For Keith Willshaw...

Churchill, all the decoded messages placed in the public arena.
Stimson, the Japanese must fire first. Dulles a claimed quote,
Hoover no quote at all presente


Churchill:"..from the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the vital Japanase
ciphers and were decoding large numbers of their Military and diplomatic
telegrams"

FDR:"The war starts tomorrow"
Dec.6,1941

As I said before being a custodian of conspiracies is a tough job nowadays.
See any Pearl Harbor conspiracies there?

Yeah right,nobody sees anything.
Translation if a person in public life tells a lie about being given
a speeding ticket, they must be clearly responsible for mass murder.

Translation if a public person or official tells a capital lie about Pearl
Harbor,there is no reason to believe that they are telling truth about other
similar incidents,for example 9/11.

Denyav is having trouble coping with the idea the work on the A code
stopped after it went out of service while work picked up on the B code.

Congrulations you have finally accepted that recovery work did not stop in
March or April 1941 but actually accelerated.

1) It was not Safford.
2) It appears the quote is about a specific case in 1943.


It was Safford it refers to whole JN25B decoding process.Yes folks, Denyav
needs a fact so he creates one, the number of groups

recovered was around 3,800 to 1 December 1941.


Just add up your own monthly recovery numbers after April 41 without trying to
hide the numbers behind some definition walls,you will find a totally different
number,and this number will be very close to 10000.

Yes folks Denyav now needs to invent a whole new history. Apparently
the fact the contribution allied intercepts and code breaking made has
been known for decades has to be rewritten.


You are excellent in contradicting yourself.
How the Allies that,according to your own statements,were so incapable of
reading JN25B messages prior to Pearl Harbor,became so sophisticated and
efficient code breakers right after Pearl Harbor.
How did this miracle happen,with the help of Mr.Willshaws outer space aliens
maybe?

The ability of the USN to read the IJN codes gave them the best
chance yet to ambush the IJN.

Heck,wasn't it the SAME USN that was unable to read any JN25B messages only a
few months ago?
I guess USN recruited outer space aliens as code breakers right after Pearl
Harbor

Yes folks Denyav does not have a clue, and needs to debate himself
to avoid the facts. Reality says the allies knew how JN-25B worked
in December 1941 but lacked enough code group meanings to

Nice use of detractors,Allies knew how JN25B worked already in December
1940,not in December 1941.
There is one full year difference and Allies did go to hibernating in December
1940.
to figure out Midway and Coral Sea? Or that the all knowing intelligence
system missed the IJN battleships coming out at Midway and the way
the IJN carriers came [into the Coral Sea behind the US carriers.]

Wasn't Midway a victory of superior intelligence gathering?

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Churchill, all the decoded messages placed in the public arena.
Stimson, the Japanese must fire first. Dulles a claimed quote,
Hoover no quote at all presente


Churchill:"..from the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the vital
Japanase
ciphers and were decoding large numbers of their Military and diplomatic
telegrams"


Indeed they had penetrated Purple , the diplomatic cipher
and a number of other codes, but not JN-25

FDR:"The war starts tomorrow"
Dec.6,1941


Quite so , an attack of the Phillipines and Malaya
was expected and all Pacific commands had been
issued a war warning.

Keith

Indeed they had penetrated Purple , the diplomatic cipher
and a number of other codes, but not JN-25

But Mr.Churchill clearly stated "..military and diplomatic.." which includes
JN25 too.


Quite so , an attack of the Phillipines and Malaya
was expected and all Pacific commands had been
issued a war warning.

So called War Warning was designed not to warn Pearl Harbor but to draw
attention away from Pearl Harbor,even though US learned on Nov.25 that the
Pearl Harbor was the target.
That was the reason why Naval Court of Inqury exonarated Kimmel.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Indeed they had penetrated Purple , the diplomatic cipher
and a number of other codes, but not JN-25

But Mr.Churchill clearly stated "..military and diplomatic.." which
includes
JN25 too.


