaring world with our arms crossed and mumbling about the genius of our (for example) scoring system (like the SSA GOBs force us all to do today).

Let's put an end to all of this US nonsense across the board, shall we?

Sean

snipThe data cannot show this difference, of course/snip

Of course. The difference is an alternative fact.

There may be some motorglider pilots that fly too low into unlandable terrain. This is an advantage, but a self correcting problem. Other than that, the motor saves the inconvenience and cost of a retrieve, nothing more. The cost is questionable, as the price of the motor is far more than either a lifetime of air retrieves or a paid help crew. The convenience is undeniable.. Should there be a separate record for people who have paid for the convenience of a one man rigging outfit? Should there be a separate record for the convenience of a glider with automatic connecting controls? Should motorgliders get a speed bonus, due to the inconvenient extra maintenance and expense required?

I have no problem with a separate "pure" glider record in the US. Given that worldwide 80% of new gliders have motors, this will become an increasingly esoteric corner of soaring. We still keep 1-26 records right? But along with that I demand categories separated by wing loading, which has a far greater affect on speed and distance.

Imagine if, in sailing, there were separate records for racing yachts with no engine. No one has ever even considered such a foolish idea. Yet at one time, they were all engineless.

On 3/13/2017 12:40 PM, jfitch wrote:
Snip...

There may be some motorglider pilots that fly too low into unlandable
terrain. This is an advantage, but a self correcting problem. Other than
that, the motor saves the inconvenience and cost of a retrieve, nothing
more. The cost is questionable, as the price of the motor is far more than
either a lifetime of air retrieves or a paid help crew. The convenience is
undeniable. Should there be a separate record for people who have paid for
the convenience of a one man rigging outfit? Should there be a separate
record for the convenience of a glider with automatic connecting controls?
Should motorgliders get a speed bonus, due to the inconvenient extra
maintenance and expense required?

Hmmm...and trying to reiterate a point I sought to make in an earlier post...

Extracting a quote (since I raised cost as a very real distinguishing issue
between engineless and powered sailplanes to many 'Joe Average' glider types
[e.g. me] in an earlier post): "The cost is questionable, as the price of the
motor is far more than either a lifetime of air retrieves or a paid help
crew." Maybe I missed it when I used to work in various businesses requiring
engineering support (the 'excess salary' they threw my direction therefrom
supporting my glidering), but both the business and myself accounted
distinctly differently between large capital expenses (e.g. my glider) and
running costs. So what if in the long run the total cash outlay happens to
come out 'relatively even?' (I've never sought to check.) It's meaningless to
the guy paying the bill (whether from future company profits, or saved 'excess
salary'). What matters is, "Can I afford/risk it given today's cashflow?"

And to go from ignoring capital cost as a seriously distinguishing difference
between "pure" and "auxiliary-powered" sailplanes, to "reductio ad absurdum"
rhetorical questions, doesn't change the fact that equating pure/powered
categories by no longer distinguishing between the categories is - in a
record-keeping sense - to bureaucratically pretend apples and oranges are
equivalent. It simply ain't so...


I have no problem with a separate "pure" glider record in the US. Given
that worldwide 80% of new gliders have motors, this will become an
increasingly esoteric corner of soaring. We still keep 1-26 records right?
But along with that I demand categories separated by wing loading, which
has a far greater affect on speed and distance.

Have at it. Maybe IGC will listen, since they would appear ready to entertain
at least one other spurious category.

Respectfully,
Bob W.