Could the Press Grow a Spine?

We were sitting at the peace table in Paris with SVN, NVN and the VC.

Minor correction Ed, but I'm 99.9% sure there were no SVN or VC representatives
in Paris. But your point was well made.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

On 28 Jun 2004 22:08:28 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

We were sitting at the peace table in Paris with SVN, NVN and the VC.

Minor correction Ed, but I'm 99.9% sure there were no SVN or VC representatives
in Paris. But your point was well made.

The "shape of the table" was a huge issue in '70, '71--the idea being
that a four-sided table would give equal voice to the SVN and VC in
the negotiations. By 1972, the table was most assuredly round and all
four parties were involved in the negotiation.

As has been earlier mentioned here, one of the stumbling blocks was
the unwillingness of Diem regime to concede some of the points agreed
to beween the US and NVN. This led to the suspension of talks in
April, then Linebacker, then more talks, then agreement in principle
(light at the end of the tunnel), suspension of ops in October of '72,
then Linebacker II, conclusion, POWs home by mid-March '73.

Ohh, that's right. Linebacker II was a failure. Forgot for a moment.
Sorry, bout that.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

By 1972, the table was most assuredly round and all
four parties were involved in the negotiation.

According to several books I've read, only the NVN and US were in Paris...at
least at the peace accords.

As has been earlier mentioned here, one of the stumbling blocks was
the unwillingness of Diem regime to concede some of the points agreed
to beween the US and NVN.

Ed, Ngo Dihn Diem was killed in 1963, the SVN President in 1972 was Nguyen Van
Thieu whom the North refused to negotiate with since they claimed his regime
was illegitimate. Thieu was notified of agreements in Paris by Henry Kissinger
who travelled from Paris to Saigon. He did have issues with many of the
agreements, but was not in Paris. As far as I can tell from the dozen or so
books I've read on the SE Asia conflict, the SVN and the VC were not in Paris,
in fact the NVN argued until the very end that the VC were not North supported
or affiliated. NVN claimed the battles in SVN were part of a civil war that
both the U.S. and the North should stay out of.

Ohh, that's right. Linebacker II was a failure.

Ahh...now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said it was a failure.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

On 28 Jun 2004 22:56:48 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

By 1972, the table was most assuredly round and all
four parties were involved in the negotiation.

According to several books I've read, only the NVN and US were in Paris...at
least at the peace accords.

As has been earlier mentioned here, one of the stumbling blocks was
the unwillingness of Diem regime to concede some of the points agreed
to beween the US and NVN.

Ed, Ngo Dihn Diem was killed in 1963, the SVN President in 1972 was Nguyen Van
Thieu whom the North refused to negotiate with since they claimed his regime
was illegitimate.

Encroaching senility. Meant Thieu. His representative was Le Duc Tho.

Yeah, it was Diem who was brother-in-law to Madame Nhu, the "Dragon
Lady". By late '72, of course we were getting ready to see a
merry-go-round of regime changes in SVN, including "Big Minh" who
engineered a coup in '63 to oust Diem, then somehow managed to keep a
position in the Army until eventually rising to the presidency just in
time to oversee the collapse and turn-over in '75.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:23:24 -0600, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

Encroaching senility. Meant Thieu. His representative was Le Duc Tho.

Omigod....stop me before I kill again. Tho was the NVN delegate. I'm
becoming a blithering idiot. (Stop right now, all of you with the
confirmation postings....I don't need the reinforcement.)

But, here's a googled up quote on the participants:

Peace talks between representatives from United States, South Vietnam, North Vietnam and the NLF began in Paris in January, 1969. Le Duc Tho served as special adviser to the North Vietnamese delegation. He eventually became North Vietnamese leader in these talks.


The real stumbling block at the outset was the legitimacy of the NLF
to participate in the talks. With the initial meetings coming shortly
after Tet '68, it seems in retrospect that the NLF was a reasonable
player for the discussions.

