For Keith Willshaw...

Ah yes the near total erase take 8. Now we are into Denyav debating
himself but assigning the words to me, nothing new here really, I timed
my effort at 5 minutes plus the 5 minute review before sending.

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.
19) JN-25 was an "easy" code, claim dropped.
20) Churchill quote meaning, claim dropped.
21) If you know one thing perfectly you must know another thing perfectly
(in an attempt to "prove" 1941 = 2001)
22) The war warnings become a blind rather than identifying Pearl as
the target. It would seem Denyav finally read the text after I posted it.
23) Allen Dulles, CIA chief saying they knew in 1941, claim dropped.
24) Denyav is now simply inventing things I have supposed to have said.

Denyav wrote in message ...
Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 7.
Now we are into Denyav debating nothing new here really, I timed my effort
at 5 minutes plus the 5 minute review before sending.

I hate to delete your detractors but we are now pretty familiar with your
position.

Translation Denyav has to delete my words and then tell the world
what he wants me to have said.

1)Calling everything,that point to the directions other than official
version,IRRELEVANT.

So please post the text where I said this,

My uses of the word irrelevant,

"Presumably the British reporting the codes were hard to break is
also irrelevant?"

"Let the laughs begin. Or more particularly Denyav's tour of web
sites looking for irrelevant quotes."

2)Accepting Japanase code blunder but claiming that US stopped code recovery
work in April 41,after recovering 5000 codes

Please provide the text where I said this.

Yes folks, Denyav is going to announce he does no idea on IJN
codes, confusing the recovery of random number meant to disguise
the code groups, (stage 1) with giving meaning to the code groups
(stage 3), stage 2 is listing the code groups in use.

3)Then accepting that code recovery did not stop in April.

Yes folks, I list the allied code recoveries to January 1942 and
that means I stopped talking about code recoveries in April 1941.
Simple logic really.

This is what I said, in a different thread,

The codes in question were the A5 and B5 versions. That is the code
book was changed from A to B but the additive (random number) book
was left at 5. In August 1945 the USN noted it had 4,907 out of 50,000
additives for the 5 book. Which explains quite well why the main effect
of the failure to change additive books did not compromise the code
values, but did compromise the fact the basic code system was still in use.

If it did compromise the code values then it should have compromised
the A version as well, yet the USN reports knowing around 5% of the
code values when work stopped around March 1941.

You see it is quite simple announce every random number recovered
is a JN-25B code book value, totally different thing of course but do not
let that stop you. Please continue this line, it shows how wrong you are.

Yes folks, Denyav has to announce he does not want to know multiple
times. The 5 additive book came into service on 1 October 1940 and
went out of service on 31 January 1941. It increased the size of the
random number tables from 30,000 to 50,000, plus allowing the clerk
to start from any column, not column 1 of a row on the chosen page.
This further required changes to the message group where the sender
told the receiver what random numbers were used. Helps explain why
the USN had less than 10% of the book after 4 months.

You are trying to defend an undefendable position and you need of course lots
of detractors for the defense.

This is becoming very funny, the defender of the undefendable
position is the one who needs to keep deleting all the evidence.

But dont worry many gov't employees have similar problems nowadays.

Ah yes, Denyav is trying to announce I am a government employee, which
he considers to be a great insult. He is as accurate here as elsewhere.
Oh yes, I trust he does not use money since it is only money if the government
says so, not government owned roads or parks etc. Or perhaps he does,
to award more medals for defying the (non existent) enemy.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

told the receiver what random numbers were used. Helps explain why
the USN had less than 10% of the book after 4 months.

So that means in April 1941,at the latest,US had 10% of the book in the hand.
Can you tell us the percentage of the book available to US on Dec.4,1941?

Or did US stop recovery work in April and started hibernating?

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
told the receiver what random numbers were used. Helps explain why
the USN had less than 10% of the book after 4 months.

So that means in April 1941,at the latest,US had 10% of the book in the
hand.
Can you tell us the percentage of the book available to US on Dec.4,1941?


Of the 50,000 code groups used only 3800 had been cracked

Or did US stop recovery work in April and started hibernating?

Nope the Japanese imtroduced a new 50,000 group additive
book in August 1941 which set them back months

They also had low priority, Joe Rochefort recorded that his group had
little
equipment, the tabulating machines and teletypes needed had been
diverted to the efforts to break the German and Italian codes and
the Japanese diplomatic cipher

He didnt even have a secure comms line to the radio intercept
station. All intercepts had to be delivered by courier. It wasnt
until Febuary 1942 that the group began to read even a small
portion of messages in JN-25

Keith

Of the 50,000 code groups used only 3800 had been cracked

Nope,by December almost 1000 were cracked.

ope the Japanese imtroduced a new 50,000 group additive
book in August 1941 which set them back months

Question was about April not August.
They also had low priority, Joe Rochefort recorded that his group had
little
equipment, the tabulating machines and teletypes needed had been
diverted to the efforts to break the German and Italian codes and
the Japanese diplomatic cipher

After Pearl Harbor suddenly everything changed and US (and British)code
breakers broke all codes that they were unable to crack in 12 months prior to
Pearl Harbor within a few months .
I wonder how this miracle happened,maybe your famous outer space aliens ,this
time masquerading as US (and British) code breakers made it happen.

