For Keith Willshaw...

deleted text,

"As usual most of my words are deleted, new tactic time though, simply
lie about what has been written. Denyav has decided to go back to
a message I wrote on June 14, bypassing the JN-25 information I
posted more recently. I await with interest his retrieval of information
I sent in say 1990 as another desperate tactic to avoid actually answering.

"I expect him to heroically delete my reply and the heroically repeat he
is repeating his same junk. Two heroic acts means another self
awarded medal."

yes folks, if the theory requires a pink elephant driving a BMW
while towing a trailer upon which a giraffe is doing the hula dance
Denyav will announce elephants go to slimming clubs, wear lots
of pink make up and can drive, while giraffes are native to Hawaii.

Denyav wrote in message ...
Nice to see you in the forum again,I guess you dont work,oops I meant
post,on weekends.

This is becoming very funny, ever heard of a weekend away?
Ever heard of the idea things can wait a few days?

Perfect enjoy it.

This should be good, the attempt to imply I am paid to spend so
much time laughing will no doubt continue.

deleted text,

Denyav has decided this is my work it seems, which is great, I
will get his address and send him the bill.

Yes folks, Denyav's word is classified by him as Holy writ, no proof
is required. Much laughter generated. I am still waiting for proof
about what I am supposed to have dated the McCollum memo. I
like the way Denyav assumes because he needs to hide the truth
the same applies to others.

No what the people are saying does not match what Denyav is
saying.

Unfortunately what people says,from Churchill to Dulles,from Stimson to
Hoover and countless others is IRRELEVANT for you because they do
not match what you are telling us.

Translation Denyav needs to pretend he has people agreeing with
him even when they do not. Churchill, Stimson and Hoover for a start,
Dulles without any attempt to provide the evidence. "countless" is
defined as Denyav counting himself multiple time, 1, 2 3, many.

You see folks, Denyav has decided where I work without proof and
has to pretend he is a majority.

Did I say "You are a gov' t employee"?
NO.
But your response to that is interesting.

Translation Denyav will continue to try and smear, using his ideas of
insults of course. He has announced he is not paid to push his jokes,
which is not surprising, those who know the truth would not pay to push
lies and those pushing the lies would not pay for such mediocre efforts.

Note now the absurd attempt to try and avoid the fact he has no
long range "what does that person do" device.

Denyav is into self pity. The conspiracy to lie about a conspiracy.

Which reminds me your posts.


The last post was while waiting for a haircut, the person next to me
wanted to know where the site with all the great jokes were since I
was laughing so much. His response when I told him what was
going on, without the adjectives, was "conspiracies are for losers".

As people can see the evidence is deleted.

Detractors sir,nothing but detractors.

Yes folks, if the evidence does not fit ignore it.

Strange that, but Denyav needs to go off and pretend about what I said,
from a post where I gave the recovered code values totals until the end
of 1941, Denyav keeps deleting the totals.

Only after claiming that recovery work had been stopped in March after recovery
of almost 5000 codes.

Simply I never said that, another claim without proof.

As you now say recovery work did stop in March.

Denyav is having trouble coping with the idea the work on the A code
stopped after it went out of service while work picked up on the B code.

BTW 5000 code recoveries in three months is a good performance and enabled
US,as Safford stated enough to read the most of Japanase traffic.

By the way folks Denyav is going to keep announcing he has no
idea about the code, changing recoveries of random numbers
into recovery of the meanings of code groups. The allies knew
around 5,000 random numbers from the 5 additive book, which
ended use on 31 January 1941. They had 300 B code group
meanings assigned by 1 April 1941. Different things.

deleted text, on the idea the failure to change additives compromised
the B code.

"If it did compromise the code values then it should have compromised
the A version as well, yet the USN reports knowing around 5% of the
code values when work stopped around March 1941.

Thanks for a really great laugh, they US recovered around 5,000 random
number additives of the 5 additive book, out of 50,000, the additive book
that had been in use for months before the A to B codebook change over.
This gives an idea of just how little the allies could read in early 1941
since the additives needed to be removed before the code groups could
be looked at.

This is great, this shows Denyav's techniques so well.

Firstly changing the random numbers, additives, into code values.
The random numbers, additives, are used to disguise the code
groups and need to be removed first, no additives no code groups.

Secondly ignoring the fact the "5" version of the code stopped being
used in January 1941 and the USN stopped working on the A version
in around March 1941, since the IJN decided to stop using the A code

deleted text,

"in December 1940. Just try and pretend I am running some sort of
line the USN stopped work at that time. Above all do not even begin
to understand that Washington was weeks behind current intercepts
because they were mailed in from the Pacific.

Thirdly changing the subject. Move away from the fact that if the
failure to change additive books compromised the B code it
must have compromised the A code, since the US had only 5%
of the A code book when work ended on it around March 1941."

Now your correction comes?

Yes folks, Denyav cannot cope with reality so pretend the story
has changed.

Move away from the fact that if the
failure to change additive books compromised the B code it
must have compromised the A code, since the US had only 5%
of the A code book when work ended on it around March 1941.

Actually work never ended.

So tell us all please what A code values did the US recover in say
the second half of 1941?


Deleted text,

"Yes folks, Holy Writ time, no proof offered about what they could read.
By the way if it was 90% by December 1941 can you explain how this"

percentage went down by April/May 1942, when the allies were trying
to figure out Midway and Coral Sea? Or that the all knowing intelligence
system missed the IJN battleships coming out at Midway and the way
the IJN carriers came into the

Could you tell me, surely you know the story,how US only a couple of months
after Pearl Harbor were able to read IJN messages in entirety.?

yes folks, Denyav cannot answer how come his claims mean the
US could read less in 1942 than in 1941 so it is time to change
the subject.

The reason the allies could read more in 1942 was quite simple,
they had recovered more of the code. I like the idea what was
possible in May 1942 is supposed to be less than November
1941 despite 6 months more work. Oh yes the USN went onto
trying to read IJN messages immediately on 18 March 1942,
it was then they had enough of the code to try this.

