A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Letter to the FAA



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old June 27th 17, 12:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 478
Default Letter to the FAA

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 6:00:05 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 21:19 25 June 2017, wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 2:30:04 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone

wrote:
At 03:44 25 June 2017,
wrote:
The death toll doesn't match your hyperbole=20

How many pilots have to die before you act, give me a number.


Couple of posts back I suggested several acts that are more

productive
than=
squealing to the teacher. You want a number, I'll give you an

equation:
W=
hen the yearly towpilot death toll =3D the yearly glider pilot death

toll.
=
Glider pilot lives matter too. Simple solution is to write letters
demand=
ing the FAA ban gliding. All those glider pilot's lives and by default
tow=
pilot's lives saved. Brilliant.

That is called deflection, not an answer. How many deaths do you think
are acceptable? How many tow pilots have to die before YOU take
action? Just answer the question, it is very simple.

And the premise that if we fix this one thing at any cost then flying will be safe is ludicrous. As is the premise that Schweizer hooks are a killing machine. The current rate is acceptable. If you aren't OK with a mechanical device failing and killing a pilot once every twenty years you shouldn't be flying in general aviation aircraft.
  #2  
Old June 27th 17, 02:40 PM
Walt Connelly Walt Connelly is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by AviationBanter: Aug 2010
Posts: 365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by View Post
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 6:00:05 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 21:19 25 June 2017, wrote:
On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 2:30:04 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone

wrote:
At 03:44 25 June 2017,
wrote:
The death toll doesn't match your hyperbole=20

How many pilots have to die before you act, give me a number.


Couple of posts back I suggested several acts that are more

productive
than=
squealing to the teacher. You want a number, I'll give you an

equation:
W=
hen the yearly towpilot death toll =3D the yearly glider pilot death

toll.
=
Glider pilot lives matter too. Simple solution is to write letters
demand=
ing the FAA ban gliding. All those glider pilot's lives and by default
tow=
pilot's lives saved. Brilliant.

That is called deflection, not an answer. How many deaths do you think
are acceptable? How many tow pilots have to die before YOU take
action? Just answer the question, it is very simple.

And the premise that if we fix this one thing at any cost then flying will be safe is ludicrous. As is the premise that Schweizer hooks are a killing machine. The current rate is acceptable. If you aren't OK with a mechanical device failing and killing a pilot once every twenty years you shouldn't be flying in general aviation aircraft.
Gregg you hillarious *******. I just aspirated coffee up into my sinuses and now I smell nothing but Hazelnut.

"The current rate is acceptable?" Obviously you are not flying a tow plane with a Schweizer hook and a release handle down on the floor. No, the current rate is NOT acceptable when there is an improved apparatus known to not fail under similar conditions. You are missing my point entirely but that's okay, miss on.

Walt
  #3  
Old June 27th 17, 03:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 668
Default Letter to the FAA

On Tuesday, 27 June 2017 02:40:44 UTC+3, wrote:
And the premise that if we fix this one thing at any cost then flying will be safe is ludicrous. As is the premise that Schweizer hooks are a killing machine. The current rate is acceptable. If you aren't OK with a mechanical device failing and killing a pilot once every twenty years you shouldn't be flying in general aviation aircraft.


Wow, just wow. Acceptable. It is a release design that is clearly not working as it should and easily fixed with little money and effort (relative to costs of flying in general). And you are talking about acceptable rate of dead tow pilots? Seriously?
  #4  
Old June 27th 17, 04:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 962
Default Letter to the FAA

On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 10:53:28 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
Wow, just wow. Acceptable. It is a release design that is clearly not working as it should and easily fixed with little money and effort (relative to costs of flying in general). And you are talking about acceptable rate of dead tow pilots? Seriously?


It's obviously acceptable: we keep towing, yes?

In many 10s of thousands of tows, my club has had no kiting incidents. No one denies the possibility of an unrecoverable accident and the probability of a Schweizer release failure in this circumstance, but experience shows that these are low probability events. Most of us can distinguish between 1:100,000 and 1:2.

My job as the safety guy is to look at the whole picture, not be a one issue zealot. Given limited resources, I'm on the 1:1000 problems first, not the 1:100,000 problems.

A Tost release is on my want list, but honestly it is not hard to some up with ten things that are far more important to overall club safety.

However, someone posts a 337 for a Tost installation on an L-19, I'll pass the hat, call Portland fsdo and start the ball rolling. It'll be a Winter project and maybe not this Winter if I have to roll my own 337.

Evan Ludeman -- Post Mills Soaring

  #5  
Old June 27th 17, 04:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,383
Default Letter to the FAA

I wonder what paperwork is legally required for an inverted Schwiezer tow release (if you already have one installed)? Should be pretty simple and cheap to do the actual change AND get most of the benefit of a Tost release.

This from a guy that lost a friend that was towing in NJ maybe 30 years ago and had a kiting issue while low. The glider pilot was a known squirrel and was not welcome at our field.
  #6  
Old June 27th 17, 07:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave White[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Letter to the FAA