He didnt even have a secure comms line to the radio intercept
station. All intercepts had to be delivered by courier. It wasnt
until Febuary 1942 that the group began to read even a small
portion of messages in JN-25

Even according to Safford 7000 codes were enough to read the most JN25B coded
messages and many messages could be read with 1500 codes.
Lets remember US had recovered almost 10000 codes by Dec.4

Denyav wrote in message ...
Of the 50,000 code groups used only 3800 had been cracked

Nope,by December almost 1000 were cracked.

Wrong, the December 1941 figure for JN-25B code groups
assigned meanings was 3,800.

ope the Japanese imtroduced a new 50,000 group additive
book in August 1941 which set them back months

Question was about April not August.

The reality is Denyav is unable to cope with the fact the number
in April 1941 was 300 JN-25B code groups assigned meanings.

They also had low priority, Joe Rochefort recorded that his group had
little
equipment, the tabulating machines and teletypes needed had been
diverted to the efforts to break the German and Italian codes and
the Japanese diplomatic cipher

After Pearl Harbor suddenly everything changed and US (and British)code
breakers broke all codes that they were unable to crack in 12 months prior to
Pearl Harbor within a few months .
I wonder how this miracle happened,maybe your famous outer space aliens ,this
time masquerading as US (and British) code breakers made it happen.

Translation the massive increases in resources thrown at the problem,
Hawaii had all those unemployed sailors from the sunken ships for
example, add the greater use of radio by the IJN giving more text, then
the fact that the code breakers started from knowing 3,800 meanings
in December 1941, not zero in December 1940, (and as everyone
knows it is easier to figure out a missing word in a sentence than a
missing sentence with only one word). The fact the code had uppercase
(2 meanings per code group) and auxiliary tables was known, the fact
the "next x groups uppercase" markers were well known and used as
ways to crack the messages (the difference table) in December 1941,
versus not being known in December 1940 and so on.

JN-25 was the sort of code that the more you knew the quicker you
could learn the missing parts.

Yes folks, Denyav tries to announce that the code was compromised
in 2 months in December 1940 and January 1941, but now has to
turn around and say the allies, with more resources, starting from a
much higher level of knowledge, could not compromise the code in
6 months. You see for Denyav to be right the allies went backwards
in 1942 when it came to reading JN-25. Simple really, just invent facts
and delete the problems.

By the way one of the signals used as "proof" the allies could read
JN-25 when required is the following, British dd/mm/yy format.

"XXXXX NAVAL MESSAGE T.O.O.2339A/12 IN Received: 12.2.42

Addressed: B.A.D. Washington 234
From: Admiralty
Japanese aircraft carrier SHOKAKU intends
to leave Yokosuka and pick up aircraft 9th February

It is intended preparations of First and
Second aircraft Squadrons were to complete 7th
February, sail and embark aircraft 8th. E.T.A.
Palao 1200/12th

All above from special intelligence. 2339A/12

This is now mid February 1942, with two extra
months of work, more resources, with more messages to
work on, with forward feedback in action (the fewer missing
words the easier it is to figure out the missing words, with
more of the random number encypherments known the
easier to strip them out). Note it took until the 12th to decrypt
the message which talks about the 7th in future tense, in other
words about a week to crack a simple message.

This has been used to claim real time decodings of much
larger messages in 1941.

So in mid February 1942 the allies could crack relatively
small, standard, messages after about a week.

He didnt even have a secure comms line to the radio intercept
station. All intercepts had to be delivered by courier. It wasnt
until Febuary 1942 that the group began to read even a small
portion of messages in JN-25

Even according to Safford 7000 codes were enough to read the most
JN25B coded messages and many messages could be read with 1500
codes.

Safford never wrote the work being quoted, and the example
appears to be about a special case in 1943.

Lets remember US had recovered almost 10000 codes by Dec.4

No, the 10,000 claim is straight fiction. The real number was 3,800


Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Of the 50,000 code groups used only 3800 had been cracked

Nope,by December almost 1000 were cracked.


1000 is less than 3800

ope the Japanese imtroduced a new 50,000 group additive
book in August 1941 which set them back months

Question was about April not August.

August comes after April

They also had low priority, Joe Rochefort recorded that his group had
little
equipment, the tabulating machines and teletypes needed had been
diverted to the efforts to break the German and Italian codes and
the Japanese diplomatic cipher

After Pearl Harbor suddenly everything changed and US (and British)code
breakers broke all codes that they were unable to crack in 12 months prior
to
Pearl Harbor within a few months .

Thats what typically happens when priorities change

I wonder how this miracle happened,maybe your famous outer space aliens
,this
time masquerading as US (and British) code breakers made it happen.


Extra money, people and equipment made it happen, just as the
US armed forces increased in size rather quickly, this tends
to happen during a major shooting war.