Midway is based almost solely on intelligence superiority.
Sometimes you are contradicting yourself.

Yes folks, just announce in effect the US went backwards
in code reading ability in 1941 to fit the conspiracy.

Deleted text,

"How about the fact just before midway the allies were intercepting
around 60% of IJN traffic and decoding about 20% of the intercepted
messages, plus gaining some parts of around 70% of messages.

"As of 20 April 1945 the USN found it had 35,761 additives of JN-25B7,
the version in use 1 August to 3 December 1941, with the probability
several hundred might be bad. So 70% of the additives were thought
to be known, this was upped to 47,500 by August 1945, as part of the
reworking of the messages. As of 1 December 1941 the USN thought
it knew 3,800 code group meanings.

Yes folks, the fact the IJN used the old additive book told the allies
the basic code system was still in place, 5 digit code groups with
valid numbers divisible by 3.

There was no need to worry about basic information like say the
new valid code groups were now divisible by say 2.

Just ignore the new code introduced auxiliary tables, two meanings
for the same code group, and stopped having the code groups in
alphabetical order. Just pretend the IJN radioed the code book
to the allies.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

If you would like to know the exact code groups recovered it was
"Unfinished or Continuous" [i.e., a running tally]

April 1, 1941: "approximately 300 values recovered"
May 1, 1941: "approximately 400 values recovered"
June 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"

uly 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
August 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Sept 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Oct 1, 1941: "approximately 2400

Roughly 10000 values according to Safford more than enough
to read the most of the IJN traffic.

This is good, the allies have 2,400 values but the claim is they
needed 10,000. Note by the way how many the allies had in January
1942 below. Denyav will now painfully put 2 and 2 together and
come up with a convenient number. See the tracking of the recoveries
shows why the allies could actually read JN-25 in 1942 but not 1941.

Deleted text,

"Completed during October 1941"
Nov 1, 1941: "600 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,000 values as of
this date]

"Completed during November 1941"
Dec 1, 1941: "800 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,800 values as of
this date]

"Unfinished or continuous"
Jan 1, 1942: "Approximately 6,180 values recovered"

Remembering some previously assigned values could be changed
by later discoveries.

So by the end of December 1941 the allies thought they had around 7%
of the code book recovered.

By the way people will be happy to know the quote assigned
to Safford (about the number of code groups needed) was
written by someone else, and appears to be related to a
situation in 1943 where units were sending very standardised
messages. Hard to tell exactly given how badly the quote is transcribed.

Translation Denyav chooses to supply URLs with no evidence.

I think anybody with subs.to the Proceeding can access to article.

So Denyav will continue to avoid presenting the evidence.

been
in on the conspiracy right. After all if any arm of the US government
does the same the claim is it was part of a conspiracy.

So this documentary is on Pearl Harbor right?

No,but on a copy cat version of Pearl Harbor.

When did the IJN attack US territory again after 1942?
Where did the new IJN carriers come from?

Willey is like Stinnett, the evidence does not match the claims.

Of course,only official's claims match evidences,because they are
the ones who produce official evidences.

Thanks for admitting the conspiracy people do not match the evidence.

Post war would be easily possible, as part of the investigations even.

No,dont you know some selected senators always meet behind closed doors.

Ah a good laugh does wonders for the soul. Apparently Senators
and Congressman, some major opponents of FDR, failed to make
the evidence public and now this is apparently because they
always meet behind closed doors. Presumably never let out onto
the floor of the house etc.

deleted text,

"Ah yes, so he kept the secret until he died, allowing the system to
railroad the commanders etc. etc. Dies was a very anti communist
person, the claimed information could be used to discredit much
of the democrat administration even post war, but strange to tell
the claimed information never surfaces until people are dead."

This should be funny, presumably Denyav can read Dutch,
including the Captain's shorthan

You bet.

But fails to provide the evidence.

custody of. Meantime
Denyav quotes the conspiracy custodians, the ones who have
custody of the conspiracy to lie about the events of 1941, people
like Stinnett and Willey

I think you are the conspiracy custodian,sir
Numbers declining but still exist.

Yes folks, delete the evidence and you can claim anything.

rest of the post is deleted text,

"Yes folks, change the subject, since the Red Cross decided to
prepare in case Hawaii was attacked by air they must have been
in on the conspiracy right. After all if any arm of the US government
does the same the claim is it was part of a conspiracy.

Translation Denyav denies the tide is in, the air is just a little wet.

By the way in case people are wondering Denyav is wandering the
conspiracy theory web sites, yet again Mark Willey's one or
conspiracy central, looking for that out of context quote to throw in.
Just type a key phrase into a search engine and see which site
Denyav is copying, watch the typos though.

Yes folks, remember the conspiracy to cause Pearl Harbor must
have happened pre war and that Churchill says all the decoded
messages were released.

In case people are wondering Denyav is mining the conspiracy
site of Mark Willey, the name he dare not utter, presumably he will
endorse the claim the US was trying to lose Coral Sea and Midway
as well and that the US never gave Pearl Harbor any help cracking
JN-25, the unit there had to start from scratch in December 1941.

There are more names to be added from the page if Denyav wants
to continue this line, you know the world is flat because some people
say it is.

Willey is like Stinnett, the evidence does not match the claims.

Which Rhorpe? I presume the claimed messages sent by General
Thorpe. The problem is quite simple, the Japanese diplomatic
system did not know about the attack on Pearl Harbor, rather hard
to credit a cracked diplomatic message with having the information.

Instead what was intercepted was the "winds message" set up,
the open code to be sent if communications were cut telling the
Japanese about who the Japanese were about to be at war with.

See, Thorpe, Elliott R. East Wind Rain: The Intimate Account of an
Intelligence Officer in the Pacific, 1939-1949. Boston: Gambit, 1969.

No, the IJN officers present told people about the communications.
This is the trouble for the conspiracy the IJN keeps shooting it down.

Oh yes, Leib waited until after Hull was dead before telling the
world of his claims. Does this make Hull a conspirator? If so
a stupid one by letting the claimed secret out?

