Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

wrote on 9/26/2017 5:20 PM:
That said, the FAA is making it less likely the clue will be provided with the ADSB program. I have mode C + Flarm now. To move to ADSB 2020 will cost $4k. (1800 for the transponder + $1800 for the GPS + install)

$1800 for the GPS seems unrealistic, given I can make the Dynon Skyview with trig
transponder in my Phoenix 2020 compliant for only $500 for the GPS.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 9:50:41 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 9/26/2017 5:20 PM:
That said, the FAA is making it less likely the clue will be provided with the ADSB program. I have mode C + Flarm now. To move to ADSB 2020 will cost $4k. (1800 for the transponder + $1800 for the GPS + install)

$1800 for the GPS seems unrealistic, given I can make the Dynon Skyview with trig
transponder in my Phoenix 2020 compliant for only $500 for the GPS.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

Eric

I think the cost estimates here are reasonable if the glider is certified, if experimental its going to be less. And the category is not made clear.

If the glider is certified, the only GPS he can practically use to meet 2020 carriage requirements with a TT22 transponder is the Trig TN70 which is ~$2,000 with wiring harness, plus the cost of antenna, plus installation. Plus a TT-22 which is $2000-$2,200 plus installation.

If you are looking at the Dynon SV-GPS-2020 GPS Receiver/Antenna it is a "meet performance requirement of TSO-C145" device, not actually TSO-C145 and cannot be used in a certified aircraft. Your Phoenix is light-sports and does not need to use TSO'ed avionics, so you are fine. On the evolutionary ladder it offers benefits between the TN72 (TSO-C199, but not "meets TSO-C145") and TN70 (full actual TSO-C145). I am not sure but that Dynon SV-GPS-2020 GPS Receiver/Antenna may not work with standard trig TT22 transponders. If it did then I'd be more tempted to use that than the TN72 TABS GPS because the Dynon SV-GPS-2020 would provide 2020 ADS-B Out compliance if gliders ever lost the ADS-B Out exception. Whereas with todays lack of any regulations about TABS the TN72 would not.... (that is just messed up, as I've already mentioned in this thread).

The Trig TN72 is currently priced at ~$350+$300 antenna, a bit above the Dynon GPS 9with integral antenna) at $590.

it may be the low aggressive price (for a meets TSO-C145 devices) on the Dynon SV-GPS-2020 may in part be because Dynon wanted to provide users of the previous generation similar GPS receivers a low-cost upgrade path since the FAA changes with ADS-B compatibility in 2016 affected those older GPS receiver based systems (they would no longer trigger ADS-B ground services). Either way it's a great price and I hope we can hear how it goes for you if you install in your Phoenix.

Here is a thought, curious what others think.

How about a 2 tier certification for these systems?
First, and least expensive, is "day only VFR". This would be made up of COTS GPS units and "performs like" transmitters.
Second, and more expensive, Day/night and IFR certified.

The first type is likely what is currently allowed in US experimental. You don't really need the precision since it just gives a heads up and the visibility is good enough to allow you to find the potential conflict aircraft. These units may also have a max height restriction......comments on this?

The second type NEEDS the precision since visibility may be next to "0" so you need the precision.

Yes, it means the FAA will need to make changes. Then again, we now have a sport recreation pilot certificate that has similar restrictions.

If the FAA agrees (possibly with nudging from AOPA, SSA and others), it may make adoption that much more likely.

Thoughts?

This is essentially what you have with TABS. A simpler GPS for ADS-B approval able to be based on COTS GPS but not to meet the 2020 Mandate. This is all an old discussion that has been gone over here before. You are wasting effort trying to reinvent the wheel. Time would likely be better spend understanding more what today’s technical options really are and working to improve those and regulations around them.

You can’t just have any old COTS GPS connected up to some ADS-B Out systems and have others see them without lots of potential issues. For the system to work both IFR aircraft and ATC needs to “see� VFR aircraft and trust their ADS-B Out GPS is working and accurate (both for not false positive threats or negative notice of real threats). The current situation where the ADS-B ground infrastructure and IFR ADS-B In system ignore SIL=0 (is true COTS GPS) is because of concern about what GPS source issues could dobtontge system.

FLARM for example manages their system by using specific GPS chipsets and lots of knowledge. FLARM is *not* COTS. You cannot just connect any old GPS received to a FLARM, for good reason.

