Thinking about buying a DG400

If you like (and have time) to work on planes as well as fly them, you'll likely find the support you need online to keep it flying. I'm speaking from the PIK 20E community which is active in helping each other with the same issues you would face.

I think you will find that as DG actually built the 400 they
support it "free of charge" so there should be no DG "tax" to
pay? Could easily be wrong though, ask your local Agent. Even
if you do have to pay the "DG Tax" it's pittance compared to
the overall ownership costs.

My earlier post perhaps sort of implied total trouble free 400
ownership? But very few things did fail, the starter relay for
one. Naturally the U/C collapsed on landing once, but that's
normal, it's a special DG design feature. Generally I found the
DG400 experience much kinder on the wallet than owning a
DG808C.

The reason I suggested joining the "Solo" forum was to
illustrate that even the newer DG (and other) self launchers
have their problems; for a balanced picture join the ASH26E
group too. You'll soon see that there is no such thing as a
totally reliable pylon powered self launcher.

Dave Walsh

On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 6:30:11 AM UTC-7, Dave Walsh wrote:
I think you will find that as DG actually built the 400 they
support it "free of charge" so there should be no DG "tax" to
pay? Could easily be wrong though, ask your local Agent. Even
if you do have to pay the "DG Tax" it's pittance compared to
the overall ownership costs.

My earlier post perhaps sort of implied total trouble free 400
ownership? But very few things did fail, the starter relay for
one. Naturally the U/C collapsed on landing once, but that's
normal, it's a special DG design feature. Generally I found the
DG400 experience much kinder on the wallet than owning a
DG808C.

The reason I suggested joining the "Solo" forum was to
illustrate that even the newer DG (and other) self launchers
have their problems; for a balanced picture join the ASH26E
group too. You'll soon see that there is no such thing as a
totally reliable pylon powered self launcher.

Dave Walsh

Well, Dave, you need to think again. DG calls the tax a "service agreement", which costs 425 euro to setup and 245 euro per year to maintain (for the affected models):

https://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/en/mai...rvice-contract

Tom

On 27/05/2017 23:15, Dave Walsh wrote:
I think you will find that as DG actually built the 400 they
support it "free of charge" so there should be no DG "tax" to
pay? Could easily be wrong though, ask your local Agent. Even
if you do have to pay the "DG Tax" it's pittance compared to
the overall ownership costs.

Yes. You're wrong.

The 400 was built by Glaser-Dirks and you'll pay the tax. The DG-800A
and even my (early) 800B pays it. The cutoff date is around 1994-6 for DGs.


My earlier post perhaps sort of implied total trouble free 400
ownership? But very few things did fail, the starter relay for
one. Naturally the U/C collapsed on landing once, but that's
normal, it's a special DG design feature. Generally I found the
DG400 experience much kinder on the wallet than owning a
DG808C.

The reason I suggested joining the "Solo" forum was to
illustrate that even the newer DG (and other) self launchers
have their problems; for a balanced picture join the ASH26E
group too. You'll soon see that there is no such thing as a
totally reliable pylon powered self launcher.

Dave Walsh



--
GC

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 10:40:27 PM UTC-7, Bret Hess wrote:
If you like (and have time) to work on planes as well as fly them, you'll likely find the support you need online to keep it flying. I'm speaking from the PIK 20E community which is active in helping each other with the same issues you would face.

If I were buying a 400 again I would probably factor in the cost of an engine overhaul to zero time it. In the US this will probably cost $4,000, give or take; can't say what it would cost in Europe, but owners on the forum would know.

The annual maintain would probably be comparable to what it takes to keep the 808 flying. The maintenance itself is not complicated, but it does take some mechanical ability.

Tom

Thank you everyone for your help, I really appreciate it!

First of all, although I am a comerial pilot, my experience in pure sailplanes is very little (don´t reach 100h). Do you recommend me to wait to have more experience in pure sailplane before making the transition?

Second point, I´m not very handy, I don´t have any type of experience in mechanics so any problem the plane has I would have to go to a workshop. Is that a big inconvenience? This problem would happen to me with any type of glider that I buy. I must make my mind that if I buy a glider I will speed more mony than the average because I wouldn´t do anything.

Third and last point. I´ve also been thinking about buying a PIK20E. I´ve seen one with 1500H and 147 engine hours. It is cheapper than the DG400 but the drawback is that it has a 3000h limit which cannot be extended because the manufacturer no longer exist. This means that if i buy it, and in the future I want to change to a higher performance glider, it would be very difficult to sell it (or simply impossible as it get closer to the 3000h). Another negative is that if it need more maintenance that other plane it wouldn't be a good choice for me because as I've set before, I don't have any experience with mechanics.

Alfonso

On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:59:29 AM UTC-4, wrote:
First of all, although I am a comerial pilot, my experience in pure
sailplanes is very little (don´t reach 100h). Do you recommend me to
wait to have more experience in pure sailplane before making the transition?

YES.
To be able to safely focus on engine management (and especially when things
go wrong), flying the glider must be completely automatic. Regardless of
power experience, you are not at this point with less than 100 hours.

Second point, I´m not very handy, I don´t have any type of experience
in mechanics so any problem the plane has I would have to go to a workshop.
Is that a big inconvenience?

YES.
Identify someone nearby with extensive experience maintaining the type
you expect to buy. Hint: There isn't likely to be anybody...
And maintenance of these machines by folks not intimately familiar
with the type often goes very badly.

This problem would happen to me with any type of glider that I buy.

NO.
Any motor-glider will require MUCH more (and more specialized) maintenance
as compared to a non-motorized glider.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO" (multiple offender, 2000 hrs in motor-gliders)

On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:14:07 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:59:29 AM UTC-4, wrote:
First of all, although I am a comerial pilot, my experience in pure
sailplanes is very little (don´t reach 100h). Do you recommend me to
wait to have more experience in pure sailplane before making the transition?