He didnt even have a secure comms line to the radio intercept
station. All intercepts had to be delivered by courier. It wasnt
until Febuary 1942 that the group began to read even a small
portion of messages in JN-25

Even according to Safford 7000 codes were enough to read the most JN25B
coded
messages and many messages could be read with 1500 codes.

Safford is not a good source, but since only 3,800 had been cracked !

Lets remember US had recovered almost 10000 codes by Dec.4



Nope.

Keith

000 is less than 3800

Obviously 10000,sorry for typo.

August comes after April
Right but still question was about April.

Thats what typically happens when priorities change

No,as soon as Japanese fleet assembled in early Nov.,OP-20-GY -1 was alerted
and devoted almost all of its resorces to JN25B messages on 7/24 basis.

Extra money, people and equipment made it happen, just as the
US armed forces increased in size rather quickly, this tends
to happen during a major shooting war.

Problem is that the US knew that it was going to happen almost one full year in
advance.

Safford is not a good source, but since only 3,800 had been cracked !

Safford is pretty good source if you add up monthly totals you will find
another number

Nope.

True sir US,(and Probably Brits) were able to read almost 90% of Jn25B
dispatches prior to Dec.7

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
000 is less than 3800

Obviously 10000,sorry for typo.

August comes after April
Right but still question was about April.


A change in August is clearly signifucant when considering
the situation in December

Thats what typically happens when priorities change

No,as soon as Japanese fleet assembled in early Nov.,OP-20-GY -1 was
alerted
and devoted almost all of its resorces to JN25B messages on 7/24 basis.


But had few such resources. There were only 36 trained cryptographers
available and at any one time only a small number (2 to 5) was assigned to
JN-25

Evcen had JN-25 been cracked Pearl Harbor attack plan was never broadcast
in JN-25 or any other cipher and the fleet maintained complete radio
silence.
All that could have been surmised was that an air attack somewhere
in the Pacific was likely. This had already been surmised which is why
the carriers of the USN were delivering extra aircraft to Midway
and Wake in early December 1941 and why Force Z which was
planned to include a carrier was sent by the RN to Singapore

Yamaoto's biographer (Hiroyuki Agawa) served under him in
the IJN and is quite clear that orders for the attack were
hand delivered and extreme precautions taken within the
navy to avoid compromising the plan.

Extra money, people and equipment made it happen, just as the
US armed forces increased in size rather quickly, this tends
to happen during a major shooting war.

Problem is that the US knew that it was going to happen almost one full
year in
advance.


No they knew AN attack was coming but the expected venue
was the Phillipines.

Safford is not a good source, but since only 3,800 had been cracked !

Safford is pretty good source if you add up monthly totals you will find
another number


Your misrepresenting his words isnt helpful.

Nope.

True sir US,(and Probably Brits) were able to read almost 90% of Jn25B
dispatches prior to Dec.7

No sir they were not, the data released from Bletchley Park
as written about in 'The Emperors Codes' by Michael Smith
makes it quite clear that neither nation was reading
JN-25 at that time. This is reinforced by the
"History of OP-20-GYP-1"


Keith

Ah yes the near total erase take 9. Now we are into Denyav trying
to change additive books into code group books. I timed
my effort at 5 minutes plus the 5 minute review before sending.

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.
19) JN-25 was an "easy" code, claim dropped.
20) Churchill quote meaning, claim dropped.
21) If you know one thing perfectly you must know another thing perfectly
(in an attempt to "prove" 1941 = 2001)
22) The war warnings become a blind rather than identifying Pearl as
the target. It would seem Denyav finally read the text after I posted it.
23) Allen Dulles, CIA chief saying they knew in 1941, claim dropped.
24) Denyav is now simply inventing things I have supposed to have said.
25) Denyav is going to keep taking the number of random numbers
recovered and changing this to code group meaning recoveries.
25) It would seem the proof about what I said was irrelevant is not
able to be presented, so claim dropped.
26) The sad attempt to decide where I work has been dropped.

Denyav wrote in message ...

Deleted text,

"Yes folks, Denyav has to announce he does not want to know multiple
times. The 5 additive book came into service on 1 October 1940 and
went out of service on 31 January 1941. It increased the size of the
random number tables from 30,000 to 50,000, plus allowing the clerk
to start from any column, not column 1 of a row on the chosen page.
This further required changes to the message group where the sender"

told the receiver what random numbers were used. Helps explain why
the USN had less than 10% of the book after 4 months.

So that means in April 1941,at the latest,US had 10% of the book in the hand.
Can you tell us the percentage of the book available to US on Dec.4,1941?

Ah this is really really funny, thanks for confirming how little you
care about reality. The book in question is the 5 additive book
as the deleted text makes clear, but that has to be erased,
instead "the book" has to be redefined as the B code book.

People are no doubt well aware by now the multiple times I
have posted the recoveries of the B code book code groups.

Or did US stop recovery work in April and started hibernating?

Yes folks, Denyav is going to use the fact the US stopped working
on the A code book (replaced 1 December 1940) and the 5 additive
book (replaced 1 February 1941) as an attempt to simply close down
the debate into what he would prefer I wrote.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.