Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

I will "assume" this is a reply to my earlier post?

If so, thanks.

FAA does not seem to like making things easy. Basic regs are "easy", the exceptions are killer though.....

I have a Dynon Skyview System with the SV-GPS-2020 GPS source installed in my Phoenix Motorglider. Having a full blown ADS~B IN / OUT system is eye opening. It’s astounding how much traffic there is that you never see visually.

We keep talking about airliners. At least as big a threat to gliders is other GA traffic, particularly when you are near airports. One of the closest calls I have had was landing a glider at a small rural airport, and while on the base leg discovering a helicopter hovering just off the arrival end of the runway. Turns out that the helio pilots were so engrossed in a BFR that they never heard my calls on the CTAF frequency and only realized I was in the area when I landed in the grass right next to them.

If we had universal ADS-B deployment on all aircraft, including gliders, balloons, drones, etc. we would all be a lot better off. It’s frustrating that the FAA has an attitude that they would rather not see COTS GPS at all rather than face the inconvenience of routing aircraft around a false position. It’s a bummer that Trig hasn’t been able to get the TN72 OKed for installation in a certified glider. Given this latest incident in Chicago, the SSA and AOPA should make it their top prriority to get the FAA to relax their standards for this kind of equipment.

On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 8:17:06 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 4:40:10 PM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
So how do you personally feel about trivializing an NMAC with an airliner as "spilt drinks".

The issue _seems_ very much resistance to cost, you keep mentioning it. If Post Mills Soaring Club (PSMC) can develop low cost soaring, that's great. If you can fly safely in areas where transponders don't make sense that is great as well. I hope folks that understand the safety issues are invoked in making those transponder/no-transponder decisions.

Pilots who post such extreme alarming safety related statements on a public forum invite examination of their own safety related behavior, and if they fly with a club, of the operation of that club. I had no idea about PSMC until these post got me giving it a quick look. Straight off the bat I see it is located close between two VORs, and there will be IFR traffic overhead going into Burlington, and the club conduct wave flights, etc.. What percentage of the Post Mills glider Club fleet is transponder equipped? Of the gliders which conduct higher flights in Wave? Does PMSC have local cooperation/procedures with ATC etc? I have no idea, please let us know--that might completely change the impression of your club so far given by one of your members.

Hi Darryl,

Neither of those two guys speak for the club (and neither, for that matter, do I). Both seem to be afflicted with keyboard induced ODD. Neither, in person, seems inclined to trivialize a near accident with hundreds of potential fatalities.

Post Mills is about as podunk as remains in the lower 48. Burlington is a complete non-factor (big rocks East of Burlington might have something to do with this) and fast traffic in/out of Montpelier and Lebanon is modest (I see 'em on PowerFlarm). Transponders would be a complete waste of resources in our club fleet. They would be interrogated only very rarely. Transponders would not be a total waste for our XC guys but I'd personally rather see them spend their money on PowerFlarm first.

Wave soaring with atc implications chiefly occurs at Mt Washington and we have an excellent working relationship with Boston Center that allows us a 10 NM radius window to support our wave camp operations.

As far as potential for conflicts with fast jets, the real risk for us is military. And here, there is no help. They don't use ADS-B, they don't have TCAS. This is a much bigger beef, a much more dangerous trivial attitude, than some smartass on r.a.s.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

Evan, if folks like you are involved in that area I feel much more comfortable that safety risks are understood and managed. I hope glider pilots can evaluate risks and work to reduce them, but the crazy comments about the seriousness of an airliner NMAC just raised immediate concerns.

---

You may be way ahead of me here already, but I'll just mention that fighter jets may have IFF interrogators and may be able to see transponder equipped gliders, without being actual TCAS. Not all military jets have IFF interrogators. Military controllers (or Boston center) may be able to see transponder equipped aircraft, at least at higher altitudes and the military pilots may be checking with them for traffic. It may be worth having that discussion with folks to see. In many of the busy California and Great Basin MOAs being transponder equipped is very effective to let military SSR radar see you.

On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 4:20:54 PM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 8:17:06 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 4:40:10 PM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
So how do you personally feel about trivializing an NMAC with an airliner as "spilt drinks".

