Tow Plane Upsets......

This tow pilot will not agree to putting aircraft out of control at any altitude.
UH

I can imagine that a severe kiting upset of the type under discussion could put a towplane uncomfortably close to its negative load factor limits. It might also expose the tug's tailplane to loads beyond those for which it was designed or tested.

--Bob K.

Well yes, we really don't want to go to extreme attitudes, nor do would
anybody half sane contemplate practicing getting high on the towplane until

approaching release altitude.

The idea is to build the muscle memory of releasing well before the
towpilot
has gotten to maximum up elevator.

We do want to give the towpilot adequate margin.

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 10:30:05 AM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
Well yes, we really don't want to go to extreme attitudes...

I definitely agree that we should teach recognition and remediation.

But I also think that the main point here is that a true kiting incident is a divergent condition such that, once established, can easily escalate at a rate beyond human control. So we have to be careful about how we teach it.

--Bob K.

At 17:49 26 April 2017, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 10:30:05 AM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
Well yes, we really don't want to go to extreme attitudes...

I definitely agree that we should teach recognition and remediation.

But I also think that the main point here is that a true kiting incident
is
a divergent condition such that, once established, can easily escalate at
a
rate beyond human control. So we have to be careful about how we teach
it.

--Bob K.


I'm not a power/ tow pilot so this could be rubbish,but
Could an alarm be fitted at 90%back stick just to remind tug pilots just
how
much up elevator they are using to prevent gradually drifting into a
potential
dangerous situation from which there will be no escape.

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 2:45:05 PM UTC-4, Jonathon May wrote:
At 17:49 26 April 2017, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 10:30:05 AM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
Well yes, we really don't want to go to extreme attitudes...

I definitely agree that we should teach recognition and remediation.

But I also think that the main point here is that a true kiting incident
is
a divergent condition such that, once established, can easily escalate at
a
rate beyond human control. So we have to be careful about how we teach
it.

--Bob K.


I'm not a power/ tow pilot so this could be rubbish,but
Could an alarm be fitted at 90%back stick just to remind tug pilots just
how
much up elevator they are using to prevent gradually drifting into a
potential
dangerous situation from which there will be no escape.

I doubt most of us need an alarm to know we're pulling that much.
UH

....And the pitch rate is very high in a kiting incident. The tuggie can
be at full back stick and no longer in control quicker than he can
recognize and act.

On 4/26/2017 3:31 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 2:45:05 PM UTC-4, Jonathon May wrote:
At 17:49 26 April 2017, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 10:30:05 AM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
Well yes, we really don't want to go to extreme attitudes...
I definitely agree that we should teach recognition and remediation.

But I also think that the main point here is that a true kiting incident
is
a divergent condition such that, once established, can easily escalate at
a
rate beyond human control. So we have to be careful about how we teach
it.
--Bob K.

I'm not a power/ tow pilot so this could be rubbish,but
Could an alarm be fitted at 90%back stick just to remind tug pilots just
how
much up elevator they are using to prevent gradually drifting into a
potential
dangerous situation from which there will be no escape.
I doubt most of us need an alarm to know we're pulling that much.
UH

--
Dan, 5J

At 21:31 26 April 2017, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 2:45:05 PM UTC-4, Jonathon May wrote:
At 17:49 26 April 2017, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 10:30:05 AM UTC-7, George Haeh
wrote:
Well yes, we really don't want to go to extreme attitudes...

I definitely agree that we should teach recognition and remediation.

But I also think that the main point here is that a true kiting
incident
is
a divergent condition such that, once established, can easily escalate
at
a
rate beyond human control. So we have to be careful about how we
teach
it.

--Bob K.


I'm not a power/ tow pilot so this could be rubbish,but
Could an alarm be fitted at 90%back stick just to remind tug pilots
just
how
much up elevator they are using to prevent gradually drifting into a
potential
dangerous situation from which there will be no escape.

I doubt most of us need an alarm to know we're pulling that much.
UH
I am sure you are right,it's just as a glider pilot I rely on feel,and
this
changes with trim,which is why we should always trim for the approach or
take off.

Please do not consider training unless using simulation (only). There have been enough deaths and broken kit already. Chris Rollings in an earlier thread gave a detailed account of well constructed trials performed at height. It is not necessary to repeat these, surely. Please note his conclusions.If your glider has an approved mod. for a nose hook ( if it has only a winch hook) then consider having one fitted. Otherwise know that you could kill the tug pilot if for one brief moment you take your eyes off the tug (and respond immediately to the tug slipping below your field of view or to the strange accelerations which go with this in a "kiting" situation. ).

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 8:50:01 PM UTC+3, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 10:30:05 AM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
Well yes, we really don't want to go to extreme attitudes...

I definitely agree that we should teach recognition and remediation.

But I also think that the main point here is that a true kiting incident is a divergent condition such that, once established, can easily escalate at a rate beyond human control. So we have to be careful about how we teach it.

I would like to know what happens if you have a 1000+ ft aerotow rope and cause the glider to "winch launch" behind the tug.

I have a hunch that very very bad things start to happen long before there's any significant upward angle on the rope. Such as the tug virtually stopping mid air and stalling/falling.