We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 12:16:17 AM UTC+3, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
That $19,500 is not in today's dollars, so the figure is not as meaningful. Wasn't the ASW-19 a contemporary of the LS-4, a better performing glider. And didn't they try to produce the LS-4, as a club class glider with both fixed gear or with retractable gear after LS went BK? That project failed with a more popular glider than the ASW-19. As pointed out the HPH 304 is along the line of this thread but none have been ordered since 2014.

Non have been ordered in the USA, or none world-wide?

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 10:36:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
How and why, was the PW-5 made for so cheap?

Nobody can answer this because it proves you are wrong!

Basic sailplanes do not cost a fortune to build. There is a market for entry level gliders with a handicap of 1.00 for a reasonable price. Few pilots want to own a 40-50 year old fiberglass sailplane.

How much did an ASW-19 cost brand new in 1975?

Material cost by the pound. Labor costs by the hour. Hours are somewhat proportional to wetted area which correlates to pounds - plus mostly fixed labor hours to make all the innards. Add some overhead and a little profit for the OEM and distributor and there's your retail price.

Modern material like carbon fiber cost more per pound than plain old GRP, but you can make gliders smaller and lighter with it so if you do it right the cost goes down. Build them in a lower labor cost country with some manufacturing skills and that's about as cheap as it's gonna get. For the most part you don't save money by using an old airfoil. Sure, you can use cheaper materials if you can make the thicker wing out of GRP instead of carbon, but the whole thing gets heavier and more expensive as a result so it's a losing game these days with modern materials, modern airfoils and CFD design tools.

Take advantage of all of that and you pretty much get the GP 11 out of Poland. 39:1 max L/D and a 260 lb empty weight. Ask Tim McAllister to price you one. They make bigger ones too, but more $$.

As someone posted, building a 1980s standard-class glider today will cost about what a modern 15-meter glider costs less the flaps, which add less than $10,000 - and part of the reason why no one is building standard class gliders anymore. The old days weren't cheaper by design, they were cheaper by compounded inflation. If I take the LS-4 I bought new in 1980 for $26,000 and apply the CPI for the intervening 37 years, I end up at more than $80,000.

The only way to get a new glider for much less is to build a time machine. You can skip 40 years of inflation. Hope you saved some D-Marks though.

Andy
9B

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 14:50:24 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 12:16:17 AM UTC+3, Jonathan St. Cloud
wrote:
That $19,500 is not in today's dollars, so the figure is not as
meaningful. Wasn't the ASW-19 a contemporary of the LS-4, a better
performing glider. And didn't they try to produce the LS-4, as a club
class glider with both fixed gear or with retractable gear after LS
went BK? That project failed with a more popular glider than the
ASW-19. As pointed out the HPH 304 is along the line of this thread
but none have been ordered since 2014.

Non have been ordered in the USA, or none world-wide?

Does the HPH 304 S|SJ|E Shark count? If so, then they are selling. A
304SJ arrived on our club field in the UK last year and another two are
due this year of which, IIRC, one is an E (FES) version.


--
[email protected] | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Again, no one on here will discuss these questions:

How much was a PW-5 brand new?

What would that be worth in today's dollars with inflation?


The answer alone removes all doubt that affordable sailplanes CAN be made!

Again, no one on here will discuss these questions:

How much was a PW-5 brand new?

What would that be worth in today's dollars with inflation?


The answer alone removes all doubt that affordable sailplanes CAN be made!

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 5:50:01 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Again, no one on here will discuss these questions:

How much was a PW-5 brand new?

What would that be worth in today's dollars with inflation?


The answer alone removes all doubt that affordable sailplanes CAN be made!

Sean Spicer.... is it really you?

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 8:50:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Again, no one on here will discuss these questions:

How much was a PW-5 brand new?

What would that be worth in today's dollars with inflation?


The answer alone removes all doubt that affordable sailplanes CAN be made!

What's a used PW-5 worth and how fast do they sell? Hint there is one on W&W for 18.5K listed for over a year. You are barking up the wrong tree.

If this is so incredibly important to you, why wouldn't you just do the research yourself. The data is there in the SSA Magazine archive. In today's dollars, the answer is "nowhere near $25,000". What's more telling is that the manufacturing of the PW-5 stopped and started at least twice under different ownership, going out of business each time. And, nobody took up the "offer" of license manufacturing which was part of the deal in the first place.

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 9:24:16 PM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:
If this is so incredibly important to you, why wouldn't you just do the research yourself. The data is there in the SSA Magazine archive. In today's dollars, the answer is "nowhere near $25,000". What's more telling is that the manufacturing of the PW-5 stopped and started at least twice under different ownership, going out of business each time. And, nobody took up the "offer" of license manufacturing which was part of the deal in the first place.

Darn you, you got me to go look. But it was worth it. For a laugh go read the University of Tennessee marketing study on the PW-5 in Soaring magazine December 1995 page 8.

Well, let's just say that the ASW-19, brand new in 1975 cost $25,000,
though I'm sure it was a bit more. Adjusting for inflation, that's
$116,296.72 in today's dollars ($30K inflates to $139,556.07).

Guess that sucks the wind out of your sails, huh, Wilbur? A similar
lookup could just as easily be done for the first production year of the
PW-5.

On 3/20/2017 11:36 AM, wrote:
How and why, was the PW-5 made for so cheap?

Nobody can answer this because it proves you are wrong!

Basic sailplanes do not cost a fortune to build. There is a market for entry level gliders with a handicap of 1.00 for a reasonable price. Few pilots want to own a 40-50 year old fiberglass sailplane.

How much did an ASW-19 cost brand new in 1975?

--
Dan, 5J