The issue _seems_ very much resistance to cost, you keep mentioning it. If Post Mills Soaring Club (PSMC) can develop low cost soaring, that's great. If you can fly safely in areas where transponders don't make sense that is great as well. I hope folks that understand the safety issues are invoked in making those transponder/no-transponder decisions.

Pilots who post such extreme alarming safety related statements on a public forum invite examination of their own safety related behavior, and if they fly with a club, of the operation of that club. I had no idea about PSMC until these post got me giving it a quick look. Straight off the bat I see it is located close between two VORs, and there will be IFR traffic overhead going into Burlington, and the club conduct wave flights, etc.. What percentage of the Post Mills glider Club fleet is transponder equipped? Of the gliders which conduct higher flights in Wave? Does PMSC have local cooperation/procedures with ATC etc? I have no idea, please let us know--that might completely change the impression of your club so far given by one of your members.

Hi Darryl,

Neither of those two guys speak for the club (and neither, for that matter, do I). Both seem to be afflicted with keyboard induced ODD. Neither, in person, seems inclined to trivialize a near accident with hundreds of potential fatalities.

Post Mills is about as podunk as remains in the lower 48. Burlington is a complete non-factor (big rocks East of Burlington might have something to do with this) and fast traffic in/out of Montpelier and Lebanon is modest (I see 'em on PowerFlarm). Transponders would be a complete waste of resources in our club fleet. They would be interrogated only very rarely. Transponders would not be a total waste for our XC guys but I'd personally rather see them spend their money on PowerFlarm first.

Wave soaring with atc implications chiefly occurs at Mt Washington and we have an excellent working relationship with Boston Center that allows us a 10 NM radius window to support our wave camp operations.

As far as potential for conflicts with fast jets, the real risk for us is military. And here, there is no help. They don't use ADS-B, they don't have TCAS. This is a much bigger beef, a much more dangerous trivial attitude, than some smartass on r.a.s.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

Evan, if folks like you are involved in that area I feel much more comfortable that safety risks are understood and managed. I hope glider pilots can evaluate risks and work to reduce them, but the crazy comments about the seriousness of an airliner NMAC just raised immediate concerns.

---

You may be way ahead of me here already, but I'll just mention that fighter jets may have IFF interrogators and may be able to see transponder equipped gliders, without being actual TCAS. Not all military jets have IFF interrogators. Military controllers (or Boston center) may be able to see transponder equipped aircraft, at least at higher altitudes and the military pilots may be checking with them for traffic. It may be worth having that discussion with folks to see. In many of the busy California and Great Basin MOAs being transponder equipped is very effective to let military SSR radar see you.

That's a good tip on IFF. We had some guys attend an Air Guard open house a couple of years ago (I wasn't able to make it) and while our pilots met their pilots and our guys learned a few things about their operations (moderately concerning), iirc the conclusion was that we had no ready option to make ourselves visible to each other. It's about time to renew those contacts anyway, so we can ask.

They need to at least be aware of the fact that on nice Summer afternoons there are going to be bunches of gliders on the Whites & Greens and at most ten percent are transponder equipped. I think they get this. It's been a couple of years since I last heard fighter traffic in the Whites on a soarable day.


best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

Has anyone played with stratux http://stratux.me/ in a glider? Any idea if it will display on one of the open source flight computers, Tophat or XCsoar or?

I played with Stratux for a while and then passed it on to another
glider pilot.Â* I got it second hand from a glider pilot, as well.

The system I had consisted of a separate box, two antennae, a power
cable, and a display device.Â* I found that it provided great visibility
of ADS-B targets and weather overlayed on a map background.Â* It was
quite interesting to sit in my living room with the Stratux box in the
window sill and watch traffic in the pattern at Santa Fe, about 40 air
miles away.Â* I could follow them from arrival, down wind, base, and
about half way down final before they dropped below coverage of the
tower on Sandia Peak.Â* I was very excited to try it in flight, but...