(on the claimed New York article of 8 December 1941)

Yes folks, the article does not appear instead we are left to believe
no one in New Your noticed it.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

This should be good, the attempt to imply I am paid to spend so
much time laughing will no doubt continue.


Surely you are not paid to protect official position.

Translation Denyav needs to pretend he has people agreeing with
him even when they do not. Churchill, Stimson and Hoover for a start,
Dulles without any attempt to

They do not agree with me,but I do agree with what they say.Thats a small but
important difference.

provide the evidence. "countless" is
defined as Denyav counting himself multiple time, 1, 2 3, many.

I quoted them several times in my posts too but according to you they were
"irrelevant"
How soon you forgat that.


Translation Denyav will continue to try and smear, using his ideas of
insults of course. He has announced he is not paid to push his jokes,
which is not surprising, those who know the truth would not pay to push

Apparently many sharing these ideas,people know that what their officials are
telling them is not always the truth.


Yes folks, if the evidence does not fit ignore it.

The evidences that you find find "irrelevant" could easily qualify for the
above.

Simply I never said that, another claim without proof.

I guess you do not even read your own posts.

Denyav is having trouble coping with the idea the work on the A code
stopped after it went out of service while work picked up on the B code.

An other way of backpedalling or accepting code recovery work has never been
stopped.BTW hiding behind terms is a pretty common way.

By the way folks Denyav is going to keep announcing he has no
idea about the code, changing recoveries of random numbers
into recovery of the meanings of code groups. The allies knew
around 5,000 random numbers from the 5 additive book, which

Lots of detractors included to this part of message so obviously there is
something to hide here.

Lets summarize your own position:
1)You said that codes are something like a special language.I agree.
2)You said the recovering of the codes is something like learning a
language,slow and time consuming.Agreed.
3)Now you are trying to defend your not defendable position by hiding an
alphabet soup.
4)If we continue to use language analogy:JN25A and B are not different
languages they are different dialects of the same language.But you are trying
to sell them as as if they were different languages
5)Lets continue to use language analogy:
How many words are there in any language,for example English?
How many words do you use everday?
Very small percentage I guess.
That was exactly the point of Safford when he asserted that 7000 codes were
enough to read almost all JN25B coded messages,even though JN25B had almost
55000 codes.
Now you are trying to use alphabet as detractor and trying to hide the fact
that US had just before PH had 10000 JN25B codes in the hand,which was
,according to Safford,much more than he needed to read the most of JN25B
dispatces !.
6)Now Midway,its enlightening to see that the custodians of official version
are actually challenging the official version to defend their hard to defend
positions.
On many issues the officials and historians disagree,but Midway is not one of
them,there is a consensus among historians that the outcome of Midway is the
product the superior intelligence.
So According to your assertions US intellingence that was unable to recover
enough codes in 12 months prior to Pearl Harbor to read Japanase messages but
After Pearl Harbor US intelligence managed to achive within a few months what
it could not do in one year before PH!.
How did they do that? Maybe now famous outer space aliens helped them to
recover codes after PH?.

By the way people will be happy to know the quote assigned
to Safford (about the number of code groups needed) was
written by someone else, and appears to be related to a
situation in 1943 where units were sending very standardised
messages. Hard to tell exactly given how badly the quote is

Yeah right,His words are irrelevant too.

When did the IJN attack US territory again after 1942?
Where did the new IJN carriers come from?

Replace IJN with OBL,japanese pilots with Atta&Co,replace Japanese planes with
Boeings.

Thanks for admitting the conspiracy people do not match the evidence.

Thanks for admitting the official people do indeed produce the evidence.

h yes, Leib waited until after Hull was dead before telling the
world of his claims. Does this make Hull a conspirator? If so
a stupid one by letting the claimed secret out?

It was no secret that Hull was not very fond of FDR-Stimson-Marshall trios'
plans and also it was very well known that Leib was a close friend of Hull.
The Motive of leakage to Leib was probably to warn Japanase but who knows?

Most of this message is simply deleted text put back in.

deleted text,

"As usual most of my words are deleted, new tactic time though, simply
lie about what has been written. Denyav has decided to go back to
a message I wrote on June 14, bypassing the JN-25 information I
posted more recently. I await with interest his retrieval of information
I sent in say 1990 as another desperate tactic to avoid actually answering.

"I expect him to heroically delete my reply and the heroically repeat he
is repeating his same junk. Two heroic acts means another self
awarded medal."

yes folks, if the theory requires a pink elephant driving a BMW
while towing a trailer upon which a giraffe is doing the hula dance
Denyav will announce elephants go to slimming clubs, wear lots
of pink make up and can drive, while giraffes are native to Hawaii.

Denyav wrote in message ...
This should be good, the attempt to imply I am paid to spend so
much time laughing will no doubt continue.

Surely you are not paid to protect official position.

Yes folks, the full retreat starts.

deleted text,

Denyav has decided this is my work it seems, which is great, I
will get his address and send him the bill.

Yes folks, Denyav's word is classified by him as Holy writ, no proof
is required. Much laughter generated. I am still waiting for proof
about what I am supposed to have dated the McCollum memo. I
like the way Denyav assumes because he needs to hide the truth
the same applies to others.

Translation Denyav needs to pretend he has people agreeing with
him even when they do not. Churchill, Stimson and Hoover for a start,
Dulles without any attempt to

They do not agree with me,but I do agree with what they say.
Thats a small but important difference.

Churchill, all the decoded messages placed in the public arena.
Stimson, the Japanese must fire first. Dulles a claimed quote,
Hoover no quote at all presented.

See any Pearl Harbor conspiracies there?

provide the evidence. "countless" is
defined as Denyav counting himself multiple time, 1, 2 3, many.

I quoted them several times in my posts too but according to you they were
"irrelevant" How soon you forgat that.

Translation Denyav will not allow the quotes to exist in the same
message where the flaws in them are pointed out. Oh yes, the
"irrelevant" claim is simply another invention.

