All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

But the option DOES come in to play. If the motor glider is successful in hooking that thermal in non-landable terrain, the record is claimed. In general records are not claimed if the glider got low, and no records are claimed where the engine was required to start on course. The concept of there being recordable data of the unsuccessful attempts is just not valid.

I am NOT saying that one group is inferior to another, which is why I said the logic stands that if we are going to collapse the record list we should get rid of these classes too because there is no measurable difference between a male, female, or junior pilot in terms of capability, performance, or handicap. But we choose to keep these records as they are instead of taking away opportunities to set a diverse variety of records.

Other sports do have age group records such as weightlifting. I would not expect an 80+ year old weightlifter to compete for records against the 22 year old Olympic Record holder. But maybe there is no measurable difference for that to matter either since the older lifter has had longer to train or some other obscure logic that one comes up with.

We can try to rationalize some outlandish equivalency between motor gliders and real gliders, or we can just agree that the system should be (have been) left alone with separate classes for the two. Motor gliders deserve to hold records too, but in their own class. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". The system wasn't broken until they went and added this ridiculous modification.

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:23:24 PM UTC-7, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
But the option DOES come in to play. If the motor glider is successful in hooking that thermal in non-landable terrain, the record is claimed. In general records are not claimed if the glider got low, and no records are claimed where the engine was required to start on course. The concept of there being recordable data of the unsuccessful attempts is just not valid.

I am NOT saying that one group is inferior to another, which is why I said the logic stands that if we are going to collapse the record list we should get rid of these classes too because there is no measurable difference between a male, female, or junior pilot in terms of capability, performance, or handicap. But we choose to keep these records as they are instead of taking away opportunities to set a diverse variety of records.

Other sports do have age group records such as weightlifting. I would not expect an 80+ year old weightlifter to compete for records against the 22 year old Olympic Record holder. But maybe there is no measurable difference for that to matter either since the older lifter has had longer to train or some other obscure logic that one comes up with.

We can try to rationalize some outlandish equivalency between motor gliders and real gliders, or we can just agree that the system should be (have been) left alone with separate classes for the two. Motor gliders deserve to hold records too, but in their own class. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". The system wasn't broken until they went and added this ridiculous modification.

snip If the motor glider is successful in hooking that thermal in non-landable terrain, the record is claimed./snip Show me a single instance in a national record. Furthermore, look at the traces of all the non claimed record attempts flown the same year. They are all posted for you to see. Show me the low saves over unlandable terrain. You claim this is rampant, yet cannot provide a single example, even though all of these flight logs are available to anyone in seconds. Your claims are simply false, without merit, unsupported by evidence of any kind. Are they based on "alternative facts"? You allege thoughts, motives, and actions to record holding motorglider pilots without either knowledge or experience. That is deplorable. I do not doubt that there are motorglider pilots who engage in engine start low saves over unlandable terrain - its a big world with a lot of different people in it. These pilots are not record setting pilots though.

I encourage everyone to look for themselves. Sign into OLC, pick a record holding pilot like Mitch Polinsky or Jim Payne, pick a year that the record was claimed. In the flight book, scroll down the flights that month. Hover the cursor over each flight and you will see the altitude trace including ground clearance. Engine runs are shown in yellow and subsequent trace in grey. This will take you 5 minutes time. Record attempts are not made out here on weak days. The working band on the strong days is generally 13,000 - 18,000 feet, over terrain that is roughly 5000 ft. At 50:1 you have 75 miles glide once you get "low". For all of 2016 (in which many records were set) Mitch Polinsky's log files shows 1 inflight engine start (directly over Ely airport on 7/15) for the entire year. In 2014 (another record year) I count 5 engine starts in 34 flights, 4 in the immediate vicinity of airports, one within glide of an airstrip. All of the potential landing sites air and car retrievable. In 2015, 3 times, all in the immediate vicinity of airports/airstrips.

In the Great Basin, where almost all of the currently held records where flown, there are very, very few "suitable landing sites" that are not airports or airstrips. What looks like flat desert is rock strewn, sagebrush covered, glider breaking rough and tumble desert range. What looks like a dry lake is an alkali swamp. This isn't Kansas, there aren't any plowed corn fields.