The three cables running across the glare shield and Velcro mounted
antennae coming loose from their mounts (certificated aircraft so it was
a portable rather than permanent installation), were always a
distraction.Â* I never had a decent sunlight readable screen to display
it on.Â* I planned to run Avare on my Streak along with XCSoar and simply
switch between the two.Â* A split screen would have been better but the
Streak neither supports split screen nor the interface program required
to read the data from Stratux, therefore I ran it on a Nexus 7 which was
useless if the sun was out.

Bottom line:Â* If you have a sunlight readable screen and an OS which
runs the program, it's a lot of fun and provides good information. The
down side is figuring a way to have it mounted so that you can give it a
glance now and then without futzing with another display floating around
the cockpit.Â* It looks really nice when run on, say, Avare on a big
screen mounted to the yoke of a power plane.

One more thing - it is a power hog and I had a lot of trouble finding a
USB cable which supported the amperage requirement. Without the current,
the radios will not lock on.

On 9/29/2017 8:39 AM, wrote:
Has anyone played with stratux http://stratux.me/ in a glider? Any idea if it will display on one of the open source flight computers, Tophat or XCsoar or?

--
Dan, 5J

I've built Stratux devices and used them in my living room, but not
flown with them. Hard to find room for another tablet. But very
impressive what it can do.

If I were going to fly with one, I'd probably use a Uavionix Scout (was
Pingbuddy 3). Much more compact, and they have low power receivers that
reduces the battery draw considerably. Only downside is no internal
GPS, they rely on what's inside the tablet.


On 09/29/2017 10:35 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
I played with Stratux for a while and then passed it on to another
glider pilot.Â* I got it second hand from a glider pilot, as well.

The system I had consisted of a separate box, two antennae, a power
cable, and a display device.Â* I found that it provided great visibility
of ADS-B targets and weather overlayed on a map background.Â* It was
quite interesting to sit in my living room with the Stratux box in the
window sill and watch traffic in the pattern at Santa Fe, about 40 air
miles away.Â* I could follow them from arrival, down wind, base, and
about half way down final before they dropped below coverage of the
tower on Sandia Peak.Â* I was very excited to try it in flight, but...

The three cables running across the glare shield and Velcro mounted
antennae coming loose from their mounts (certificated aircraft so it was
a portable rather than permanent installation), were always a
distraction.Â* I never had a decent sunlight readable screen to display
it on.Â* I planned to run Avare on my Streak along with XCSoar and simply
switch between the two.Â* A split screen would have been better but the
Streak neither supports split screen nor the interface program required
to read the data from Stratux, therefore I ran it on a Nexus 7 which was
useless if the sun was out.

Bottom line:Â* If you have a sunlight readable screen and an OS which
runs the program, it's a lot of fun and provides good information. The
down side is figuring a way to have it mounted so that you can give it a
glance now and then without futzing with another display floating around
the cockpit.Â* It looks really nice when run on, say, Avare on a big
screen mounted to the yoke of a power plane.

One more thing - it is a power hog and I had a lot of trouble finding a
USB cable which supported the amperage requirement. Without the current,
the radios will not lock on.

On 9/29/2017 8:39 AM, wrote:
Has anyone played with stratux http://stratux.me/ in a glider?Â* Any
idea if it will display on one of the open source flight computers,
Tophat or XCsoar or?

Looks like the Scout has been hardwired to only work with Foreflight.
That's a pity.



On 09/29/2017 11:51 AM, kinsell wrote:
I've built Stratux devices and used them in my living room, but not
flown with them.Â* Hard to find room for another tablet.Â* But very
impressive what it can do.

If I were going to fly with one, I'd probably use a Uavionix Scout (was
Pingbuddy 3).Â* Much more compact, and they have low power receivers that
reduces the battery draw considerably.Â* Only downside is no internal
GPS, they rely on what's inside the tablet.


On 09/29/2017 10:35 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
I played with Stratux for a while and then passed it on to another
glider pilot.Â* I got it second hand from a glider pilot, as well.