Translation Denyav will continue to try and smear, using his ideas of
insults of course. He has announced he is not paid to push his jokes,
which is not surprising, those who know the truth would not pay to push

Deleted text,

lies and those pushing the lies would not pay for such mediocre efforts.

Note now the absurd attempt to try and avoid the fact he has no
long range "what does that person do" device.

Apparently many sharing these ideas,people know that what their officials are
telling them is not always the truth.

Translation if a person in public life tells a lie about being given
a speeding ticket, they must be clearly responsible for mass murder.

Yes folks, if the evidence does not fit ignore it.

The evidences that you find find "irrelevant" could easily qualify for the
above.

Yes folks, Denyav tells us he ignores the evidence that does
not fit.

Simply I never said that, another claim without proof.

I guess you do not even read your own posts.

This is really funny, Denyav cannot provide any evidence, all
he can keep providing is the fiction he prefers to the truth.

Note how the text on what "I never said" is deleted, it has
to be since Denyav cannot back the claim.

Denyav is having trouble coping with the idea the work on the A code
stopped after it went out of service while work picked up on the B code.

An other way of backpedalling or accepting code recovery work has never been
stopped.BTW hiding behind terms is a pretty common way.

Denyav is having trouble coping with the idea the work on the A code
stopped after it went out of service while work picked up on the B code.

By the way folks Denyav is going to keep announcing he has no
idea about the code, changing recoveries of random numbers
into recovery of the meanings of code groups. The allies knew
around 5,000 random numbers from the 5 additive book, which

deleted text,

"ended use on 31 January 1941. They had 300 B code group
meanings assigned by 1 April 1941. Different things.

deleted text, on the idea the failure to change additives compromised
the B code.

"If it did compromise the code values then it should have compromised
the A version as well, yet the USN reports knowing around 5% of the
code values when work stopped around March 1941.

Thanks for a really great laugh, they US recovered around 5,000 random
number additives of the 5 additive book, out of 50,000, the additive book
that had been in use for months before the A to B codebook change over.
This gives an idea of just how little the allies could read in early 1941
since the additives needed to be removed before the code groups could
be looked at.

This is great, this shows Denyav's techniques so well.

Firstly changing the random numbers, additives, into code values.
The random numbers, additives, are used to disguise the code
groups and need to be removed first, no additives no code groups.

Lots of detractors included to this part of message so obviously there is
something to hide here.

Yes folks, Denyav cannot cope with the facts, they must have a
hidden message in them.

Lets summarize your own position:
1)You said that codes are something like a special language.I agree.
2)You said the recovering of the codes is something like learning a
language,slow and time consuming.Agreed.
3)Now you are trying to defend your not defendable position by hiding an
alphabet soup.

Yes folks, Denyav now announces he cannot cope with the facts.

4)If we continue to use language analogy:JN25A and B are not different
languages they are different dialects of the same language. But you are
trying to sell them as as if they were different languages

Sigh, A code, groups in order, that is alphabetical and numerical,
one meaning per code group.
B code, groups scrambled, 2 meanings for most of the code groups,
auxiliary tables for key items.

The "different dialects" is basically another attempt to try the
"easily breakable" line.

5)Lets continue to use language analogy:
How many words are there in any language,for example English?
How many words do you use everday?
Very small percentage I guess.

Just ignore the fact the wonder messages claimed to be intercepted
were using the unusual language, and in any case the messages were
not sent by radio.

That was exactly the point of Safford when he asserted that 7000
codes were enough to read almost all JN25B coded messages,
even though JN25B had almost 55000 codes.

1) It was not Safford.
2) It appears the quote is about a specific case in 1943.

Now you are trying to use alphabet as detractor and trying to hide the fact
that US had just before PH had 10000 JN25B codes in the hand,which was
,according to Safford,much more than he needed to read the most of JN25B
dispatces !.

Yes folks, Denyav needs a fact so he creates one, the number of groups
recovered was around 3,800 to 1 December 1941.

6)Now Midway,its enlightening to see that the custodians of official version
are actually challenging the official version to defend their hard to defend
positions.

Yes folks Denyav now needs to invent a whole new history. Apparently
the fact the contribution allied intercepts and code breaking made has
been known for decades has to be rewritten.

On many issues the officials and historians disagree,but Midway is not one of
them,there is a consensus among historians that the outcome of Midway is the
product the superior intelligence.

The ability of the USN to read the IJN codes gave them the best
chance yet to ambush the IJN.

So According to your assertions US intellingence that was unable to recover
enough codes in 12 months prior to Pearl Harbor to read Japanase messages but After Pearl Harbor US intelligence managed to achive
within a few months what it could not do in one year before PH!.

Yes folks Denyav does not have a clue, and needs to debate himself
to avoid the facts. Reality says the allies knew how JN-25B worked
in December 1941 but lacked enough code group meanings to read
the messages. That changed in 1942 when the allies threw more
resources at the problem, using the techniques developed in 1941
to crack the code.

deleted text,

"Secondly ignoring the fact the "5" version of the code stopped being
used in January 1941 and the USN stopped working on the A version
in around March 1941, since the IJN decided to stop using the A code
in December 1940. Just try and pretend I am running some sort of
line the USN stopped work at that time. Above all do not even begin
to understand that Washington was weeks behind current intercepts
because they were mailed in from the Pacific.

Thirdly changing the subject. Move away from the fact that if the
failure to change additive books compromised the B code it
must have compromised the A code, since the US had only 5%
of the A code book when work ended on it around March 1941."

How did they do that? Maybe now famous outer space aliens helped them to
recover codes after PH?.

Yes folks, Denyav tries to announce that the code was compromised
in 2 months in December 1940 and January 1941, but now has to
turn around and say the allies, with more resources, starting from a
much higher level of knowledge, could not compromise the code in
6 months. You see for Denyav to be right the allies went backwards
in 1942 when it came to reading JN-25. Simple really, just invent facts
and delete the problems.

Deleted text,

"So tell us all please what A code values did the US recover in say
the second half of 1941?