The development of TSO-C199/TABS was specifically to allow COTS type GPS sources to be used in ADS-B Out systems. To reduce costs, by simplifying some requirements and providing simpler approval processes for devices. A whole slew of organizations including TRIG, FLARM, MITRE, the SSA, and the FAA has input into TSO-C199/TABS. It is a five deal and early products like the TN72 exist. But the FAA never delivered things like regulations to allow installation in certified gliders. Issues like seeking a solution for that are where it would be more useful for the glider community to invest effort.

And again for the airliner scenario here, ADS-B is a red-herring. Stick a transponder in the glider, problem solved.

I will "assume" this is a reply to my earlier post?

If so, thanks.

FAA does not seem to like making things easy. Basic regs are "easy", the exceptions are killer though.....

I have a Dynon Skyview System with the SV-GPS-2020 GPS source installed in my Phoenix Motorglider. Having a full blown ADS~B IN / OUT system is eye opening. It’s astounding how much traffic there is that you never see visually.

We keep talking about airliners. At least as big a threat to gliders is other GA traffic, particularly when you are near airports. One of the closest calls I have had was landing a glider at a small rural airport, and while on the base leg discovering a helicopter hovering just off the arrival end of the runway. Turns out that the helio pilots were so engrossed in a BFR that they never heard my calls on the CTAF frequency and only realized I was in the area when I landed in the grass right next to them.

If we had universal ADS-B deployment on all aircraft, including gliders, balloons, drones, etc. we would all be a lot better off. It’s frustrating that the FAA has an attitude that they would rather not see COTS GPS at all rather than face the inconvenience of routing aircraft around a false position. It’s a bummer that Trig hasn’t been able to get the TN72 OKed for installation in a certified glider. Given this latest incident in Chicago, the SSA and AOPA should make it their top prriority to get the FAA to relax their standards for this kind of equipment.

On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 12:51:48 PM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:
I have a Dynon Skyview System with the SV-GPS-2020 GPS source installed in my Phoenix Motorglider. Having a full blown ADS~B IN / OUT system is eye opening. It’s astounding how much traffic there is that you never see visually.

We keep talking about airliners. At least as big a threat to gliders is other GA traffic, particularly when you are near airports. One of the closest calls I have had was landing a glider at a small rural airport, and while on the base leg discovering a helicopter hovering just off the arrival end of the runway. Turns out that the helio pilots were so engrossed in a BFR that they never heard my calls on the CTAF frequency and only realized I was in the area when I landed in the grass right next to them.

If we had universal ADS-B deployment on all aircraft, including gliders, balloons, drones, etc. we would all be a lot better off. It’s frustrating that the FAA has an attitude that they would rather not see COTS GPS at all rather than face the inconvenience of routing aircraft around a false position. It’s a bummer that Trig hasn’t been able to get the TN72 OKed for installation in a certified glider. Given this latest incident in Chicago, the SSA and AOPA should make it their top prriority to get the FAA to relax their standards for this kind of equipment.

The focus here was in airliners because of what happened in Chicago, not to ignore other issues.

Please be careful not to call the TN72 a "COTS GPS", it is not, it's a precision TSO-C199 GPS source for ADS-B Out. TSO-C199 devices might be based on consumer GPS technology, but are far from some untrusted COTS GPS that average freddie might just connect up to something. We need to be careful not to give anybody that impression we are talking about use of COTS GPS.

Mike I am as frustrated as you are about the TN72 situation. It's not 100% clear what the situation is for use in certified gliders. I have said in the past it's likely no go, based on inputs from other as well, but I am going back working over this again and reaching out to FSDOs and others in the FAA, and Trig and their US distributor, and working with SSA folks. We'll see where this goes.

It would be great to hear from any glider owners who have had discussions with FAA staff on a TN72 install in a certified or experimental glider (email me: ).

Darryl Ramm wrote on 9/27/2017 10:39 PM:
t may be the low aggressive price (for a meets TSO-C145 devices) on the Dynon SV-GPS-2020 may in part be because Dynon wanted to provide users of the previous generation similar GPS receivers a low-cost upgrade path since the FAA changes with ADS-B compatibility in 2016 affected those older GPS receiver based systems (they would no longer trigger ADS-B ground services). Either way it's a great price and I hope we can hear how it goes for you if you install in your Phoenix.

A few Phoenix owners have installed SV-GPS-2020, and are apparently happy with it.
I'll likely do that eventually; currently, I'm waiting for my SV-ADSB-472 Dual
Band receiver. The early adopters appear to like it a lot.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf