A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old March 20th 17, 03:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 174
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

http://www.proairsport.com/project-glow.php Predicted price $53K. That's with two motors. Twice the record breaking capacity. If you had new 25K ASW-19s on the market, all it would do is make old ASW-19s worth 12K. But I don't think it can be done with current construction techniques. Figure out how to build a plastic rotomolded glider(same as kayaks) and you'd be in the low cost glider market. That assumes there are low cost glider buyers. How much performance would pilots give up for a cheap new glider? And how much performance would they give up for a new glider with a motor at a 'low' price? Get permission to build new 1-26s that would fix everything... Rotomolded plastic 1-26s are the future. Order yours today. Available in traditional yellow and orange.
On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 10:08:34 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Chris,

I respect your engagement in this forum to help our failing sport. You have a tough job ahead of you.

Perhaps if there was enough orders for the remaking of the ASW-19, say 50 orders at a reasonable price, the Alexander Schliecher factory could start up production again.

Just like Chevrolet can make a high end fully loaded Corvette with the latest technology for over $100,000 and a stripped down camaro for $25,000 (both brand new 2017 models). Surely, a sailplane factory could do the same thing, offer a high end and a low end glider.

I have to believe that if there were enough orders for this sailplane to be brought back into production at a reasonable price there would be a tremendous amount of orders and it would jumpstart the club class like you've never seen before.

I will say it again, if the PW-5 was produced for the price it was, so can it happen again.


Ads
  #62  
Old March 20th 17, 05:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrew Ainslie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

....not to mention that they can't keep up with demand for their $200k gliders, what possible incentive do they have to do this?
  #63  
Old March 20th 17, 05:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 59
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

How and why, was the PW-5 made for so cheap?

Nobody can answer this because it proves you are wrong!

Basic sailplanes do not cost a fortune to build. There is a market for entry level gliders with a handicap of 1.00 for a reasonable price. Few pilots want to own a 40-50 year old fiberglass sailplane.

How much did an ASW-19 cost brand new in 1975?
  #64  
Old March 20th 17, 05:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 787
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 8:20:45 PM UTC+3, Andrew Ainslie wrote:
...not to mention that they can't keep up with demand for their $200k gliders, what possible incentive do they have to do this?


I'm not sure that's true.

While manufacturers do tend to have a year or so delay from ordering to delivery, I don't think the queue is getting longer. They are producing gliders at, on average, exactly the same rate as new orders are coming in.

Are they losing potential orders because someone isn't prepared to wait a year, but would buy a new glider today if it was sitting in a showroom? Possibly some, but I don't think it's significant.

Security of employment for skilled workers, and the time taken to train new ones are quite enough to explain the queue. You can't hire someone if you can't guarantee them a year's work.

If someone came along with a firm order for 10000 gliders then they could expand and step up the production rate, with a delay of a couple of years.

No doubt DG is very happy to have a few dozen DG1000/1001 ordered by the world's airforces. but it's not enough to fundamentally change the production equation.
  #65  
Old March 20th 17, 07:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 174
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 1:36:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
How and why, was the PW-5 made for so cheap?

Nobody can answer this because it proves you are wrong!

Basic sailplanes do not cost a fortune to build. There is a market for entry level gliders with a handicap of 1.00 for a reasonable price. Few pilots want to own a 40-50 year old fiberglass sailplane.

How much did an ASW-19 cost brand new in 1975?


When the PW5s were being built I believe the Euro was in the toilet and Eastern European wages were lagging. When introduced the HPH 304 were 25K. Why can't HPH sell them at that price anymore? First Sparrowhawks with a preproduction down payment were in that price range as well. Maybe we are suffering from double secret invisible inflation. On the other hand how many 304s, PW5s, and Sparrowhawks sold at those prices? Not enough to get anyone sane interested in building new ones. Thankfully soaring runs on the labor of the insane so there is always hope. For laughs prices from the back of America's Soaring Book published 1974: 1-26C(kit) $3,660; 1-26E $5,495; 2-33 $6,995; 2-32 $14,995; ASW-15B $9,300; Libelle $9,350; ASW-17 $14,200; Nimbus II $12,350.
Dammit why can't we have brand new $6,995 2-33s? That'd fix the decline...
  #66  
Old March 20th 17, 07:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 59
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

That would fix the decline, along with the SSA incorporating the international rules of soaring and the supporting Grand Prix racing. Simple. Get with the rest of the world!

But since this cockamamie set of rules is "religion" to so many of you, the decline continues.

If you can't explain the way a race is won within 30 seconds or less, and the costs to compete are out of control expensive, then the demise of soaring is the fault of your own.

You are now entering the final glide for Soaring as we know it.
  #67  
Old March 20th 17, 07:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 442
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 3:29:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
That would fix the decline, along with the SSA incorporating the international rules of soaring and the supporting Grand Prix racing. Simple. Get with the rest of the world!

But since this cockamamie set of rules is "religion" to so many of you, the decline continues.

If you can't explain the way a race is won within 30 seconds or less, and the costs to compete are out of control expensive, then the demise of soaring is the fault of your own.

You are now entering the final glide for Soaring as we know it.


Wrong account :-). At least I think so. Sort of hard to keep track!

-Evan / T8
  #68  
Old March 20th 17, 08:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Papa3[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 601
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

Chris,

It would be a huge mistake to put your energy into this pursuit. Here's a simple data point. Last year's US Club Class Nationals was held at Wurtsboro. Wurtsboro is an easy one day drive from the major population centers of the Northeast (Washington, Philadelphia, New York, Boston etc.) There are literally hundreds of true Club Class gliders based in this area and dozens of soaring Clubs (the "Club" in "Club Class"). There are thousands of licensed glider pilots as well.

Exactly three Club-Owned gliders showed up. Three.

Why the focus on individual ownership? The inventory/fleet is already here.. It's the qualified/interested pilots who are missing along with the support from Clubs and/or FBOs.

Data point number two. Our club (which sent 2 of the 3 Club gliders to Wurtsboro) has an LS4 and LS3 which we are very liberal with in terms of letting folks bring them to contests. We have over 120 members. Only 9 members flew those 2 gliders all of last year. 4 pilots accounted for 85% of the flying in those ships. Just down the road is an even bigger club which has a large, all-glass fleet including 2 true Club Class racers. They sent exactly zero competitors.

Erik Mann (P3)
ASG-29 and sometimes LS4 driver



On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 9:03:01 AM UTC-4, wrote:
This is a good discussion. The closest thing to what you're talking about is the HPH 304C. I recently emailed Sean Franke and asked for a quote and was told that nobody had ordered one since 2014. A bulk order with cheaper US made trailers may be the way to go. The other key component to this is currently there's only 1 Bank that has loans specific to gliders. Yes you can take out a home equity line to partially finance the latest and greatest, but clubs cannot do this. As the Chair of the Growth and Retention Committee I intend to spend some face time to see what can be done for clubs who have at least 50% equity in their glider. Such loans shouldn't require a Guarantor where the glider is new or newly used and worth more than $50k. One option is to have pledges in the event of a default (which isn't quite the same thing as being a Guarantor but ought to still help reduce the risk for a bank). The next question is, who wants to get into the glider Repo business? Hopefully this won't be needed though.

Your feedback is appreciated.

Chris Schrader, Chair of SSA's Growth & Retention Committee


  #69  
Old March 20th 17, 08:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 787
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 8:50:41 PM UTC+3, chipsoars wrote:
http://all-aero.com/index.php/compon...-19--valiant-t

$19,500 USD


On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 1:36:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
How and why, was the PW-5 made for so cheap?

Nobody can answer this because it proves you are wrong!

Basic sailplanes do not cost a fortune to build. There is a market for entry level gliders with a handicap of 1.00 for a reasonable price. Few pilots want to own a 40-50 year old fiberglass sailplane.

How much did an ASW-19 cost brand new in 1975?


So, according to http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php, that $19500 in 1975 would be $90,711 now. $19500 in 1976 would be $84827 now.

Which is right about what the HpH 304 costs now.
  #70  
Old March 20th 17, 09:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 688
Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

That $19,500 is not in today's dollars, so the figure is not as meaningful. Wasn't the ASW-19 a contemporary of the LS-4, a better performing glider. And didn't they try to produce the LS-4, as a club class glider with both fixed gear or with retractable gear after LS went BK? That project failed with a more popular glider than the ASW-19. As pointed out the HPH 304 is along the line of this thread but none have been ordered since 2014.

China produced a very cheap racing sailboat "Flying Tiger", but last time I spoke with an owner they looked great but had too many problems, haven't seen one on the water lately. I frankly do not want anything from China, do not trust their safety record on baby formula, children's jewelry, dry wall, plywood, dog food, cat food................

Gee Wilbur, you took the year off, if you are so sure this will work why don't you buy the tooling and molds find a 3rd world country that you can hire a labor force of children like Nike and build your machines.

As a side note to doing work in other countries, a friend who was general counsel to a very large public company told me a tale of setting up a cigaret manufacturing factory in Russia. They started having trouble contacting the factory so they sent their lead production manager to Russia. When he got there, surprise, the entire factory had been moved to an unknown location and the local government was asking a huge sum to find and return the factory.

If you are so sure this will work, I look forward to seeing your results!


On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 10:50:41 AM UTC-7, chipsoars wrote:
http://all-aero.com/index.php/compon...-19--valiant-t

$19,500 USD


On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 1:36:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
How and why, was the PW-5 made for so cheap?

Nobody can answer this because it proves you are wrong!

Basic sailplanes do not cost a fortune to build. There is a market for entry level gliders with a handicap of 1.00 for a reasonable price. Few pilots want to own a 40-50 year old fiberglass sailplane.

How much did an ASW-19 cost brand new in 1975?

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2017 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.