Yes folks, Holy Writ time, no proof offered about what they could read.
By the way if it was 90% by December 1941 can you explain how this
percentage went down by April/May 1942, when the allies were trying
to figure out Midway and Coral Sea? Or that the all knowing intelligence
system missed the IJN battleships coming out at Midway and the way
the IJN carriers came [into the Coral Sea behind the US carriers.]

yes folks, Denyav cannot answer how come his claims mean the
US could read less in 1942 than in 1941 so it is time to change
the subject.

The reason the allies could read more in 1942 was quite simple,
they had recovered more of the code. I like the idea what was
possible in May 1942 is supposed to be less than November
1941 despite 6 months more work. Oh yes the USN went onto
trying to read IJN messages immediately on 18 March 1942,
it was then they had enough of the code to try this.

Yes folks, just announce in effect the US went backwards
in code reading ability in 1941 to fit the conspiracy.

Deleted text,

"How about the fact just before midway the allies were intercepting
around 60% of IJN traffic and decoding about 20% of the intercepted
messages, plus gaining some parts of around 70% of messages.

"As of 20 April 1945 the USN found it had 35,761 additives of JN-25B7,
the version in use 1 August to 3 December 1941, with the probability
several hundred might be bad. So 70% of the additives were thought
to be known, this was upped to 47,500 by August 1945, as part of the
reworking of the messages. As of 1 December 1941 the USN thought
it knew 3,800 code group meanings.

Yes folks, the fact the IJN used the old additive book told the allies
the basic code system was still in place, 5 digit code groups with
valid numbers divisible by 3.

There was no need to worry about basic information like say the
new valid code groups were now divisible by say 2.

Just ignore the new code introduced auxiliary tables, two meanings
for the same code group, and stopped having the code groups in
alphabetical order. Just pretend the IJN radioed the code book
to the allies.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

If you would like to know the exact code groups recovered it was
"Unfinished or Continuous" [i.e., a running tally]

April 1, 1941: "approximately 300 values recovered"
May 1, 1941: "approximately 400 values recovered"
June 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
July 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
August 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Sept 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Oct 1, 1941: "approximately 2400

"Completed during October 1941"
Nov 1, 1941: "600 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,000 values as of
this date]

"Completed during November 1941"
Dec 1, 1941: "800 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,800 values as of
this date]

"Unfinished or continuous"
Jan 1, 1942: "Approximately 6,180 values recovered"

Remembering some previously assigned values could be changed
by later discoveries.

So by the end of December 1941 the allies thought they had around 7%
of the code book recovered.

By the way people will be happy to know the quote assigned
to Safford (about the number of code groups needed) was
written by someone else, and appears to be related to a
situation in 1943 where units were sending very standardised
messages. Hard to tell exactly given how badly the quote is
transcribed.

Yeah right,His words are irrelevant too.

Yes folks, instead of providing the quote in context, with proper
author Denyav will simply ignore the problems.

When did the IJN attack US territory again after 1942?
Where did the new IJN carriers come from?

Replace IJN with OBL,japanese pilots with Atta&Co,
replace Japanese planes with Boeings.

Yes folks, since the US railways used steam engines in 1941
the US railways use steam engines in 2001. Same logic.

Thanks for admitting the conspiracy people do not match the evidence.

Thanks for admitting the official people do indeed produce the evidence.

Yes the official people do produce the evidence, all non conspiracy.

deleted text,

"Ah a good laugh does wonders for the soul. Apparently Senators
and Congressman, some major opponents of FDR, failed to make
the evidence public and now this is apparently because they
always meet behind closed doors. Presumably never let out onto
the floor of the house etc.

Ah yes, so he kept the secret until he died, allowing the system to
railroad the commanders etc. etc. Dies was a very anti communist
person, the claimed information could be used to discredit much
of the democrat administration even post war, but strange to tell
the claimed information never surfaces until people are dead.

"Yes folks, change the subject, since the Red Cross decided to
prepare in case Hawaii was attacked by air they must have been
in on the conspiracy right. After all if any arm of the US government
does the same the claim is it was part of a conspiracy.

Translation Denyav denies the tide is in, the air is just a little wet.

By the way in case people are wondering Denyav is wandering the
conspiracy theory web sites, yet again Mark Willey's one or
conspiracy central, looking for that out of context quote to throw in.
Just type a key phrase into a search engine and see which site
Denyav is copying, watch the typos though.

Yes folks, remember the conspiracy to cause Pearl Harbor must
have happened pre war and that Churchill says all the decoded
messages were released.

In case people are wondering Denyav is mining the conspiracy
site of Mark Willey, the name he dare not utter, presumably he will
endorse the claim the US was trying to lose Coral Sea and Midway
as well and that the US never gave Pearl Harbor any help cracking
JN-25, the unit there had to start from scratch in December 1941.

There are more names to be added from the page if Denyav wants
to continue this line, you know the world is flat because some people
say it is.

Willey is like Stinnett, the evidence does not match the claims.

Which Rhorpe? I presume the claimed messages sent by General
Thorpe. The problem is quite simple, the Japanese diplomatic
system did not know about the attack on Pearl Harbor, rather hard
to credit a cracked diplomatic message with having the information.

Instead what was intercepted was the "winds message" set up,
the open code to be sent if communications were cut telling the
Japanese about who the Japanese were about to be at war with.

See, Thorpe, Elliott R. East Wind Rain: The Intimate Account of an
Intelligence Officer in the Pacific, 1939-1949. Boston: Gambit, 1969.

No, the IJN officers present told people about the communications.
This is the trouble for the conspiracy the IJN keeps shooting it down."

h yes, Leib waited until after Hull was dead before telling the
world of his claims. Does this make Hull a conspirator? If so
a stupid one by letting the claimed secret out?

It was no secret that Hull was not very fond of FDR-Stimson-Marshall trios'
plans and also it was very well known that Leib was a close friend of Hull.
The Motive of leakage to Leib was probably to warn Japanase but who knows?

Yes folks, just ignore the fact Leib waited until no one could
contradict his claims, the fact the signal claimed being
discussed was never sent by radio, the fact Leib is supposed
to have written about it in the New York Times on 8 December
1941 but it seems no one noticed, a the time, during the war
or after the war. Oh yes I like the way Hull is put as an outsider
to the FDR-Stimson-Marshall "plot". Marshall is interesting,
much more to do with his post war activities, after all Admiral
Stark was head of the Navy, the service actually trying to
decode IJN signals, not the Army, but FDR-Stimson-Stark
does not work because the objective is to smear.

So let us understand this correctly Denyav is accusing Hull of
giving away one of the US's greatest military secrets, the ability
to read IJN codes,

(Dutch Captain goes missing as well)

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Churchill, all the decoded messages placed in the public arena.
Stimson, the Japanese must fire first. Dulles a claimed quote,
Hoover no quote at all presente


Churchill:"..from the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the vital Japanase
ciphers and were decoding large numbers of their Military and diplomatic
telegrams"

FDR:"The war starts tomorrow"
Dec.6,1941

As I said before being a custodian of conspiracies is a tough job nowadays.
See any Pearl Harbor conspiracies there?

Yeah right,nobody sees anything.
Translation if a person in public life tells a lie about being given
a speeding ticket, they must be clearly responsible for mass murder.

Translation if a public person or official tells a capital lie about Pearl
Harbor,there is no reason to believe that they are telling truth about other
similar incidents,for example 9/11.

Denyav is having trouble coping with the idea the work on the A code
stopped after it went out of service while work picked up on the B code.

Congrulations you have finally accepted that recovery work did not stop in
March or April 1941 but actually accelerated.

1) It was not Safford.
2) It appears the quote is about a specific case in 1943.


It was Safford it refers to whole JN25B decoding process.Yes folks, Denyav
needs a fact so he creates one, the number of groups

recovered was around 3,800 to 1 December 1941.


Just add up your own monthly recovery numbers after April 41 without trying to
hide the numbers behind some definition walls,you will find a totally different
number,and this number will be very close to 10000.

Yes folks Denyav now needs to invent a whole new history. Apparently
the fact the contribution allied intercepts and code breaking made has
been known for decades has to be rewritten.


You are excellent in contradicting yourself.
How the Allies that,according to your own statements,were so incapable of
reading JN25B messages prior to Pearl Harbor,became so sophisticated and
efficient code breakers right after Pearl Harbor.
How did this miracle happen,with the help of Mr.Willshaws outer space aliens
maybe?

The ability of the USN to read the IJN codes gave them the best
chance yet to ambush the IJN.

Heck,wasn't it the SAME USN that was unable to read any JN25B messages only a
few months ago?
I guess USN recruited outer space aliens as code breakers right after Pearl
Harbor

Yes folks Denyav does not have a clue, and needs to debate himself
to avoid the facts. Reality says the allies knew how JN-25B worked
in December 1941 but lacked enough code group meanings to

Nice use of detractors,Allies knew how JN25B worked already in December
1940,not in December 1941.
There is one full year difference and Allies did go to hibernating in December
1940.
to figure out Midway and Coral Sea? Or that the all knowing intelligence
system missed the IJN battleships coming out at Midway and the way
the IJN carriers came [into the Coral Sea behind the US carriers.]

Wasn't Midway a victory of superior intelligence gathering?

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Churchill, all the decoded messages placed in the public arena.
Stimson, the Japanese must fire first. Dulles a claimed quote,
Hoover no quote at all presente


Churchill:"..from the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the vital
Japanase
ciphers and were decoding large numbers of their Military and diplomatic
telegrams"


Indeed they had penetrated Purple , the diplomatic cipher
and a number of other codes, but not JN-25

FDR:"The war starts tomorrow"
Dec.6,1941


Quite so , an attack of the Phillipines and Malaya
was expected and all Pacific commands had been
issued a war warning.

Keith

Indeed they had penetrated Purple , the diplomatic cipher
and a number of other codes, but not JN-25

But Mr.Churchill clearly stated "..military and diplomatic.." which includes
JN25 too.


Quite so , an attack of the Phillipines and Malaya
was expected and all Pacific commands had been
issued a war warning.

So called War Warning was designed not to warn Pearl Harbor but to draw
attention away from Pearl Harbor,even though US learned on Nov.25 that the
Pearl Harbor was the target.
That was the reason why Naval Court of Inqury exonarated Kimmel.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Indeed they had penetrated Purple , the diplomatic cipher
and a number of other codes, but not JN-25

But Mr.Churchill clearly stated "..military and diplomatic.." which
includes
JN25 too.


He didnt say 'ALL military' so it clearly does not


Quite so , an attack of the Phillipines and Malaya
was expected and all Pacific commands had been
issued a war warning.

So called War Warning was designed not to warn Pearl Harbor but to draw
attention away from Pearl Harbor,even though US learned on Nov.25 that the
Pearl Harbor was the target.

The message sent to Kimmel started thus

"This dispatch is to be considered a war warning. Negotiations with Japan
looking
toward stabilization of conditions in the Pacific have ceased and an
aggressive
move by Japan is expected within the next few days"

This cannot be construed as anything but an alert against
possible attack. The fact that it named other locations
as 'likely' targets hardly ruled out Hawaii.


That was the reason why Naval Court of Inqury exonarated Kimmel.


It didnt, rather it found that his failings were not sufficient basis for
a court martial on the grounds of dereliction of duty. In practical terms
the Naval court blamed the army.

The naval command staff were less charitable. As Admiral King
put it

" The derelictions on the part of Admiral Stark and Admiral Kimmel were
faults of omission rather than faults of commission. In the case in
question they indicate lack of the superior judgment necessary for
exercising command commensurate with their rank and their assigned
duties, rather than culpable inefficiency.

Since trial by general court martial is not warranted by the
evidence adduced, appropriate administrative action would appear to be
the relegation of both of these officers to positions in which lack of
superior judgment may not result in future errors."

In short he was fired, hardly an exoneration !