Hello Walt, First I want to thank you for all the great tows when I was working on my CFIG back in February. If you want to send your letter to the FAA, and it sounds as if you will, you might want to take some precautions. In the 40+ years I flew for a living only 3 or 4 pilots contacted the FAA with safety concerns. To be fair we had other avenues, i.e. Union, etc to air our grievances. But a few did go to the FAA and later had regrets. If they pursue your concerns you may be asked some hard questions. Did you report the incident? To whom did you report the incident? Employer, NASA, FAA, SSA, or anybody else? Did you do a proper preflight of the tow hook? There will be many other questions but I think you get my point. They will be thorough and you will feel as if you are in crosshairs. And you will be in the crosshairs. Before you put a stamp on it get some advice from an aviation lawyer. AOPA has a great legal staff. I would trust their opinion on how to approach the FAA before listening to anyone else. Good luck.
  #7  
Old June 28th 17, 01:26 PM
Walt Connelly Walt Connelly is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by AviationBanter: Aug 2010
Posts: 365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave White[_2_] View Post
Hello Walt, First I want to thank you for all the great tows when I was working on my CFIG back in February. If you want to send your letter to the FAA, and it sounds as if you will, you might want to take some precautions. In the 40+ years I flew for a living only 3 or 4 pilots contacted the FAA with safety concerns. To be fair we had other avenues, i.e. Union, etc to air our grievances. But a few did go to the FAA and later had regrets. If they pursue your concerns you may be asked some hard questions. Did you report the incident? To whom did you report the incident? Employer, NASA, FAA, SSA, or anybody else? Did you do a proper preflight of the tow hook? There will be many other questions but I think you get my point. They will be thorough and you will feel as if you are in crosshairs. And you will be in the crosshairs. Before you put a stamp on it get some advice from an aviation lawyer. AOPA has a great legal staff. I would trust their opinion on how to approach the FAA before listening to anyone else. Good luck.
Dave,

Thank you, I truly loved towing skilled pilots, students and the geriatric crowd not so much but such is life.

As an old retiree I am not aware of all the avenues available for reporting and
"complaining" but I am trying to be careful in all aspects of this endeavor.

I of course reported this to the manager and VP, they are well aware of the incident, more aware than they would like to be I am sure. If there are other avenues of reporting please advise. I was all over the FAA site looking for reporting information and could not find any. Go figure.

I am finding it very difficult to find the information I need as many links to things I want to read are not working. I have learned alot though and my conclusion is that tow pilots, unless they are A&P's or otherwise very familiar with regulations and requirements are doing things everyday contrary to manufacturers recommendations among other things. For instance I understand that towing a glider of a maximum gross weight exceeding 1500 lbs is prohibited by the Schweizer manufacturer, not so with the Tost which I can find information that it exceed 3000 lbs.

One might conclude from this thread that there is an acceptable death rate among tow pilots and that $2500 dollars and repositioning release handles is too much to prevent a death.

Hope you are having a ball teaching.

Walt
  #8  
Old June 28th 17, 04:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave White[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Letter to the FAA

Walt,
Glad to see you saved my message as my fat fingers managed to delete it trying to edit on my phone👠I would start with NASA even though you are outside the 10 day window and copy to SSA. https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html You might consider joining AOPA as they have a great legal team and a good track record of dealing with the FAA.
Regards,
Dave
  #9  
Old June 29th 17, 11:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 962
Default Letter to the FAA

On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 8:43:11 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:

One might conclude from this thread that there is an acceptable
death rate among tow pilots


You state this like it's shocking.

There's a death rate associated with taking aspirin. Or lying in bed.

I looked up all fatal accidents for airplanes in the NTSB database containing the words "glider" and "tow". Back to 1970, it's 24. This link will open that search http://tinyurl.com/y9flwdkh

While there's nothing to celebrate here, that number is an order of magnitude smaller than the number you get in a search for fatal glider accidents over the same period of time (295) and nearly three orders of magnitude smaller than the number of all fatal accidents involving airplanes (22,062). If you sift through those 24 reports to find the fatal accidents where failure to release (for any reason) might have been a factor (many of the accidents happened well after the glider released normally) you might well be down to single digits. I've read about a third of them so far. In any event, you will get to a "small" number, albeit one with that came with catastrophic consequences for family, friends and associates in each and every case (as happened 22,000+ other times over hte same time frame in GA as a whole).. I have no death wish and I do not enjoy the prospect of unnecessary or easily avoidable risk to myself or my friends, and neither does anyone else I know.

Neither am I (or anyone else I know who tows) unconcerned about the potential for problems with the "Elmira Death Hook" (thanks, Gregg), but there's an awful lot else out there that (statistically) is far more likely to be our undoing, especially if we go soaring as well as tow. I do recommend towplane operators improve their release hardware at their earliest opportunity if they are still flying an EDH. And this is my own plan. In the meantime, as previously stated, we're still towing.

You'll do as you see fit of course. But I won't be at all surprised when no one at the FAA takes this very seriously, because on the numbers, they should have better things to do. If per chance someone does (Hi Steve, I hope you're reading!), then the right way to go is get helpful information in the hands of operators, not simply ground everyone.

There are STC'd kits for many towplanes available. By no means all, and mine is one of the oversights so no, I do not have the option of writing a $2500 check and making this happen immediately. Thanks for reading.

best regards,
Evan Ludeman / T8
  #10  
Old June 27th 17, 08:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 962
Default Letter to the FAA

On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 11:55:57 AM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
I wonder what paperwork is legally required for an inverted Schwiezer tow release (if you already have one installed)? Should be pretty simple and cheap to do the actual change AND get most of the benefit of a Tost release.


I grok you still need a 337. But anyhow, Schweizer hooks are out of production. So it comes down to some version of the following:

Option 1: http://www.wingsunlimitedtowhooks.co...on-bumper.html

Option 2: http://wingsandwheels.com/aircraft-p...w-release.html

This isn't really a tough call, but you do need an approved installation.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
from latest news letter on vulcan, hope it is of intrest to some of you if you dont get the news letter PAUL H Aviation Photos 0 January 27th 13 11:21 AM
A LETTER OF THANKS minimoa Soaring 0 September 14th 10 12:06 AM
Letter from TSA? Emily Piloting 14 August 14th 06 11:33 PM
A letter to a friend... Greasy Rider© @ invalid.com Naval Aviation 3 August 23rd 05 12:23 AM
Letter from TSA Rosspilot Piloting 2 November 20th 03 01:12 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2025 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.