YES.
To be able to safely focus on engine management (and especially when things
go wrong), flying the glider must be completely automatic. Regardless of
power experience, you are not at this point with less than 100 hours.

Second point, I´m not very handy, I don´t have any type of experience
in mechanics so any problem the plane has I would have to go to a workshop.
Is that a big inconvenience?

YES.
Identify someone nearby with extensive experience maintaining the type
you expect to buy. Hint: There isn't likely to be anybody...
And maintenance of these machines by folks not intimately familiar
with the type often goes very badly.

This problem would happen to me with any type of glider that I buy.

NO.
Any motor-glider will require MUCH more (and more specialized) maintenance
as compared to a non-motorized glider.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO" (multiple offender, 2000 hrs in motor-gliders)

I cannot agree that having only 100 hours disqualifies you from motorglider ownership. For the first 200 hours of flying it, simply be very conservative with motor use: do not self launch, do not attempt air starts at less than 3000 AGL and then over a landing field, etc. After all it will fly fine with the motor stowed - as good as a pure glider. You can push this envelope and squeeze these margins as you gain experience. If you are an undisciplined pilot that will take chances with the motor, then you are not a good candidate for motorglider ownership, regardless of hours. If fact you might want to reevaluate flying at all.

I do agree that the maintenance requirements for any motorglider are 3x any pure glider.

On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 11:47:36 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:14:07 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:59:29 AM UTC-4, wrote:
First of all, although I am a comerial pilot, my experience in pure
sailplanes is very little (don´t reach 100h). Do you recommend me to
wait to have more experience in pure sailplane before making the transition?

YES.
To be able to safely focus on engine management (and especially when things
go wrong), flying the glider must be completely automatic. Regardless of
power experience, you are not at this point with less than 100 hours.

Second point, I´m not very handy, I don´t have any type of experience
in mechanics so any problem the plane has I would have to go to a workshop.
Is that a big inconvenience?

YES.
Identify someone nearby with extensive experience maintaining the type
you expect to buy. Hint: There isn't likely to be anybody...
And maintenance of these machines by folks not intimately familiar
with the type often goes very badly.

This problem would happen to me with any type of glider that I buy.

NO.
Any motor-glider will require MUCH more (and more specialized) maintenance
as compared to a non-motorized glider.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO" (multiple offender, 2000 hrs in motor-gliders)

I cannot agree that having only 100 hours disqualifies you from motorglider ownership. For the first 200 hours of flying it, simply be very conservative with motor use: do not self launch, do not attempt air starts at less than 3000 AGL and then over a landing field, etc. After all it will fly fine with the motor stowed - as good as a pure glider. You can push this envelope and squeeze these margins as you gain experience. If you are an undisciplined pilot that will take chances with the motor, then you are not a good candidate for motorglider ownership, regardless of hours. If fact you might want to reevaluate flying at all.

I do agree that the maintenance requirements for any motorglider are 3x any pure glider.

There is a big difference between "disqualification" and "inadvisable." Flying high-performance sailplanes is a skill that takes hundreds of hours to become proficient. Self-launching motorgliders requires yet another set of skills. The test of the skills only comes when the pilot is under stress and the margin for error is all but gone. My advice stands: Alfonso should get himself a pure glider and build that critical first 300-500 hours in it before acquiring an MG. The only mitigating circumstance would be if he does not have tows available.

Tom

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 8:24:14 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 11:47:36 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:14:07 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 6:59:29 AM UTC-4, wrote:
First of all, although I am a comerial pilot, my experience in pure
sailplanes is very little (don´t reach 100h). Do you recommend me to
wait to have more experience in pure sailplane before making the transition?

YES.
To be able to safely focus on engine management (and especially when things
go wrong), flying the glider must be completely automatic. Regardless of
power experience, you are not at this point with less than 100 hours.

Second point, I´m not very handy, I don´t have any type of experience
in mechanics so any problem the plane has I would have to go to a workshop.
Is that a big inconvenience?

YES.
Identify someone nearby with extensive experience maintaining the type
you expect to buy. Hint: There isn't likely to be anybody...
And maintenance of these machines by folks not intimately familiar
with the type often goes very badly.

This problem would happen to me with any type of glider that I buy.

NO.
Any motor-glider will require MUCH more (and more specialized) maintenance
as compared to a non-motorized glider.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO" (multiple offender, 2000 hrs in motor-gliders)

I cannot agree that having only 100 hours disqualifies you from motorglider ownership. For the first 200 hours of flying it, simply be very conservative with motor use: do not self launch, do not attempt air starts at less than 3000 AGL and then over a landing field, etc. After all it will fly fine with the motor stowed - as good as a pure glider. You can push this envelope and squeeze these margins as you gain experience. If you are an undisciplined pilot that will take chances with the motor, then you are not a good candidate for motorglider ownership, regardless of hours. If fact you might want to reevaluate flying at all.

I do agree that the maintenance requirements for any motorglider are 3x any pure glider.

There is a big difference between "disqualification" and "inadvisable." Flying high-performance sailplanes is a skill that takes hundreds of hours to become proficient. Self-launching motorgliders requires yet another set of skills. The test of the skills only comes when the pilot is under stress and the margin for error is all but gone. My advice stands: Alfonso should get himself a pure glider and build that critical first 300-500 hours in it before acquiring an MG. The only mitigating circumstance would be if he does not have tows available.

Tom

The test of skills for the motor only comes when you use the motor. That is my point. An auxilliary motorglider with the motor folded is a pure glider. This may require discipline that the pilot may not have - that is my other point.