ASW 20 Handling Issues?

I owned WA - Wally Scott's ASW20 for a number of years. It was a while before I discovered he had secreted large amounts of lead in the wings and tail and that the W&B data was completely fictitious. I can confirm that with a CG well aft of the factory permitted range it can depart into a spin quickly and viciously!

With the lead removed and the CG returned to the permitted range, I never experienced another problem. There were reports of a tendency to spin when the "Jesus" landing flap position of early ASW20s was selected, but this again was not a problem I encountered.

Mike

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 9:59:38 AM UTC-6, Mike the Strike wrote:
I owned WA - Wally Scott's ASW20 for a number of years. It was a while before I discovered he had secreted large amounts of lead in the wings and tail and that the W&B data was completely fictitious. I can confirm that with a CG well aft of the factory permitted range it can depart into a spin quickly and viciously!

With the lead removed and the CG returned to the permitted range, I never experienced another problem. There were reports of a tendency to spin when the "Jesus" landing flap position of early ASW20s was selected, but this again was not a problem I encountered.

Mike

I think the departures that occur in the "Jesus" landing flap position result from pilots realizing too late that they are coming up short and getting too slow in an attempt to make the landing area. My advice to new 20a drivers: If you are going to use full landing flap, don't aim for the near end. Choose a touchdown point in the middle of your chosen landing area!

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 11:31:34 AM UTC-5, WB wrote:
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 9:59:38 AM UTC-6, Mike the Strike wrote:
I owned WA - Wally Scott's ASW20 for a number of years. It was a while before I discovered he had secreted large amounts of lead in the wings and tail and that the W&B data was completely fictitious. I can confirm that with a CG well aft of the factory permitted range it can depart into a spin quickly and viciously!

With the lead removed and the CG returned to the permitted range, I never experienced another problem. There were reports of a tendency to spin when the "Jesus" landing flap position of early ASW20s was selected, but this again was not a problem I encountered.

Mike

I think the departures that occur in the "Jesus" landing flap position result from pilots realizing too late that they are coming up short and getting too slow in an attempt to make the landing area. My advice to new 20a drivers: If you are going to use full landing flap, don't aim for the near end. Choose a touchdown point in the middle of your chosen landing area!

When i bought my 20c i was instructed by HW to not pull landing flaps until after turning final, both because the stall departure is more sudden and severe, and because you have to be high as hell on base to need landing flaps already.

Obviously in an A model this is even more prounounced.

as far as spinning in flight, we've got ours at 80%, and i have had it break into a spin entry a time or two, but only when i was really muscling the glider around in a thermal. normally it totally behaves. i wouldn't call it any worse than another glider. if you're at the aft limit though, obviously all bets are off...

Anyone purchasing an ASW 20A (actually, ANY glider), should query the previous owner (and assess his/her weight--hopefully without insulting them!), inspect the logbook and placards, and then do a full weight and balance to check the CG before flying it.

Recognizing that this latter time-consuming step may not be done by everyone immediately, at a minimum, inspect the tail for lead weights. In more recent gliders, there's often a battery compartment at the top of the vertical fin. The lead in my ASW 24 lives below the battery there so inspect carefully.

In older gliders, lead was added by removing the rudder and bolting it in the lower fin area. I removed the lead I had installed in my LS 3 when I sold it even though the new owner weighed more than I did. There's a lo-o-o-o-o-ng moment arm all the way back there so a small amount of weight has a fairly significant effect on the CG. It may be difficult or impossible to inspect for this without removing the rudder. Also, weight may have been added to the tailwheel or (in one case I'm aware of) in the tailwheel area itself

Obviously the CG can also be too far forward. I've seen lead weights in the nose installed by lighter pilots. But the too-far-aft CG seems to be more common and insidious.

The rule for CG is: take nothing for granted, even from the factory. I recently spoke with a very careful, highly analytical friend who discovered--after an alarming first flight--that the minimum cockpit weight for his new glider was far higher with the longer wingtips installed than with the short tips.

Taking your CG for granted can be fatal. I am familiar with at least one such stall/spin crash where CG may have been a factor.

Chip Bearden

Very true. I took delivery of a new V2C that was supposed to be adjusted for my weight at the factory. Flew without re-weighting glider. First flight was a great soaring day, thank goodness, took about fours to be able to control glider between 45 - 75 knots. Turns out the tail weight was supposed to be 5 pounds, but factory put in 5 KG! Felt like trying to wrestle a greased pig.

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 9:11:55 AM UTC-8, wrote:
Anyone purchasing an ASW 20A (actually, ANY glider), should query the previous owner (and assess his/her weight--hopefully without insulting them!), inspect the logbook and placards, and then do a full weight and balance to check the CG before flying it.

Recognizing that this latter time-consuming step may not be done by everyone immediately, at a minimum, inspect the tail for lead weights. In more recent gliders, there's often a battery compartment at the top of the vertical fin. The lead in my ASW 24 lives below the battery there so inspect carefully.

In older gliders, lead was added by removing the rudder and bolting it in the lower fin area. I removed the lead I had installed in my LS 3 when I sold it even though the new owner weighed more than I did. There's a lo-o-o-o-o-ng moment arm all the way back there so a small amount of weight has a fairly significant effect on the CG. It may be difficult or impossible to inspect for this without removing the rudder. Also, weight may have been added to the tailwheel or (in one case I'm aware of) in the tailwheel area itself

Obviously the CG can also be too far forward. I've seen lead weights in the nose installed by lighter pilots. But the too-far-aft CG seems to be more common and insidious.

The rule for CG is: take nothing for granted, even from the factory. I recently spoke with a very careful, highly analytical friend who discovered--after an alarming first flight--that the minimum cockpit weight for his new glider was far higher with the longer wingtips installed than with the short tips.

Taking your CG for granted can be fatal. I am familiar with at least one such stall/spin crash where CG may have been a factor.

Chip Bearden