The US Team selection process in future years

The really interesting thing about this year's team selection is not that one pilot wanted to go in 18 and was offered 15 instead. The really screaming issue we saw this year is that pilot after pilot declined the opportunity.. What is going on that so many of our top pilots turn down the chance to go to WGC? Is there anything we can do about that? Or is it just that the IGC itself needs to reform the worlds game to make it more attractive? I'd love to hear from those who turned down the chance as to why they did so.

John Cochrane

On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 1:21:21 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
The really screaming issue we saw this year is that pilot after pilot declined the opportunity.

Yes, John, I had the same startled reaction. I assume it's money and time. Lots of both are required, I'm told.

I'll take it one step further. Forty years ago, we had only two classes, Open and Standard, before adding 15M, and one world championships held every 2 years. It was a BIG DEAL to get on the U.S. Team (as illustrated by the alleged gaming of the preferential voting system that, among other things, is thought to have denied George Moffat the chance to defend his World Champion title in 1976 in Finland and occasional discussions of a SuperNationals with the top X in each class invited to participate to determine the U.S. Team slots).

With a few exceptions, the same small handful of top U.S. pilots returned to the World Championships time after time.

I'm only half kidding when I say that I'm not sure how many classes we have now (7?) or how many world championships there are (at least one a year, sometimes 2). But the word "proliferation" comes to mind. And arguably the number of serious competitors has shrunk (although the dramatic decrease in nationals attendance probably owes as much to class proliferation as to declining participation). As a result, the pool of U.S. Team members seems to have expanded. I don't want to say it's easier to get on the Team. But it does seem that way.

I'll defer to John when it comes to economic theory but I wonder if the declining "price of admission" to qualifying for the U.S. Team might spur demand for it over time, resulting in increased nationals participation by pilots who might otherwise fly a couple of regionals instead. This could be exacerbated (enhanced?) by the fact that pilots would have to commit a lot of time and personal funds to accept an invitation, thus reducing demand and prompting many to decline.

Chip Bearden

Good post Chip, but it turns out that it's not true that we just send the same pilots over and over again. A few stalwarts (masochists?) like Gary Ittner have done it many times, but you just notice them. Most pilots on US teams have gone to exactly one WGC, and most US team slots have been to pilots who went once. One problem the US team is trying to solve is the consequent loss of knowledge and experience. I'm an example, I went once, learned a lot, but all that experience is lost. Most of the team I went with (Kelly, Tyler, Elliot) went once, only Elliot going again, and that to Uvalde. It cost north of $35,000 and that was 2010.

I wonder if other teams are having this difficulty. Also knowing we're one step behind on the technology side before we show up can't help.

John Cochrane

On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 2:21:13 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
Good post Chip, but it turns out that it's not true that we just send the same pilots over and over again.

Sorry, John, I thought I was clear in referring to the old days when the teams comprised George Moffat, Dick Johnson, AJ Smith, Dick Schreder, and a handful of others. Just for kicks, I went to http://www.ssa.org/USTeam?show=blog&id=2128 and checked out the teams for the years of my youth. In the 9 world championships between 1960 and 1978, only 14 different pilots filled 34 of the team slots. Dick Johnson went 8 times followed by Schreder, AJ, and Moffat with 4 times each. It's perhaps no coincidence that the latter two garnered 3 of America's 5 world championships, each of them winning the 2nd time around (and 4th, in Moffat's case).

In 2012, by contrast (the last "big championship" year on this page), the U..S. Team comprised 11 pilots just for this year alone!

FWIW, at least two of those pilots declined invitations to participate in this year's selection. So I'll stay with my tentative conclusions that it's "easier" to get on a U.S. Team (which might have the effect of attracting pilots to national contests) while agreeing with you that the cost and time might discourage pilots from doing so more than once or twice. As you point out, that's bad for U.S. Team prospects over time.

Interestingly, only 3 of the 12 (twelve!) pilots who participated with you in 2010 showed up two years later, but I don't know how much of that was team selection vs. cost/time. If cost is the big inhibitor, the solution is simple: just raise more funding for the Team!

Chip Bearden

On Monday, 6 November 2017 14:27:39 UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 2:21:13 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
Good post Chip, but it turns out that it's not true that we just send the same pilots over and over again.

Sorry, John, I thought I was clear in referring to the old days when the teams comprised George Moffat, Dick Johnson, AJ Smith, Dick Schreder, and a handful of others. Just for kicks, I went to http://www.ssa.org/USTeam?show=blog&id=2128 and checked out the teams for the years of my youth. In the 9 world championships between 1960 and 1978, only 14 different pilots filled 34 of the team slots. Dick Johnson went 8 times followed by Schreder, AJ, and Moffat with 4 times each. It's perhaps no coincidence that the latter two garnered 3 of America's 5 world championships, each of them winning the 2nd time around (and 4th, in Moffat's case).