He didnt say 'ALL military' so it clearly does not


Quite so , an attack of the Phillipines and Malaya
was expected and all Pacific commands had been
issued a war warning.

So called War Warning was designed not to warn Pearl Harbor but to draw
attention away from Pearl Harbor,even though US learned on Nov.25 that the
Pearl Harbor was the target.

The message sent to Kimmel started thus

"This dispatch is to be considered a war warning. Negotiations with Japan
looking
toward stabilization of conditions in the Pacific have ceased and an
aggressive
move by Japan is expected within the next few days"

This cannot be construed as anything but an alert against
possible attack. The fact that it named other locations
as 'likely' targets hardly ruled out Hawaii.


That was the reason why Naval Court of Inqury exonarated Kimmel.


It didnt, rather it found that his failings were not sufficient basis for
a court martial on the grounds of dereliction of duty. In practical terms
the Naval court blamed the army.

The naval command staff were less charitable. As Admiral King
put it

" The derelictions on the part of Admiral Stark and Admiral Kimmel were
faults of omission rather than faults of commission. In the case in
question they indicate lack of the superior judgment necessary for
exercising command commensurate with their rank and their assigned
duties, rather than culpable inefficiency.

Since trial by general court martial is not warranted by the
evidence adduced, appropriate administrative action would appear to be
the relegation of both of these officers to positions in which lack of
superior judgment may not result in future errors."

In short he was fired, hardly an exoneration !

Note further that the court stated clearly that there was
NO information suggesting an attack on Hawaii

Quote
Based on Finding XII, the Court is of the opinion that, as no
information of any sort was at any time either forwarded or received
from any source which would indicate that Japanese carriers or other
Japanese ships were on their way to Hawaii during November or December,
1941, the attack of 7 December at Pearl Harbor, delivered under the
circumstances then existing, was unpreventable and that when it would
take place was unpredictable.
/Quote


Keith

But Mr.Churchill clearly stated "..military and diplomatic.." which
includes
JN25 too.


He didnt say 'ALL military' so it clearly does not

BOTH,military and diplomatic.period.

This cannot be construed as anything but an alert against
possible attack. The fact that it named other locations
as 'likely' targets hardly ruled out Hawaii.

What HM gov't would do if they received a specific terror warning for London?
1)Issue a terror alert for London
2)Issue terror alerts for Montevideo,Montreal,Athens and Cairo,but not for
London.

Which one would be the correct response?


In short he was fired, hardly an exoneration !


You forgat to mention that Naval court of inquiry decision EXONORATED Kimmel
but courts decision was OVERTURNED by Forrestal and King.

In other word overturning courts decision was a political move to save their
own asses.Note further that the court stated clearly that there was

NO information suggesting an attack on Hawaii

Court based its decision mainly on so called War Warning message and considered
it as an attempt to divert attention away from PH than warn PH.

to Hawaii during November or December,
1941, the attack of 7 December at Pearl Harbor, delivered under the
circumstances then existing, was unpreventable and that when it would

None of Crane documents were available to court or Kimmel at that time.
Even members Congress conducting a mini probe on Pearl Harbor in 1995 were
denied access to the files.
In other words Congress members were allowed to investigate Pearl Harbor
incident on behalf American Public but even they were not allowed to see Pearl
Harbor documents.
Under these circumstances Naval Courts decision to exonorate Kimmel based on
correct interpretation of so called War Warning becomes even more important.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
But Mr.Churchill clearly stated "..military and diplomatic.." which
includes
JN25 too.


He didnt say 'ALL military' so it clearly does not

BOTH,military and diplomatic.period.


I both watched TV and listened to radio today.
This does not mean I watched all 200 TV channels
and listened to the 30 or so radio channels
available to me.

This cannot be construed as anything but an alert against
possible attack. The fact that it named other locations
as 'likely' targets hardly ruled out Hawaii.

What HM gov't would do if they received a specific terror warning for
London?
1)Issue a terror alert for London
2)Issue terror alerts for Montevideo,Montreal,Athens and Cairo,but not for
London.