Note further that the court stated clearly that there was
NO information suggesting an attack on Hawaii

Quote
Based on Finding XII, the Court is of the opinion that, as no
information of any sort was at any time either forwarded or received
from any source which would indicate that Japanese carriers or other
Japanese ships were on their way to Hawaii during November or December,
1941, the attack of 7 December at Pearl Harbor, delivered under the
circumstances then existing, was unpreventable and that when it would
take place was unpredictable.
/Quote


Keith

As usual most of my words have been deleted.

For what it is worth Washington, the GY-1 code breaking section,
was not working on JN-25B in real time in 1940/41, intercepts would
be forwarded by mail from the Pacific. There were also not enough
staff in late 1941 (22 men including 10 enlisted men) to do a proper
7 x 24 arrangement. The unit was doing the real time "Purple"
Japanese diplomatic code breaking on odd numbered days, the
army did even numbered days. The unit was also doing real time
work on the Kriegsmarine given the USN participation in the battle
of the Atlantic.

The IJN task force sent to Pearl Harbor did not transmit any radio
messages on its voyage to Hawaii. So say the surviving logs, the IJN
1942 after action report and the key people in the post war interviews.
Attempts to claim otherwise so far have used messages sent to the
task force, messages sent before they left Japan and the dummy
traffic known to have been sent.

The final pre war USN plans had between 2 and 3 battleships per
aircraft carrier as the right fleet mix. The change in priority can
be seen by the way the USS Kentucky (an Iowa class) was broken
up on the slip in 1942 to allow an Essex class carrier (Lake
Champlain) to be built instead, Kentucky was laid down for a second
time in December 1944.

The USS Enterprise was due back from Wake on the evening of 6
December but rough weather caused a delay, the new time was
7.30 am 7 December, they wanted their Sunday in port, but the
weather was against them. In order for the conspiracy to keep Enterprise
out of Pearl Harbor the conspirators needed to have a better long
range weather forecast than can currently be done. USS Lexington
was near Midway and was very exposed should the IJN make a direct
course back to Japan. In order for the conspiracy to keep Enterprise
out of Pearl Harbor the conspirators needed to have a better long
range weather forecast than can currently be done. Washington
ordered the two ferry missions, exact timings up to Hawaii.

The famed order to sail message was never sent by radio, so says all
the IJN evidence. Stinnett in his attempt to claim otherwise uses two
US sources, one of which simply references the other, so one source,
which is the USSBS post war interviews with IJN personnel. This is
the fun thing with Stinnett, his footnotes rarely support the claims in the
text they are supposed to support.

In 1945 and 1946 the USN, as an exercise, using the intelligence system
built up over the war went back to the 1941 messages to see what could
have been learnt, the answer is there was no smoking gun message, the
US would have needed to put together a large number of inferences to
come up with the right answer.

Oh yes, anybody who says the message said "Pearl Harbor" should
note it had a geographic designator, AK, in JN-25, just like AF = Midway,
and the US was still cracking those designators in 1942, see the famed
fresh water message sent by Midway.

Denyav wrote in message ...
Churchill, all the decoded messages placed in the public arena.
Stimson, the Japanese must fire first. Dulles a claimed quote,
Hoover no quote at all presente

Churchill:"..from the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the vital Japanase
ciphers and were decoding large numbers of their Military and diplomatic
telegrams"

So of all the names mentioned we receive 1 quote.

yes folks, when trapped Denyav will simply retreat, failing to mention
the rest of Churchill's words,

The quote is above is on page 532 of the edition I have access to,
on page 535 comes the quote,

"A prodigious Congressional Inquiry published its findings in
1946 in which every detail was exposed of the events leading
up to the war between the United States and Japan and of
the failure to send positive "alert" orders through the military
departments to their fleets and garrisons in exposed situations.
Every detail, including the decoding of secret Japanese
telegrams and their actual texts, has been displayed to the
world in forty volumes. The strength of the United States was
sufficient to enable them to sustain this hard ordeal required
by the spirit of the American Constitution."

Simple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.

And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it.


FDR:"The war starts tomorrow" Dec.6,1941

So please give us the verified source of this wonder quote and
note "the war" does not equal "the war with the US".

As I said before being a custodian of conspiracies is a tough job nowadays.

Someone has to do it of course, Denyav is applying for the job
and wondering why his tourist trip of various conspiracy web
sites does not seem to work as a good recommendation.

See any Pearl Harbor conspiracies there?

Yeah right,nobody sees anything.

Denyav basically has to wear a blindfold to avoid seeing the truth.

Translation if a person in public life tells a lie about being given
a speeding ticket, they must be clearly responsible for mass murder.

Translation if a public person or official tells a capital lie about Pearl
Harbor,there is no reason to believe that they are telling truth about other
similar incidents,for example 9/11.

Yes folks, apparently FDR, Stimson, Marshall, etc, were running
the USA in 1941 and 2001. Simple really.

Denyav is having trouble coping with the idea the work on the A code
stopped after it went out of service while work picked up on the B code.

Congrulations you have finally accepted that recovery work did not stop in
March or April 1941 but actually accelerated.

Yes folks, Denyav has to put words into other people's mouths
in order to lie his way out of another mess. As usual no proof of
what I said has been presented.

1) It was not Safford.
2) It appears the quote is about a specific case in 1943.

It was Safford it refers to whole JN25B decoding process.

Ah I like this, Denyav lifted the quote, which he keeps deleting,
from a conspiracy web site. The trouble is the document was
written in 1944 or later and Safford was put out of code breaking
in 1942, and the quote itself appears to be the usual conspiracy
quote idea, take an example about a specific case and pretend
it applies generally, or claim that is what the document supports.
The document itself does not give an author.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/...ea/Biblio.html

History of OP-20-GYP-1 (Cryptanalysis-Pacific). This history was
written after the war, probably by Stuart McClintock. It concerns the
activities of the Pacific cryptanalysis unit in Washington. It contains
information concerning the steps leading to success against the
Jap Navy General-Purpose Code, JN 25. history Collection IV
W I.5.12 and 5.13. This history is classified TS.

Yes folks, Denyav needs a fact so he creates one, the number
of groups recovered was around 3,800 to 1 December 1941.