I get it. You don't like motorgliders, they offend your sense of what a "pure" or "real" glider is (your terms). That is a personal belief that you hold, not shared by a lot of the world. But pretending that they have an advantage during the performance of a record attempt is provably without merit. During any of those record attempts listed above, you could have flown right alongside in a V2c or 29, with exactly the same options and safety (and a little more performance, too).

Not the first time my opinions have been thought of as "Deplorable" but I am okay with that.

We are getting closer to the root of the problem. There is a distinct difference between a "Low Save" and pushing into unlandable territory. I am not saying record setting flights involve low saves. In fact I have said that a number of times. The "danger" aspect is flying in an area where a safe glide cannot be made to a suitable landing option. Flying in Arizona, there are many places where I can be flying at 8,000 feet AGL, and not be able to reach a place to land. (Break your glider country) This concept cannot be derived from any flight logs unless we had an analytic tool to determine where every suitable landing option is. For all I know someone could be at 14,000 feet over the desert and have no where to safely land within glide. Well, unless you had a motor with Plenty of altitude to get it started.

Your "Alternative Fact" that "Most off-airport landings in the western desert involve damage" is disproved by the MANY landouts I have had while soaring in the Arizona and New Mexico desert. And trust me, I land out a Lot! I have not broken a glider (Knock on Wood), but I have met many land owners! It is due to planning and always having options. An option I don't have in a pure glider is motoring out.

I invite you to tape your engine shut and see if the way you fly changes at all. Even a hint of a thought that "the motor is back there" while flying changes the game and the way you fly. Sailing a boat with a motor changes where you sail your boat. (Wouldn't want to get stuck out in the open water without favorable winds?)

I get it that you are offended that I view your motor glider as a non-pure glider, but that is a personal belief that you hold, not shared by a lot of the world. (Paraphrased) But pretending that they do not have a distinct advantage during the performance of a record attempt equally lacks merit. Particularly I don't see comments from many Motor-Glider record holders showing up here to defend their position.

All I am saying is that Motor Gliders are not Pure Gliders, and thus treating them the same on the record sheet when they have been treated separately for so many years makes no sense. Why the consolidation? Was there a complaint by motor glider pilots that they couldn't claim pure glider records, or was this a knee jerk (good idea fairy) action that had no development or reason other than to simplify the record sheets? Where is the supporting data used to implement the change?

On Sunday, March 19, 2017 at 10:17:43 PM UTC+3, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
Not the first time my opinions have been thought of as "Deplorable" but I am okay with that.

We are getting closer to the root of the problem. There is a distinct difference between a "Low Save" and pushing into unlandable territory. I am not saying record setting flights involve low saves. In fact I have said that a number of times. The "danger" aspect is flying in an area where a safe glide cannot be made to a suitable landing option. Flying in Arizona, there are many places where I can be flying at 8,000 feet AGL, and not be able to reach a place to land. (Break your glider country) This concept cannot be derived from any flight logs unless we had an analytic tool to determine where every suitable landing option is. For all I know someone could be at 14,000 feet over the desert and have no where to safely land within glide. Well, unless you had a motor with Plenty of altitude to get it started.

Your "Alternative Fact" that "Most off-airport landings in the western desert involve damage" is disproved by the MANY landouts I have had while soaring in the Arizona and New Mexico desert. And trust me, I land out a Lot! I have not broken a glider (Knock on Wood), but I have met many land owners! It is due to planning and always having options. An option I don't have in a pure glider is motoring out.

I invite you to tape your engine shut and see if the way you fly changes at all. Even a hint of a thought that "the motor is back there" while flying changes the game and the way you fly. Sailing a boat with a motor changes where you sail your boat. (Wouldn't want to get stuck out in the open water without favorable winds?)

I get it that you are offended that I view your motor glider as a non-pure glider, but that is a personal belief that you hold, not shared by a lot of the world. (Paraphrased) But pretending that they do not have a distinct advantage during the performance of a record attempt equally lacks merit. Particularly I don't see comments from many Motor-Glider record holders showing up here to defend their position.