Which one would be the correct response?


None of the above, they would issue the orders
necessary to counter the threat, as has been done many times


In short he was fired, hardly an exoneration !


You forgat to mention that Naval court of inquiry decision EXONORATED
Kimmel
but courts decision was OVERTURNED by Forrestal and King.


Nope, the court didnt exonerate him, they excused
his errors and blamed the army.

In other word overturning courts decision was a political move to save
their
own asses.Note further that the court stated clearly that there was

NO information suggesting an attack on Hawaii

Court based its decision mainly on so called War Warning message and
considered
it as an attempt to divert attention away from PH than warn PH.


A view that was overturned by every subsequent inquiry and
was self serving, their major interest was proving that it
wasnt the fault of the USN.

to Hawaii during November or December,
1941, the attack of 7 December at Pearl Harbor, delivered under the
circumstances then existing, was unpreventable and that when it would

None of Crane documents were available to court or Kimmel at that time.

Irrelevant

Even members Congress conducting a mini probe on Pearl Harbor in 1995 were
denied access to the files.

Not really, they reported that the BRITISH Government was unwilling to
declassify
material relevant to the Pearl Harbor intelligence issue because it was
subject to the
UK-USA Intelligence Agreement, they made no complaint about US files
being withheld

In other words Congress members were allowed to investigate Pearl Harbor
incident on behalf American Public but even they were not allowed to see
Pearl
Harbor documents.

See above

Note the so called 1995 probe was in fact an attempt to reinstate the
reputations
of Kimmel and Short at the urging of their families and was far from being
an full or impartial inquiry

http://users.erols.com/nbeach/kimmel.html

Under these circumstances Naval Courts decision to exonorate Kimmel based
on
correct interpretation of so called War Warning becomes even more
important.

Trouble is the 12 subsequent inquiries, including the extremely through
1946 congressional investigation ALL overthrew that result.

Kimmel just made too many mistakes.

Keith

What HM gov't would do if they received a specific terror warning for
London?
1)Issue a terror alert for London
2)Issue terror alerts for Montevideo,Montreal,Athens and Cairo,but not for
London.

Which one would be the correct response?


None of the above, they would issue the orders
necessary to counter the threat, as has been done many times

Nice way of dodging some questions.

A view that was overturned by every subsequent inquiry and
was self serving, their major interest was proving that it
wasnt the fault of the USN.


Only twice Kimmel and/or his kin were given opportunity to present their their
case and evidences,in Naval court of Inquiry and in 90s during Congressional
mini probe,and both panels,what a surprise,concluded that Kimmel should be
exonarated.


Irrelevant

This word seems to be the most frequenly used word by the custodians of Pearl
Harbor conspiracy when they face hard evidence.

BRITISH Government was unwilling to
declassify
material relevant to the Pearl Harbor intelligence issue because it was
subject to the
UK-USA Intelligence Agreement, they made no complaint about US files
being withheld

I was referring to Crane files not British files.Sen.Thurman and Rep.Sprnce
were denied access to these files in 90s.
In other words Mr.Willshaw,representatives of American people investigating
Pearl Harbor incident were denied access to almost 60 year old files.

Trouble is the 12 subsequent inquiries, including the extremely through
1946 congressional investigation ALL overthrew that result.

Kimmel just made too many mistakes.

Actualy Army Board of investigation report was much more damaging for
FDR-Stimson-Marshall trio than Navy version.
Marshall offered his resignation after Army report.

Arndt started this thread and made a capital mistake by implying that UK has
become a banana republic of US.
US was a banana republic for UK in 1941 also US was a UKs banana republic in
2001.

Lord Rhodas' ideas sometimes realized by using Rhodas scholars. sometimes by
using shock and awe methods.

Heck,everbody is trying to find a Straussian (Neocon),Jewish,Israeli or
Southern Baptist connection in 21st century version of PH,but nobody is
looking for an Anglo connection.

As I said before,I admire British great gaming skills.