In 2012, by contrast (the last "big championship" year on this page), the U.S. Team comprised 11 pilots just for this year alone!

FWIW, at least two of those pilots declined invitations to participate in this year's selection. So I'll stay with my tentative conclusions that it's "easier" to get on a U.S. Team (which might have the effect of attracting pilots to national contests) while agreeing with you that the cost and time might discourage pilots from doing so more than once or twice. As you point out, that's bad for U.S. Team prospects over time.

Interestingly, only 3 of the 12 (twelve!) pilots who participated with you in 2010 showed up two years later, but I don't know how much of that was team selection vs. cost/time. If cost is the big inhibitor, the solution is simple: just raise more funding for the Team!

Chip Bearden

Another factor may be the short time to prepare and plan for 2018 events. With the change in selection process, the folks going to the 2018 events have 9 months or less to prepare, line up equipment, housing etc etc.

Previously the individuals were selected 18+ months advance, providing time to even attend the pre-worlds if they so desired.

The new selection process could have started after Uvalde and provided a couple of more months.

At 18:21 06 November 2017, John Cochrane wrote:
The really interesting thing about this year's team selection is
not that one pilot wanted to go in 18 and was offered 15 instead.
The really screaming issue we saw this year is that pilot after
pilot declined the opportunity.. What is going on that so many of
our top pilots turn down the chance to go to WGC? Is there
anything we can do about that? Or is it just that the IGC itself
needs to reform the worlds game to make it more attractive? I'd
love to hear from those who turned down the chance as to why
they did so.
John Cochrane


The first US team which was selected by objective performance
was picked in 1984 for the 1985 Rieti Italy WGC. The members
we
Ray Gimmey - Open
Doug Jacobs -15m
John Seaborn -15m
Eric Mozer- Std
Mike Opitz-Std (myself)

The results were the best that Team USA has had in quite a while.
DJ won in 15m using "lone eagle" tactics. John Seaborn had a lot
of troubles and wound up at 33rd....
Ray wound up in 7th place in Open. Eric and I flew as a team
and finished 3rd and 5th.
So, we had mixed good results between "lone eagle" and team
tactics. This was before the other National teams really started to
aggressively train in team and pair flying tactics. All team member
expenses were covered by the SSA through member donations and
the raffle sale of a glider. (SSA membership = ~16K people)

The team for 1987 Benalla Australia, and results we
Ray Gimmey - Open -11
Doug Jacobs - 15m - 3
Eric Mozer - 15m - 15
Mike Opitz -Std - 2
John Byrd - Std -11
The other nations were now starting to aggressively train in team
flying. The French team finished right behind me in Std. Our
Open and 15m flew pretty much as "lone eagles".
John Byrd and I flew team. The only reason John did not finish
next to me was that we got split up on two critical days, and he
lost out each time that happened. Compared to recent results,
these results were not bad with 2 podium finishes. The SSA was
able to fully fund the team through the same fund raising as in
1985.

The team for 1989 Wiener Neustadt Austria and results we
Ray Gimmey - Open - 9
Ron Tabery - Open - 14
Doug Jacobs - 15m - 11
Karl Striedieck -15m - 17
Mike Opitz - Std - 18
John Byrd - STD - 16
John Byrd and I flew team, and the others were all "lone eagles".
The first 2 days were flown in very weak conditions into (newly
opened from the Soviet block) Hungary, which proved difficult
for all of us. The rest of the contest was in the Alps where local
knowledge became a big player. The French, German and British
teams had all been training very hard in team flying tactics by
then, and the results reflected that training. Again, the SSA was
able to fully fund all team member expenses through similar fund
raising activities.

You will notice that as the other Nations aggressively trained in
team flying over that 4 year period, the US team's performance
dropped, and kept falling for quite a while to follow.

I qualified for the US team again for 1995 Omarama New Zealand.
I was #5 out of 9 pilots. By that time, fund raising was starting
to go down, and the number of team members was up to 9 pilots
now - for a contest 1/2 the way around the world. The SSA
decided that they could only fully fund 4 team members, so #5-#9
were on their own to totally self fund. I had to decline my slot
as I could not afford the estimated ~$15,000 cost at that time.

I qualified for the US team again for 2001 Mafeking South Africa.
By then, funding was a real problem. There was the regular WGC
plus Club, World, 18m, Junior Class WGC's as well - including 5
team managers totaling 21 people plus crews who wanted
funding. I figured that it would now cost me ~$15,000 to self
fund what the SSA would not cover, so I declined again as I
could not afford it.

Now, I have qualified as an alternate for WGC 2018 Poland in Club
Class, and am declining that for financial reasons as well. Had
I been selected #1 or #2, I might have tried to see if someone
in Europe would be willing to swap gliders (and tow cars for equal
time periods) with me in order to reduce costs. The SSA funding
for Poland will only be for entry and tow fees. To stand by "just
in case" translates into ~$20.000 estimated out of pocket
expenses if called to go on short notice. US team members paid
between $20,000 and $30,000 out of pocket each for past WGC
contests in Lithuania and Finland.