The errors of diplomacy, understanding of the Vietnamese culture, the
relationship with the PRC and USSR, the low probability of the nuclear
escalation, etc. etc. all seem so clear in the light of forty years of
settling since the end of hostilities.

But, while our mistakes can be analyzed, it still remains difficult to
envision what the world would look like with regard to communism had
we not "contained" and demonstrated a resolve to resist
expansionism--as flawed as we now seem to view the policy.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote:

Peace talks between representatives from United States, South Vietnam, North
Vietnam and the NLF began in Paris in January, 1969.

Wow. I had no idea SVN and NVN ever had a dialogue. Do you know if this
arragement continued in 1972 because *every* book on the conflict I have says
NVN (and Le Duc Tho in particular) refused to even talk with SVN reps because
they claimed their government was illegal? According to the readings, Thieu was
informed about negotiations directly from Kissenger. If there were SVN reps in
Paris, why would Thieu not get the info from them?

But, while our mistakes can be analyzed, it still remains difficult to
envision what the world would look like with regard to communism had
we not "contained" and demonstrated a resolve to resist
expansionism--as flawed as we now seem to view the policy.


Very interesting "what if?". With 20/20 hindsight it appears the communist
spread in SE Asia was never going to be greater than Laos, Cambodia and
Vietnam, but what about communist expansion elsewhere like South or Central
America? Would Che and his Cuban buddies have had more success in spreading
revolution if it appeared to the world that the U.S. was not committed to
fighting it?

Really no answer to those questions, but interesting historic speculation.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
Ed Rasimus wrote:

Peace talks between representatives from United States, South Vietnam,
North
Vietnam and the NLF began in Paris in January, 1969.

Wow. I had no idea SVN and NVN ever had a dialogue. Do you know if this
arragement continued in 1972 because *every* book on the conflict I have
says
NVN (and Le Duc Tho in particular) refused to even talk with SVN reps
because
they claimed their government was illegal? According to the readings,
Thieu was
informed about negotiations directly from Kissenger. If there were SVN
reps in
Paris, why would Thieu not get the info from them?

But, while our mistakes can be analyzed, it still remains difficult to
envision what the world would look like with regard to communism had
we not "contained" and demonstrated a resolve to resist
expansionism--as flawed as we now seem to view the policy.


Very interesting "what if?". With 20/20 hindsight it appears the communist
spread in SE Asia was never going to be greater than Laos, Cambodia and
Vietnam, but what about communist expansion elsewhere like South or
Central
America? Would Che and his Cuban buddies have had more success in
spreading
revolution if it appeared to the world that the U.S. was not committed to
fighting it?

I am not sure your 20/20 hindsight is all that accurate in this case in
terms of the observation that the spread was "never going to be greater than
Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam". Had there been zero opposition offered in
Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam, can you be assured that other surrounding
nations would not have subsequently and quickly come under the gun?
Thailand, Burma (I think that is what it was called then, in the pre-Myanmar
days...), the PI, Malaysia, etc.? This was an era when Mao was even flirting
around with some involvement in the Congo, IIRC; I doubt he would have
ignored his own backyard if he detected a complete and utter vacuum in terms
of US willingness to offer opposition. Maybe the reason those nations did
not face more substantial (or in the Malay case, significantly strengthened)
communist threats than they in the end had to actually contend with was
because we made the effort to stabilize the Vietnamese situation as we
did--who knows?

The sixties saw us (read large--the Brits did their share of countering
communist moves during this period, IIRC, especially in Malaya) face
insurgencies around the world; US "advisors" were apparently involved in
helping combat this threat in a fair number of spots outside
Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos. ISTR US special forces (and CIA) assets (to include
B-26K COIN aircraft) were active in Africa, as well as being involved in
supporting the Bolivians' ultimatelly successful hunt for Che Guevera; I
believe there was also US covert support being provided to the PI government
in their fight against their own communist insurgency.