All I am saying is that Motor Gliders are not Pure Gliders, and thus treating them the same on the record sheet when they have been treated separately for so many years makes no sense. Why the consolidation? Was there a complaint by motor glider pilots that they couldn't claim pure glider records, or was this a knee jerk (good idea fairy) action that had no development or reason other than to simplify the record sheets? Where is the supporting data used to implement the change?

Why the consolidation? That's easy.

The record books have two types of records:

1) the "real" ones. The best performances.

2) consolation ones, to encourage participation by those who might not otherwise do so because they have little chance of getting a real record because of their disadvantaged circumstances, to wit: natural disadvantages such as a) young age; b) lack of a penis; or carrying around extra useless weight in the form of c) a second pilot; or d) a motor.

NB: I'm not saying this is how *I* think!! This is how the people who set up the categories in the 1920s or 1950s or whenever it was thought.

If and when the disadvantages resulting in formation of the consolation categories are rendered no longer a disadvantage they can participate in the real records.

On Sunday, March 19, 2017 at 12:17:43 PM UTC-7, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
Not the first time my opinions have been thought of as "Deplorable" but I am okay with that.

We are getting closer to the root of the problem. There is a distinct difference between a "Low Save" and pushing into unlandable territory. I am not saying record setting flights involve low saves. In fact I have said that a number of times. The "danger" aspect is flying in an area where a safe glide cannot be made to a suitable landing option. Flying in Arizona, there are many places where I can be flying at 8,000 feet AGL, and not be able to reach a place to land. (Break your glider country) This concept cannot be derived from any flight logs unless we had an analytic tool to determine where every suitable landing option is. For all I know someone could be at 14,000 feet over the desert and have no where to safely land within glide. Well, unless you had a motor with Plenty of altitude to get it started.

Your "Alternative Fact" that "Most off-airport landings in the western desert involve damage" is disproved by the MANY landouts I have had while soaring in the Arizona and New Mexico desert. And trust me, I land out a Lot! I have not broken a glider (Knock on Wood), but I have met many land owners! It is due to planning and always having options. An option I don't have in a pure glider is motoring out.

I invite you to tape your engine shut and see if the way you fly changes at all. Even a hint of a thought that "the motor is back there" while flying changes the game and the way you fly. Sailing a boat with a motor changes where you sail your boat. (Wouldn't want to get stuck out in the open water without favorable winds?)

I get it that you are offended that I view your motor glider as a non-pure glider, but that is a personal belief that you hold, not shared by a lot of the world. (Paraphrased) But pretending that they do not have a distinct advantage during the performance of a record attempt equally lacks merit. Particularly I don't see comments from many Motor-Glider record holders showing up here to defend their position.

All I am saying is that Motor Gliders are not Pure Gliders, and thus treating them the same on the record sheet when they have been treated separately for so many years makes no sense. Why the consolidation? Was there a complaint by motor glider pilots that they couldn't claim pure glider records, or was this a knee jerk (good idea fairy) action that had no development or reason other than to simplify the record sheets? Where is the supporting data used to implement the change?

"Was there a complaint by motor glider pilots that they couldn't claim pure glider records..." no, much worse: they couldn't claim ANY record. Go back and read the third post. The IGC does not recognize the distinction, and yet you must get the national body to certify the record first, effectively eliminating US based international record attempts. It is my understanding that is the reason for the change - to allow US pilots to compete with the rest of the world. Otherwise it wouldn't matter.

Come up with some (any!) evidence for your theory and we'll have a discussion. Supposition and speculation by someone unfamiliar with the type is not persuasive. Your position is one of Faith. I like Ambrose Bierce's definition of the term: "The belief without question, if people who speak without knowledge, of things without parallel." None of these records are held by people pushing into unlandable territory, whether or not they have a motor. Had you taken my suggestion and looked at the traces you would see that, but the Faithful don't look for facts. I haven't soared in Arizona, but I have soared the Great Basin for 20 years and there are not many experienced open glider pilots looking for off airport outlandings. It happens, and you can get away with it sometimes in a 15m - that's about as optimistic as it gets.