As usual most of my words have been deleted.

For what it is worth Washington, the GY-1 code breaking section,
was not working on JN-25B in real time in 1940/41, intercepts would
be forwarded by mail from the Pacific. There were also not enough
staff in late 1941 (22 men including 10 enlisted men) to do a proper
7 x 24 arrangement. The unit was doing the real time "Purple"
Japanese diplomatic code breaking on odd numbered days, the
army did even numbered days. The unit was also doing real time
work on the Kriegsmarine given the USN participation in the battle
of the Atlantic.

The IJN task force sent to Pearl Harbor did not transmit any radio
messages on its voyage to Hawaii. So say the surviving logs, the IJN
1942 after action report and the key people in the post war interviews.
Attempts to claim otherwise so far have used messages sent to the
task force, messages sent before they left Japan and the dummy
traffic known to have been sent.

The final pre war USN plans had between 2 and 3 battleships per
aircraft carrier as the right fleet mix. The change in priority can
be seen by the way the USS Kentucky (an Iowa class) was broken
up on the slip in 1942 to allow an Essex class carrier (Lake
Champlain) to be built instead, Kentucky was laid down for a second
time in December 1944.

The USS Enterprise was due back from Wake on the evening of 6
December but rough weather caused a delay, the new time was
7.30 am 7 December, they wanted their Sunday in port, but the
weather was against them. In order for the conspiracy to keep Enterprise
out of Pearl Harbor the conspirators needed to have a better long
range weather forecast than can currently be done. USS Lexington
was near Midway and was very exposed should the IJN make a direct
course back to Japan. In order for the conspiracy to keep Enterprise
out of Pearl Harbor the conspirators needed to have a better long
range weather forecast than can currently be done. Washington
ordered the two ferry missions, exact timings up to Hawaii.

The famed order to sail message was never sent by radio, so says all
the IJN evidence. Stinnett in his attempt to claim otherwise uses two
US sources, one of which simply references the other, so one source,
which is the USSBS post war interviews with IJN personnel. This is
the fun thing with Stinnett, his footnotes rarely support the claims in the
text they are supposed to support.

In 1945 and 1946 the USN, as an exercise, using the intelligence system
built up over the war went back to the 1941 messages to see what could
have been learnt, the answer is there was no smoking gun message, the
US would have needed to put together a large number of inferences to
come up with the right answer.

Oh yes, anybody who says the message said "Pearl Harbor" should
note it had a geographic designator, AK, in JN-25, just like AF = Midway,
and the US was still cracking those designators in 1942, see the famed
fresh water message sent by Midway.

Denyav wrote in message ...
Churchill, all the decoded messages placed in the public arena.
Stimson, the Japanese must fire first. Dulles a claimed quote,
Hoover no quote at all presente

Churchill:"..from the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the vital Japanase
ciphers and were decoding large numbers of their Military and diplomatic
telegrams"

So of all the names mentioned we receive 1 quote.

yes folks, when trapped Denyav will simply retreat, failing to mention
the rest of Churchill's words,

The quote is above is on page 532 of the edition I have access to,
on page 535 comes the quote,

"A prodigious Congressional Inquiry published its findings in
1946 in which every detail was exposed of the events leading
up to the war between the United States and Japan and of
the failure to send positive "alert" orders through the military
departments to their fleets and garrisons in exposed situations.
Every detail, including the decoding of secret Japanese
telegrams and their actual texts, has been displayed to the
world in forty volumes. The strength of the United States was
sufficient to enable them to sustain this hard ordeal required
by the spirit of the American Constitution."

Simple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.

And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it.


FDR:"The war starts tomorrow" Dec.6,1941

So please give us the verified source of this wonder quote and
note "the war" does not equal "the war with the US".

As I said before being a custodian of conspiracies is a tough job nowadays.

Someone has to do it of course, Denyav is applying for the job
and wondering why his tourist trip of various conspiracy web
sites does not seem to work as a good recommendation.

See any Pearl Harbor conspiracies there?