Brooks


Really no answer to those questions, but interesting historic speculation.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On 28 Jun 2004 22:56:48 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

By 1972, the table was most assuredly round and all
four parties were involved in the negotiation.

According to several books I've read, only the NVN and US were in Paris...at
least at the peace accords.

As has been earlier mentioned here, one of the stumbling blocks was
the unwillingness of Diem regime to concede some of the points agreed
to beween the US and NVN.

Ed, Ngo Dihn Diem was killed in 1963, the SVN President in 1972 was Nguyen
Van
Thieu whom the North refused to negotiate with since they claimed his regime
was illegitimate.

Encroaching senility. Meant Thieu. His representative was Le Duc Tho.

You should have quit when you were ahead, Ed. Look below, or read it and weep:

"Le Duc Tho was born in Nam Ha province, Vietnam on 14th October, 1911. As a
young man he became involved in radical politics and in 1930 helped establish
the Indochinese Communist Party. He campaigned against French rule in Vietnam
and was twice imprisoned for his political activities (1930-36 and 1939-44).

In 1945 Le Duc Tho returned to Hanoi and joined with Ho Chi Minh and Vo Nguyen
Giap in establishing the Vietnam Revolutionary League (Vietminh). Until 1954 he
was Vietminh's leader in South Vietnam. A member of the Politburo of the Vietnam
Workers' Party, he had responsibility for organizing the rebellion against the
government of South Vietnam.

Peace talks between representatives from United States, South Vietnam, North
Vietnam and the NLF began in Paris in January, 1969. Le Duc Tho served as
special adviser to the North Vietnamese delegation. He eventually became North
Vietnamese leader in these talks."


George Z.

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On 28 Jun 2004 22:56:48 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

By 1972, the table was most assuredly round and all
four parties were involved in the negotiation.

According to several books I've read, only the NVN and US were in
Paris...at
least at the peace accords.

As has been earlier mentioned here, one of the stumbling blocks was
the unwillingness of Diem regime to concede some of the points agreed
to beween the US and NVN.

Ed, Ngo Dihn Diem was killed in 1963, the SVN President in 1972 was
Nguyen
Van
Thieu whom the North refused to negotiate with since they claimed his
regime
was illegitimate.

Encroaching senility. Meant Thieu. His representative was Le Duc Tho.

You should have quit when you were ahead, Ed. Look below, or read it and
weep:

Wow. You must have missed Ed's immediate correction that he hisself posted
regarding this little history lesson you are offering?

Brooks


"Le Duc Tho was born in Nam Ha province, Vietnam on 14th October, 1911. As
a
young man he became involved in radical politics and in 1930 helped
establish
the Indochinese Communist Party. He campaigned against French rule in
Vietnam
and was twice imprisoned for his political activities (1930-36 and
1939-44).

In 1945 Le Duc Tho returned to Hanoi and joined with Ho Chi Minh and Vo
Nguyen
Giap in establishing the Vietnam Revolutionary League (Vietminh). Until
1954 he
was Vietminh's leader in South Vietnam. A member of the Politburo of the
Vietnam
Workers' Party, he had responsibility for organizing the rebellion against
the
government of South Vietnam.

Peace talks between representatives from United States, South Vietnam,
North
Vietnam and the NLF began in Paris in January, 1969. Le Duc Tho served as
special adviser to the North Vietnamese delegation. He eventually became
North
Vietnamese leader in these talks."


George Z.

"BUFDRVR" wrote:
By 1972, the table was most assuredly round and all
four parties were involved in the negotiation.

According to several books I've read, only the NVN and US were in
Paris...at
least at the peace accords.

The peace accords were signed by:

FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:
William P. Rogers
Secretary of State

FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF VIET-NAM:
Tran Van Lam
Minister for Foreign Affairs

FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF VIET-NAM:
Nguyen Duy Trinh
Minister for Foreign Affairs

FOR THE PROVISIONAL REVOLUTIONARY GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH
VIET-NAM:
Nguyen Thi Binh
Minister for Foreign Affairs