The system I had consisted of a separate box, two antennae, a power
cable, and a display device.Â* I found that it provided great
visibility of ADS-B targets and weather overlayed on a map
background.Â* It was quite interesting to sit in my living room with
the Stratux box in the window sill and watch traffic in the pattern at
Santa Fe, about 40 air miles away.Â* I could follow them from arrival,
down wind, base, and about half way down final before they dropped
below coverage of the tower on Sandia Peak.Â* I was very excited to try
it in flight, but...

The three cables running across the glare shield and Velcro mounted
antennae coming loose from their mounts (certificated aircraft so it
was a portable rather than permanent installation), were always a
distraction.Â* I never had a decent sunlight readable screen to display
it on.Â* I planned to run Avare on my Streak along with XCSoar and
simply switch between the two.Â* A split screen would have been better
but the Streak neither supports split screen nor the interface program
required to read the data from Stratux, therefore I ran it on a Nexus
7 which was useless if the sun was out.

Bottom line:Â* If you have a sunlight readable screen and an OS which
runs the program, it's a lot of fun and provides good information. The
down side is figuring a way to have it mounted so that you can give it
a glance now and then without futzing with another display floating
around the cockpit.Â* It looks really nice when run on, say, Avare on a
big screen mounted to the yoke of a power plane.

One more thing - it is a power hog and I had a lot of trouble finding
a USB cable which supported the amperage requirement. Without the
current, the radios will not lock on.

On 9/29/2017 8:39 AM, wrote:
Has anyone played with stratux http://stratux.me/ in a glider?Â* Any
idea if it will display on one of the open source flight computers,
Tophat or XCsoar or?

Darryl Ramm wrote on 9/27/2017 10:39 PM:
t may be the low aggressive price (for a meets TSO-C145 devices) on the Dynon SV-GPS-2020 may in part be because Dynon wanted to provide users of the previous generation similar GPS receivers a low-cost upgrade path since the FAA changes with ADS-B compatibility in 2016 affected those older GPS receiver based systems (they would no longer trigger ADS-B ground services). Either way it's a great price and I hope we can hear how it goes for you if you install in your Phoenix.

A few Phoenix owners have installed SV-GPS-2020, and are apparently happy with it.
I'll likely do that eventually; currently, I'm waiting for my SV-ADSB-472 Dual
Band receiver. The early adopters appear to like it a lot.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 12:51:48 PM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:
I have a Dynon Skyview System with the SV-GPS-2020 GPS source installed in my Phoenix Motorglider. Having a full blown ADS~B IN / OUT system is eye opening. It’s astounding how much traffic there is that you never see visually.

We keep talking about airliners. At least as big a threat to gliders is other GA traffic, particularly when you are near airports. One of the closest calls I have had was landing a glider at a small rural airport, and while on the base leg discovering a helicopter hovering just off the arrival end of the runway. Turns out that the helio pilots were so engrossed in a BFR that they never heard my calls on the CTAF frequency and only realized I was in the area when I landed in the grass right next to them.

If we had universal ADS-B deployment on all aircraft, including gliders, balloons, drones, etc. we would all be a lot better off. It’s frustrating that the FAA has an attitude that they would rather not see COTS GPS at all rather than face the inconvenience of routing aircraft around a false position. It’s a bummer that Trig hasn’t been able to get the TN72 OKed for installation in a certified glider. Given this latest incident in Chicago, the SSA and AOPA should make it their top prriority to get the FAA to relax their standards for this kind of equipment.

The focus here was in airliners because of what happened in Chicago, not to ignore other issues.

Please be careful not to call the TN72 a "COTS GPS", it is not, it's a precision TSO-C199 GPS source for ADS-B Out. TSO-C199 devices might be based on consumer GPS technology, but are far from some untrusted COTS GPS that average freddie might just connect up to something. We need to be careful not to give anybody that impression we are talking about use of COTS GPS.

Mike I am as frustrated as you are about the TN72 situation. It's not 100% clear what the situation is for use in certified gliders. I have said in the past it's likely no go, based on inputs from other as well, but I am going back working over this again and reaching out to FSDOs and others in the FAA, and Trig and their US distributor, and working with SSA folks. We'll see where this goes.

It would be great to hear from any glider owners who have had discussions with FAA staff on a TN72 install in a certified or experimental glider (email me: ).