For the Europeans, they can just hook their gliders onto their cars
and drive to the WGC's about 75% of the time. They don't have
to deal with ocean freight like we do almost continually. A lot of
them camp out in caravans at the contest to save expenses as
well. The Aussies, Kiwis, South Africans, and Canadians are in
much the same boat that we in the USA are, and it would be
interesting to see how they handle the funding and logistics
issues.

On top of all of that, the USA is a big country, and it is hard to get
team members together to train in team flying over those huge
distances. Most European nations are only geographically as large
as one of our 50 States, so it is easier for them to practice
together.

Lots of problems and issues. I don't have the answers either. We
are dealing with a world wide decline in interest in our sport. At
our home airfield in upstate NY, we are struggling to find new
members to replace the older group which is now aging out of
the sport.... As membership declines, WGC team funding does as
well. We may need to eliminate some FAI classes or somehow
reduce the numbers of folks that have a shot at getting a piece
of the funding pie. If one is good enough to be selected every
two years, one had better be rich if they plan to go to every
WGC. Right now, it appears that pilots who presently get to
go - compete in one or two WGC's and then say "been there,
done that, got the T-shirt, and I can't afford to keep doing
this..."

RO

Hold the WGC in America. Make the Europeans take a boat.

At 11:54 07 November 2017, wrote:
Hold the WGC in America. Make the Europeans take a boat.

Marfa, Hobbs and Uvalde X 2. We have hosted them, probably
more times than most any other nation over that time period.
There are a lot of other countries that make up the IGC
community, and a lot of them want their turn to host a WGC.
Most of those countries are grouped together in Europe, so
that's where ~75% of the WGC's will be held. The USA is not
the center of the IGC soaring world. That is a fact that our
folks will just have to deal with. Otherwise, just do OLC and
stay at home...

I stopped racing entirely from 2001 until 2015 because of the
WGC team funding issues. My reasoning was, why bother racing
and qualifying if I'm just going to have to turn down a slot
anyway? I have raced the last 3 years again, mostly for fun,
and to see what the new generation is up to. Going forward
from here, I only see myself racing for the challenge and fun of
it without regards to team selection at all. Otherwise, it just
becomes too frustrating, and makes it not worth the effort at
all anymore..

RO

Excellent report RO! Most informative piece I've ever read on RAS.

I hadn't realized the degree of financial commitment that's required of the team members. Between the problems of geography that prevents team practicing and the geography problem that increases travel cost and the expanding number of classes and the declining SSA membership base, we're in a pickle..

One thing that your report shows is that during the early years of objective team selection, there was not a problem that could be tied to rotating in too many new people as consequence of objective standards.

At 16:11 07 November 2017, Steve Koerner wrote:
Excellent report RO! Most informative piece I've ever read on RAS.


One thing that your report shows is that during the early years
of objective team selection, there was not a problem that could
be tied to rotating in too many new people as consequence of
objective standards.


Funny Rieti story. During the opening parade, the announcer hardly
recognized any of the USA team's names, so he introduced us as
the "much overhauled Team USA", and everyone was snickering.
They didn't snicker anymore after the first competition day though.
DJ and I won the day in 15m and Std. The other team members
placed right up there with us. There was lots of shouting on the
German's part due to the fact that we had procured the "coaching"
services of German champion Walter Neubert (who had great
individual success in Rieti). When asked why he wasn't coaching the
German team, Walter replied that nobody had thought to ask him.
The Germans were labeling Walter as a traitor, and he just laughed
it off. What a real gentleman. We had T-shirts made that had Team
USA on the fronts, and "much overhauled" across the backs in order
tweak the people and announcer who had been snickering during
the opening ceremonies.

DJ flew an absolutely unconscious contest as a lone eagle. His lead
kept growing as the organizers kept setting harder and harder tasks
with what looked like (to us anyway) the intent to get DJ to land out
and even up the scores. Except, DJ kept finishing while everyone
else landed out. Going into the end of the contest, DJ had close to
a full day's 1000 point lead, and it seemed like the organizers finally
gave up on trying to get him to land out. He succeeded in
absolutely blowing the world's best 15m pilots right out of the water
in a very convincing fashion. There was no more snickering at the
closing ceremonies, and I know that several other nation's teams
went home pretty mad about their own poor performances. I know
that the French used their poor performance at Rieti as a stimulus
to build up their team, which has been a juggernaut since Austria in
1989... The German, British and Polish teams seem to have done
the same as well.... The team flying landscape has drastically
changed with all of this too. It makes the typical "lone eagle" type
pilot's (which objective selection methods might tend to produce)
chances of doing well smaller and smaller - as I see it anyway...
As you said, "We're in a pickle."

RO