Just add up your own monthly recovery numbers after April 41
without trying to hide the numbers behind some definition walls,
you will find a totally different number,and this number will be
very close to 10000.

Yes folks, Denyav will keep ignoring the facts, here are the totals
I keep presenting.

If you would like to know the exact code groups recovered it was
"Unfinished or Continuous" [i.e., a running tally]
April 1, 1941: "approximately 300 values recovered"
May 1, 1941: "approximately 400 values recovered"
June 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
July 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
August 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Sept 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Oct 1, 1941: "approximately 2400 values recovered"

"Completed during October 1941"
Nov 1, 1941: "600 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,000 values as of
this date]

"Completed during November 1941"
Dec 1, 1941: "800 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,800 values as of
this date]

"Unfinished or continuous"
Jan 1, 1942: "Approximately 6,180 values recovered"

Remembering some previously assigned values could be changed
by later discoveries.

So by the end of December 1941 the allied thought they had around 7%
of the code book recovered.


Denyav is of course, simply adding the numbers together, rather
than admitting they are the cumulative totals known at the end of
the relevant month.

Yes folks Denyav now needs to invent a whole new history. Apparently
the fact the contribution allied intercepts and code breaking made has
been known for decades has to be rewritten.

You are excellent in contradicting yourself.

Denyav is so funny.

How the Allies that,according to your own statements,were so incapable of
reading JN25B messages prior to Pearl Harbor,became so sophisticated
and efficient code breakers right after Pearl Harbor.

Yes folks, Denyav tries to announce that the code was compromised
in 2 months in December 1940 and January 1941, but now has to
turn around and say the allies, with more resources, starting from a
much higher level of knowledge, could not compromise the code in
6 months. You see for Denyav to be right the allies went backwards
in 1942 when it came to reading JN-25. Simple really, just invent facts
and delete the problems.

Deleted text,

"So tell us all please what A code values did the US recover in say
the second half of 1941?

How did this miracle happen,with the help of Mr.Willshaws outer space aliens
maybe?

Yes folks, Denyav tells us the allies could break the code in the first
2 months of its introduction but then tells us they could not break it
a year after its introduction, even though the allies then started with
7% of the code book and knew about things like the double meanings
and auxiliary tables.

Then we are apparently supposed to ignore the major increases in
manpower devoted to cracking the code. Hawaii was brought in,
and the Australians. Furthermore after discovering the lack of
trustable Japanese speakers in the US the USN had started language
classes and in late 1941 and early 1942 were receiving the first
graduates.

Simply in the first half of 1942 the allies had 5 to 10 times the
resources devoted to cracking JN-25 than a year previously.

The Washington code unit,

In the first quarter of 1941 GY-1 is 10 personnel, 7 officers and 3
enlisted men.
In the second quarter of 1941 GY-1 is 16 personnel, 9 officers, 5 enlisted
men and 2 civilian men.
In the third quarter of 1941 GY-1 is 20 personnel, 8 officers, 10 enlisted
men and 2 civilian men.
In the final quarter of 1941 GY-1 is 22 personnel, 9 officers, 10 enlisted
men and 3 civilian men.
In the first quarter of 1942 GY-1 is 41 personnel, 9 officers, 30 enlisted
men, 1 civilian man and 1 civilian woman.
In the second quarter of 1942 GY-1 is 98 personnel, 12 officers, 70
Enlisted men, 1 civilian man and 15 civilian woman.
In the third quarter of 1942 GY-1 is 207 personnel, 17 officers, 125
Enlisted men, 15 civilian man and 50 civilian woman.

Note the difference in available personnel and note there was less
Japanese diplomatic traffic to handle in 1942, which was a major
drain in 1941.

The ability of the USN to read the IJN codes gave them the best
chance yet to ambush the IJN.

Heck,wasn't it the SAME USN that was unable to read any JN25B
messages only a few months ago?
I guess USN recruited outer space aliens as code breakers right after Pearl
Harbor

Yes folks, Denyav is going to tell us all how the code was simple,
even obsolete and cracked in the 2 months he wants it cracked in
but then announces it could not be cracked in 1942 with far more
knowledge and resources.

Yes folks Denyav does not have a clue, and needs to debate himself
to avoid the facts. Reality says the allies knew how JN-25B worked
in December 1941 but lacked enough code group meanings to

deleted text,

"the messages. That changed in 1942 when the allies threw more
resources at the problem, using the techniques developed in 1941
to crack the code.

"Secondly ignoring the fact the "5" version of the code stopped being
used in January 1941 and the USN stopped working on the A version
in around March 1941, since the IJN decided to stop using the A code
in December 1940. Just try and pretend I am running some sort of
line the USN stopped work at that time. Above all do not even begin
to understand that Washington was weeks behind current intercepts
because they were mailed in from the Pacific.

Thirdly changing the subject. Move away from the fact that if the
failure to change additive books compromised the B code it
must have compromised the A code, since the US had only 5%
of the A code book when work ended on it around March 1941."

Nice use of detractors,Allies knew how JN25B worked already in
December 1940,not in December 1941.

Yes folks, apparently the allies knew within a few days of the first
messages the double meanings, the auxiliary tables and so on,
but of course, according to Denyav, these could not be found in
1942 with many times the resources and 3 times the amount of
available time.

There is one full year difference and Allies did go to hibernating in December
1940.

Yes folks, JN-25 is a code that can only be broken when Denyav
wants it broken. Then it is put back to uncracked when Denyav
wants it the other way.

to figure out Midway and Coral Sea? Or that the all knowing intelligence
system missed the IJN battleships coming out at Midway and the way
the IJN carriers came [into the Coral Sea behind the US carriers.]

Wasn't Midway a victory of superior intelligence gathering?

Yes folks, just ignore the reality the allied intelligence was not
perfect, but try and pretend it was 6 months earlier.


I will leave off the majority of my previous post this time, Denyav's
deleting of it is clear proof of inability to answer it. I must admit the
claim the New York Times published on 8 December 1941 that the
Pearl Harbor raid was no surprise but it seems no one noticed, at
the time, during the war or after the war is very funny.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.