As far a consolidation, since the average age of non-motorglider records is around 22 years, I think we can call the category effectively dead. The historical reason for a motorglider category is that they used to be much lower performance than open class gliders. There are now almost no open class gliders without motors, and there is no performance difference with or without, therefore no longer a reason for the category. 15m and standard category still exist and are effectively motor free - but no one is making record attempts in them either.

On Monday, 20 March 2017 06:46:06 UTC+2, jfitch wrote:
15m and standard category still exist and are effectively motor free - but no one is making record attempts in them either.


Virtually all 15m class world records are flown by 18m motorgliders that have been installed with 15m wingtips (I bet record flight attempt is only instance these gliders have been flown with short tips). But as I said before, very long record flight attemps are possible only with motorgliders. There is no way to get up in the wave, probably to some remote start point, and still have option to motor back for another start attempt if first fails. Without engine you are sitting on the outlanding field after first glide and thinking of switching hobbies to golf.

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 12:29:25 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Monday, 20 March 2017 06:46:06 UTC+2, jfitch wrote:
15m and standard category still exist and are effectively motor free - but no one is making record attempts in them either.


Virtually all 15m class world records are flown by 18m motorgliders that have been installed with 15m wingtips (I bet record flight attempt is only instance these gliders have been flown with short tips). But as I said before, very long record flight attemps are possible only with motorgliders. There is no way to get up in the wave, probably to some remote start point, and still have option to motor back for another start attempt if first fails.. Without engine you are sitting on the outlanding field after first glide and thinking of switching hobbies to golf.

Up until now, you have had separate categories for non motorgliders, yet almost no records have been set in them for decades. Of what use is keeping these categories, if no one attempts records in it? If you love the category, why aren't you out there attempting records? Far from reducing participation, the consolidation will increase it, since now those you are actually flying records (rather than whinging on about technicalities) can also apply for a world record.

Anecdotes from non record attempt flights 22 years ago are entertaining, but shed little light on what is happening now. I can bore you with countless stories of "pure" gliders getting low and digging out, landing after dark, flying low over rocks, etc. Ridiculously risky piloting examples exist in all types and makes. Pull your head out of the sand and look at the actual record attempts being made in the last few years (most are not set in wave so that argument is also specious).

So wait... A prime example of the dynamics of psychology in play between having a motor is presented and your argument is that this was years ago so it doesn't matter? I am sorry to say but it is you that seems to have his head in the sand sir. This is the exact mentality that I have been "making up", and yet here it is. As stated in one of my previous posts, it only takes one to start a negative trend in this. Is this not an example of what I have been saying?

On Monday, 20 March 2017 18:08:18 UTC+2, jfitch wrote:

Up until now, you have had separate categories for non motorgliders, yet almost no records have been set in them for decades. Of what use is keeping these categories, if no one attempts records in it? If you love the category, why aren't you out there attempting records?

In my country there are only categories for open and 15m class records (incl. motorgliders). My last record flight was 2 years ago, and I flew pure glider.

On the last day for the 94-95 Hilton Cup Dan Matzke flew a big triangle
out of California City in his DG400 motor-glider. Well after dark (not
sunset) he radioed that he was low over the Honda track (10nm North of Cal
City) and asked if there was a way to get the lights turned on. We replied
we can turn the lights on at Cal City airport but there were no lights on
the Honda track itself. He paused and replied that there was a bit of lift
and maybe he could make it. After a bit he reported that he had glider
home. So I walked out to midfield and stood beside the runway, perfectly
quiet and pitch black except for the runway lights. I couldn't see him,
but eventually I heard a chirp when his wheel touched asphalt. Later he
would admit that he would not have put himself in that position without the
motor to fall back on.
Those of us who witnessed that event, were left with little doubt that a
motor glider has a distinct advantage available over a non motor-glider.
This latest change to records will undoubtedly lead to a loss of interest
in record attempts by non-motor gliders. So it's a bit hard to see that as
a having a positive impact on the slow steady decline in U.S. soaring. But
maybe bringing the more affluent in our society into soaring will be a good
thing.

M Eiler