Yeah right,nobody sees anything.

Denyav basically has to wear a blindfold to avoid seeing the truth.

Translation if a person in public life tells a lie about being given
a speeding ticket, they must be clearly responsible for mass murder.

Translation if a public person or official tells a capital lie about Pearl
Harbor,there is no reason to believe that they are telling truth about other
similar incidents,for example 9/11.

Yes folks, apparently FDR, Stimson, Marshall, etc, were running
the USA in 1941 and 2001. Simple really.

Denyav is having trouble coping with the idea the work on the A code
stopped after it went out of service while work picked up on the B code.

Congrulations you have finally accepted that recovery work did not stop in
March or April 1941 but actually accelerated.

Yes folks, Denyav has to put words into other people's mouths
in order to lie his way out of another mess. As usual no proof of
what I said has been presented.

1) It was not Safford.
2) It appears the quote is about a specific case in 1943.

It was Safford it refers to whole JN25B decoding process.

Ah I like this, Denyav lifted the quote, which he keeps deleting,
from a conspiracy web site. The trouble is the document was
written in 1944 or later and Safford was put out of code breaking
in 1942, and the quote itself appears to be the usual conspiracy
quote idea, take an example about a specific case and pretend
it applies generally, or claim that is what the document supports.
The document itself does not give an author.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/...ea/Biblio.html

History of OP-20-GYP-1 (Cryptanalysis-Pacific). This history was
written after the war, probably by Stuart McClintock. It concerns the
activities of the Pacific cryptanalysis unit in Washington. It contains
information concerning the steps leading to success against the
Jap Navy General-Purpose Code, JN 25. history Collection IV
W I.5.12 and 5.13. This history is classified TS.

Yes folks, Denyav needs a fact so he creates one, the number
of groups recovered was around 3,800 to 1 December 1941.

Just add up your own monthly recovery numbers after April 41
without trying to hide the numbers behind some definition walls,
you will find a totally different number,and this number will be
very close to 10000.

Yes folks, Denyav will keep ignoring the facts, here are the totals
I keep presenting.

If you would like to know the exact code groups recovered it was
"Unfinished or Continuous" [i.e., a running tally]
April 1, 1941: "approximately 300 values recovered"
May 1, 1941: "approximately 400 values recovered"
June 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
July 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
August 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Sept 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Oct 1, 1941: "approximately 2400 values recovered"

"Completed during October 1941"
Nov 1, 1941: "600 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,000 values as of
this date]

"Completed during November 1941"
Dec 1, 1941: "800 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,800 values as of
this date]

"Unfinished or continuous"
Jan 1, 1942: "Approximately 6,180 values recovered"

Remembering some previously assigned values could be changed
by later discoveries.

So by the end of December 1941 the allied thought they had around 7%
of the code book recovered.


Denyav is of course, simply adding the numbers together, rather
than admitting they are the cumulative totals known at the end of
the relevant month.

Yes folks Denyav now needs to invent a whole new history. Apparently
the fact the contribution allied intercepts and code breaking made has
been known for decades has to be rewritten.

You are excellent in contradicting yourself.

Denyav is so funny.

How the Allies that,according to your own statements,were so incapable of
reading JN25B messages prior to Pearl Harbor,became so sophisticated
and efficient code breakers right after Pearl Harbor.

Yes folks, Denyav tries to announce that the code was compromised
in 2 months in December 1940 and January 1941, but now has to
turn around and say the allies, with more resources, starting from a
much higher level of knowledge, could not compromise the code in
6 months. You see for Denyav to be right the allies went backwards
in 1942 when it came to reading JN-25. Simple really, just invent facts
and delete the problems.

Deleted text,

"So tell us all please what A code values did the US recover in say
the second half of 1941?

How did this miracle happen,with the help of Mr.Willshaws outer space aliens
maybe?

Yes folks, Denyav tells us the allies could break the code in the first
2 months of its introduction but then tells us they could not break it
a year after its introduction, even though the allies then started with
7% of the code book and knew about things like the double meanings
and auxiliary tables.

