All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 12:29:25 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Monday, 20 March 2017 06:46:06 UTC+2, jfitch wrote:
15m and standard category still exist and are effectively motor free - but no one is making record attempts in them either.


Virtually all 15m class world records are flown by 18m motorgliders that have been installed with 15m wingtips (I bet record flight attempt is only instance these gliders have been flown with short tips). But as I said before, very long record flight attemps are possible only with motorgliders. There is no way to get up in the wave, probably to some remote start point, and still have option to motor back for another start attempt if first fails.. Without engine you are sitting on the outlanding field after first glide and thinking of switching hobbies to golf.

Up until now, you have had separate categories for non motorgliders, yet almost no records have been set in them for decades. Of what use is keeping these categories, if no one attempts records in it? If you love the category, why aren't you out there attempting records? Far from reducing participation, the consolidation will increase it, since now those you are actually flying records (rather than whinging on about technicalities) can also apply for a world record.

Anecdotes from non record attempt flights 22 years ago are entertaining, but shed little light on what is happening now. I can bore you with countless stories of "pure" gliders getting low and digging out, landing after dark, flying low over rocks, etc. Ridiculously risky piloting examples exist in all types and makes. Pull your head out of the sand and look at the actual record attempts being made in the last few years (most are not set in wave so that argument is also specious).

So wait... A prime example of the dynamics of psychology in play between having a motor is presented and your argument is that this was years ago so it doesn't matter? I am sorry to say but it is you that seems to have his head in the sand sir. This is the exact mentality that I have been "making up", and yet here it is. As stated in one of my previous posts, it only takes one to start a negative trend in this. Is this not an example of what I have been saying?

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 10:41:24 AM UTC-7, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
So wait... A prime example of the dynamics of psychology in play between having a motor is presented and your argument is that this was years ago so it doesn't matter? I am sorry to say but it is you that seems to have his head in the sand sir. This is the exact mentality that I have been "making up", and yet here it is. As stated in one of my previous posts, it only takes one to start a negative trend in this. Is this not an example of what I have been saying?

Really? So a single example of an idiot from 22 years ago proves that every motorglider pilot flies unsafely? There are countless examples of "pure" gliders flying low into unlandable terrain. We know this because there are nearly countless examples of them crashing there. From this, using your logic, we should eliminate "pure" gliders from the record books since there is obviously a temptation to fly them unsafely in pursuit of records. It only takes one...

I repeat once again, you have yet to produce a single example of a record flight or record attempt showing either a low save or low flight into unlandable terrain, by any current record holder. This should be quite easy for you to do, if such behavior is rampant. The flight logs and tools are readily available. If all you have is an idiot, flying 22 years ago, on a non-record attempt, you are grasping at straws.

It's really kind of a moot point, since 20 years on you will have a hard time finding a still flying "pure" glider for a record attempt - that is the unmistakable trend. Just as there is difficulty today finding a glider without electronic instruments, GPS navigation, water ballast, composite laminate flow airfoils and all the rest of the things decried when they were introduced as the ruination of the sport. I think you might be happiest buying a 1-26 and setting records in it. That's as good as any point in time to freeze.

In my club, as people who used to be most sceptical about gliders with motors update their gliders, they generally buy ones with motors (if able to afford to buy new or nearly new).

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 3:48:16 AM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
In my club, as people who used to be most sceptical about gliders with motors update their gliders, they generally buy ones with motors (if able to afford to buy new or nearly new).

It is interesting that the umbrage directed at auxiliary power is not similarly directed at GPS. The change of "mindset" or aggressiveness at cross country flying is affected far more by GPS (at least here in the west) than a motor. Prior to GPS, you guessed where you were, what the wind was, where the landing sites might be, whether you could make them or not. In the cockpit you juggled a huge chart with a bunch of marks on it, a ruler, a funny little circular slide rule - and worried a lot. Now you know exactly were you are, exactly where the landing sites are, the wind to a high degree of confidence, and your arrival height at any landing site with a high degree of confidence. All calculated continuously without the slightest effort or knowledge.

If you held a contest in the west with long tasks called, and gave the choice of either leaving the GPS behind or disabling the motor, every motorglider pilot I know would disable the motor and keep the GPS. If the contest were between motorgliders with no GPS and "pure" gliders with GPS, my money would be on the "pure" gliders, all in. GPS changed this type of flying much more than motors.

Yet the visceral reaction to motors is not applied to GPS. Yeah, there was some hand wringing about their use in racing for a short time, but now everyone flies with GPS. All records are set with GPS. It's even 'outside assistance' if a $20B satellite constellation counts. No one says a thing about it. Why the double standard?

Funny line of thinking, but I don't think that you are wrong.

TW


Le mardi 21 mars 2017 17:03:32 UTC+1, jfitch a écritÂ*:
On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 3:48:16 AM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
In my club, as people who used to be most sceptical about gliders with motors update their gliders, they generally buy ones with motors (if able to afford to buy new or nearly new).