Then we are apparently supposed to ignore the major increases in
manpower devoted to cracking the code. Hawaii was brought in,
and the Australians. Furthermore after discovering the lack of
trustable Japanese speakers in the US the USN had started language
classes and in late 1941 and early 1942 were receiving the first
graduates.

Simply in the first half of 1942 the allies had 5 to 10 times the
resources devoted to cracking JN-25 than a year previously.

The Washington code unit,

In the first quarter of 1941 GY-1 is 10 personnel, 7 officers and 3
enlisted men.
In the second quarter of 1941 GY-1 is 16 personnel, 9 officers, 5 enlisted
men and 2 civilian men.
In the third quarter of 1941 GY-1 is 20 personnel, 8 officers, 10 enlisted
men and 2 civilian men.
In the final quarter of 1941 GY-1 is 22 personnel, 9 officers, 10 enlisted
men and 3 civilian men.
In the first quarter of 1942 GY-1 is 41 personnel, 9 officers, 30 enlisted
men, 1 civilian man and 1 civilian woman.
In the second quarter of 1942 GY-1 is 98 personnel, 12 officers, 70
Enlisted men, 1 civilian man and 15 civilian woman.
In the third quarter of 1942 GY-1 is 207 personnel, 17 officers, 125
Enlisted men, 15 civilian man and 50 civilian woman.

Note the difference in available personnel and note there was less
Japanese diplomatic traffic to handle in 1942, which was a major
drain in 1941.

The ability of the USN to read the IJN codes gave them the best
chance yet to ambush the IJN.

Heck,wasn't it the SAME USN that was unable to read any JN25B
messages only a few months ago?
I guess USN recruited outer space aliens as code breakers right after Pearl
Harbor

Yes folks, Denyav is going to tell us all how the code was simple,
even obsolete and cracked in the 2 months he wants it cracked in
but then announces it could not be cracked in 1942 with far more
knowledge and resources.

Yes folks Denyav does not have a clue, and needs to debate himself
to avoid the facts. Reality says the allies knew how JN-25B worked
in December 1941 but lacked enough code group meanings to

deleted text,

"the messages. That changed in 1942 when the allies threw more
resources at the problem, using the techniques developed in 1941
to crack the code.

"Secondly ignoring the fact the "5" version of the code stopped being
used in January 1941 and the USN stopped working on the A version
in around March 1941, since the IJN decided to stop using the A code
in December 1940. Just try and pretend I am running some sort of
line the USN stopped work at that time. Above all do not even begin
to understand that Washington was weeks behind current intercepts
because they were mailed in from the Pacific.

Thirdly changing the subject. Move away from the fact that if the
failure to change additive books compromised the B code it
must have compromised the A code, since the US had only 5%
of the A code book when work ended on it around March 1941."

Nice use of detractors,Allies knew how JN25B worked already in
December 1940,not in December 1941.

Yes folks, apparently the allies knew within a few days of the first
messages the double meanings, the auxiliary tables and so on,
but of course, according to Denyav, these could not be found in
1942 with many times the resources and 3 times the amount of
available time.

There is one full year difference and Allies did go to hibernating in December
1940.

Yes folks, JN-25 is a code that can only be broken when Denyav
wants it broken. Then it is put back to uncracked when Denyav
wants it the other way.

to figure out Midway and Coral Sea? Or that the all knowing intelligence
system missed the IJN battleships coming out at Midway and the way
the IJN carriers came [into the Coral Sea behind the US carriers.]

Wasn't Midway a victory of superior intelligence gathering?

Yes folks, just ignore the reality the allied intelligence was not
perfect, but try and pretend it was 6 months earlier.


I will leave off the majority of my previous post this time, Denyav's
deleting of it is clear proof of inability to answer it. I must admit the
claim the New York Times published on 8 December 1941 that the
Pearl Harbor raid was no surprise but it seems no one noticed, at
the time, during the war or after the war is very funny.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.