It is interesting that the umbrage directed at auxiliary power is not similarly directed at GPS. The change of "mindset" or aggressiveness at cross country flying is affected far more by GPS (at least here in the west) than a motor. Prior to GPS, you guessed where you were, what the wind was, where the landing sites might be, whether you could make them or not. In the cockpit you juggled a huge chart with a bunch of marks on it, a ruler, a funny little circular slide rule - and worried a lot. Now you know exactly were you are, exactly where the landing sites are, the wind to a high degree of confidence, and your arrival height at any landing site with a high degree of confidence. All calculated continuously without the slightest effort or knowledge.

If you held a contest in the west with long tasks called, and gave the choice of either leaving the GPS behind or disabling the motor, every motorglider pilot I know would disable the motor and keep the GPS. If the contest were between motorgliders with no GPS and "pure" gliders with GPS, my money would be on the "pure" gliders, all in. GPS changed this type of flying much more than motors.

Yet the visceral reaction to motors is not applied to GPS. Yeah, there was some hand wringing about their use in racing for a short time, but now everyone flies with GPS. All records are set with GPS. It's even 'outside assistance' if a $20B satellite constellation counts. No one says a thing about it. Why the double standard?

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 12:03:32 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 3:48:16 AM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
In my club, as people who used to be most sceptical about gliders with motors update their gliders, they generally buy ones with motors (if able to afford to buy new or nearly new).

It is interesting that the umbrage directed at auxiliary power is not similarly directed at GPS. The change of "mindset" or aggressiveness at cross country flying is affected far more by GPS (at least here in the west) than a motor. Prior to GPS, you guessed where you were, what the wind was, where the landing sites might be, whether you could make them or not. In the cockpit you juggled a huge chart with a bunch of marks on it, a ruler, a funny little circular slide rule - and worried a lot. Now you know exactly were you are, exactly where the landing sites are, the wind to a high degree of confidence, and your arrival height at any landing site with a high degree of confidence. All calculated continuously without the slightest effort or knowledge.

If you held a contest in the west with long tasks called, and gave the choice of either leaving the GPS behind or disabling the motor, every motorglider pilot I know would disable the motor and keep the GPS. If the contest were between motorgliders with no GPS and "pure" gliders with GPS, my money would be on the "pure" gliders, all in. GPS changed this type of flying much more than motors.

Yet the visceral reaction to motors is not applied to GPS. Yeah, there was some hand wringing about their use in racing for a short time, but now everyone flies with GPS. All records are set with GPS. It's even 'outside assistance' if a $20B satellite constellation counts. No one says a thing about it. Why the double standard?

GPS transformed racing. It's a 10+mph advantage, all day long.

It's not as big a deal on record missions. a) records are flown on good days(about which more in a moment), all that computer aided contingency planning is a much larger benefit on weak scratchy days, b) the record route is usually much better planned and studied (using Google Earth, another transformative change) than one has the chance to do for a contest task, making visual navigation much easier, c) turn point rules are simple, and the turnpoints few for a record task. My state record and various badge tasks have all been flown largely on eyeballs and memory. GPS saves me the trouble of getting into position to take a picture and the nervous process of trying to convince a photo processor not to cut the film.

It's certainly nice having all the info that GPS based systems can provide and that is a performance enhancer, no doubt. However, that battle was fought 25 years ago. I'm glad I "grew up" on map, compass, eyeball and flew the final glides on my first contests with circles on a chart (to zero height finish lines). It was hard. It was fun. It was a quarter century ago.

The objection to GPS in competition at the time was simple: it was extravagantly expensive. IIRC a full on GPS system -- simple as they were initially -- was half again what I had in my HP-18 + instruments + trailer. And as soon as GPS was permitted, you were doomed to be a permanent back marker. Really extensive local knowledge could mitigate this, but that wasn't a factor for a newcomer like me.

Today, we are all used to GPS. It's cheap (on the reception end). It's in your phone. There would be no earthly way to prevent its use in the cockpit.

The technology change that's had a far larger impact on my long distance flying than GPS is better weather forecasting. Better tools, accessible to all, make it a much less hit/miss affair to match up an ambitious task to a strong day. When new records are set, I think this is the biggest advantage modern pilots have over their predecessors.

The visceral reaction is because many of us view MGs as a fundamentally different different classification of aircraft. You can belittle that view all you like (and do seem to like!), it's a logical, discernible difference: these aircraft have engines, these others do not. Many of us think that allowing engines where no engines were previously allowed is a big logical change and at least merited a comment and discussion period. This thread is evidence for that.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

On Monday, 20 March 2017 18:08:18 UTC+2, jfitch wrote:

Up until now, you have had separate categories for non motorgliders, yet almost no records have been set in them for decades. Of what use is keeping these categories, if no one attempts records in it? If you love the category, why aren't you out there attempting records?

In my country there are only categories for open and 15m class records (incl. motorgliders). My last record flight was 2 years ago, and I flew pure glider.